Let’s put that one down as bad day at the office

[WarksRobin]

10 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Mediocracy is what we do best .

 

Blame beanhead 

[Major Isewater]

19 minutes ago, WarksRobin said:

Blame beanhead 

Subtle . 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

2 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

He had a bad game, yes. 

But he is our back up centre half now. It was him or Mags. Either that or start maligning even more changes by moving Wright and bringing in an inexperienced RB. 

In hindsight it didn’t work out. Hegeler was terrible! But the initial selection made sense with Baker being ill. 

Spot on.  It wasn’t an awful decision, it was a decision that didn’t work out.  Johnson made it clear on that Magnússon has been training as a left back.  I would have had Bailey Wright at Centre half and Vyner at right back, but Hegeler deserved a chance. Sadly I don’t think Hegeler is good enough for the Championship, in any position.

I think Wright will go to central defence on Tuesday, though given that we have to deal with Townsend and Zaha that would be a big night for Bryan and Vyner.

[BigTone]

Hey ho.  We are never going to win every game in a season but as long as we can learn from what happened yesterday then maybe its a not such a bad thing. Onwards and upwards.

[Major Isewater]

I have digested the disappointment a bit and now know that there were injury and illness issues in the camp although I still think LJ got it wrong . 

What makes it hard to take is that we had a big crowd and failed to perform , compete or even score a consolation goal to give the wonderful City fans something to cheer and encourage the floating fans to come again.

We fluffed our lines big time and all the uncomfortable feelings that come with being a City supporter came flooding back .

Leeds played like we've been playing up until now .

High pressing, hunting down the ball in packs when out of possession, direct fast attacking moves , agressive never say die defending , quick interpassing , confident game management,all this was missing from our team yesterday .

 I hope this is really just a blip . 

[Dr Balls]

I agree that we shouldn't over-react to our first defeat in 2 months. However in parts we were so bad that a review of both players and tactics is needed. 

We played some neat football at times, keeping possession, but we got bossed in the middle of the pitch when each team had 11 on the pitch. We created few real goal-scoring chances and we certainly didn't test their keeper. Our attempts on target were so tame he didn't even have to move to deal with them.

The team selection for Tuesday will be interesting, considering that we have another 4 games in the next 2 weeks that will set the tone for how we head into the winter. A confidence-boosting victory on Tuesday would be a good start. The opportunity to make it to the quarter finals of the League Cup should be enough of a prize to motivate the players, especially against a Palace team struggling in the Premier League. However the parallels with Hull last season are uncanny...

[spudski]

10 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

It's more than a bad day at the office. It exposes the lie doing the rounds before this game that we had strength in depth this season. It's a welcome reality check. Take two or three key players out the picture and we look dreadful.

Let's not dress it up. Leeds didn't deserve to win 3-0 today. But they deserved to win. No doubt about who was the better team out there.

Work to do in January....

I think this is a problem LJ has in keeping certain squad players happy.

Someone else said that Woodrow and Leko were cup tied, so couldn't be included on Tuesday. I would love to know whether they were in LJ's thoughts as starters for this game, before the Baker injury and Patterson illness.

3 forced changes in Baker, Smith and Patterson. Were the extra two necessary?

5 changes in all, with 3 players that have hardly played all season. It was never going to gel imo.

Unfortunately Baker will be out for 2-3 weeks with ligament damage.

If I were LJ, I'd be playing Pisano if fit, at RB on Tuesday to get him up to speed.

Wright back at CB. Magners in JB's position. JB moved up into Patto's position.

Personally....I think we are truly screwed in the CM positions. Not enough quality for me. Only needs a knock to Pack or Brownhill now and God knows what we'd do.

 

[Red-Robbo]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

I think this is a problem LJ has in keeping certain squad players happy.

Someone else said that Woodrow and Leko were cup tied, so couldn't be included on Tuesday. I would love to know whether they were in LJ's thoughts as starters for this game, before the Baker injury and Patterson illness.

3 forced changes in Baker, Smith and Patterson. Were the extra two necessary?

5 changes in all, with 3 players that have hardly played all season. It was never going to gel imo.

Unfortunately Baker will be out for 2-3 weeks with ligament damage.

If I were LJ, I'd be playing Pisano if fit, at RB on Tuesday to get him up to speed.

Wright back at CB. Magners in JB's position. JB moved up into Patto's position.

Personally....I think we are truly screwed in the CM positions. Not enough quality for me. Only needs a knock to Pack or Brownhill now and God knows what we'd do.

 

Spot on, Spud.

We were crying out for a midfielder to come off the bench yesterday and help shore up that battle. But we didn't have one.

It shows, as I'm sure others have said, the unappreciated work Korey does and his importance just being there. A body filling that big gap before the defensive players.

[spudski]

1 minute ago, Red-Robbo said:

Spot on, Spud.

We were crying out for a midfielder to come off the bench yesterday and help shore up that battle. But we didn't have one.

It shows, as I'm sure others have said, the unappreciated work Korey does and his importance just being there. A body filling that big gap before the defensive players.

I'm not Smiths biggest fan, but we were crying out for him yesterday, for all the things that he can do well.

We need that CM added in January big time imo.

As for Leko...I've seen enough of him now, to make me think he'd be good as an impact sub, but not starting and leaving such huge gaps in midfield.

[Chappers]

It's the nature of the Championship, nothing is predictable, and after a good start we've had two disappointing results. Teams have got used to our style of play, maybe we're not there yet as a top 6 side, whole manner of reasons. All of yesterday's team have previously performed well, and have not become poor players overnight. Tough run of games ahead, see how we go. Tuesday may be a chance for fringe players to stake a claim. I blame the International break!!!!

[Red-Robbo]

16 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'm not Smiths biggest fan, but we were crying out for him yesterday, for all the things that he can do well.

We need that CM added in January big time imo.

As for Leko...I've seen enough of him now, to make me think he'd be good as an impact sub, but not starting and leaving such huge gaps in midfield.

I don't think you can criticise Leko without saying he was also one of the few players in the first half to actually win ground and threaten their box. Bob just wasn't breaking through. COD didn't get anywhere dangerous and Woodrow ran a lot but didn't achieve anything whatsoever. That said, i think you're right that we'll be seeing him more as a sub than a starter in future. You can see his natural talent, but his decision taking - hold or release, which way to turn, is all wrong at times. A sign of inexperience.  

In assessing the MF gap I was just saying to someone, that while it would be nice to get a Midfield "general" like Tinnion or a cultured "distributor" like Hartley, I'd be happy with a midfield warrior like Marvin Elliot - not the most talented of players, but big, difficult to get past and able to charge up the field when they leave a gap.

[Swede]

Yes a bad day at the office and as someone has pointed out I don't think Woodrow, Leko or Hegerler did themselves any favours.

Woodrow didn't get the service but couldn't hold up anything or was simply out muscled.

I thought Leko was too loose in his play.He is very talented without a doubt but needs to work harder.

Both are cup tied for Tuesday.

Hegerler is fast becoming an enigma.A classy footballer with good technical ability but LJ sees him as a central defender which he is not.I am not sure when he will feature again as I'm not sure LJ would want to risk it in the league.

With a few injuries it shows we can't change much.

As much as Leeds were good on the day I think every fan knows we can play a lot, lot better than that.

[RedRobin13]

Have seen a lot of people saying that Johnson got it wrong and should have played BW at centre back and not Hegeler. 

Personally I think if Pisano had been fit then he would have done this but I don’t think he wanted one of the best players in the league in Samuel Saiz against a relatively inexperienced RB in Zak Vyner.

For those who wanted Wright in the middle would you have had confidence to play Vyner at RB or is it more about suring up the middle of the park?

[Major Isewater]

On the subject of Leko , I noticed several times he was late getting back to help the defence.

It was though he felt comfortable that we'd deal with it and was waiting for the out ball .

As said he's still very young and has talent .

[spudski]

35 minutes ago, Swede said:

Yes a bad day at the office and as someone has pointed out I don't think Woodrow, Leko or Hegerler did themselves any favours.

Woodrow didn't get the service but couldn't hold up anything or was simply out muscled.

I thought Leko was too loose in his play.He is very talented without a doubt but needs to work harder.

Both are cup tied for Tuesday.

Hegerler is fast becoming an enigma.A classy footballer with good technical ability but LJ sees him as a central defender which he is not.I am not sure when he will feature again as I'm not sure LJ would want to risk it in the league.

With a few injuries it shows we can't change much.

As much as Leeds were good on the day I think every fan knows we can play a lot, lot better than that.

I said to someone yesterday, that I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see Hegeler ever in a City shirt again.

LJ took him off directly after the third went in, it was so noticeable that he blamed him for the third goal from a header at the corner. Perhaps he should look again and watch Brownhill instead. Words were exchanged as he went off...it didn't look like 'Fancy coming round for Sunday dinner Jens'....

I've never understood LJ's comment, that he was going to build the team around Hegeler.

For me...he's not a CB. But a holding defensive midfielder, with an eye for a pass and ability to come out with the ball. He won his fair share of headers in that position yesterday. There was a passage of play where he swapped positions with Pack, he immediately looked more confident and better in that slightly higher position. He isn't the last man of defence you want imo.

Shame...I think he has Talent...LJ just doesn't want to use him in his best position imo. He linked up play well when he went forward yesterday, and nearly scored from a header. Playing him at CB is wasting his natural talent.

[paulcityfan]

Yes Hegeler was poor all game.  But as a team we were not in it from the first kick.  Our midfield was non-existant and it was only when we switched players around for the last 15 minutes of the first half when Leeds hadn't worked that out that yet, that we looked anything like the team that was unbeaten in 12 games.  Pack looked slow. O'Dowda needs to look up more when he crosses with a target rather than a hope. Reed was kicked around the park by Leeds all afternoon and was not his usual self, getting no service except a few high balls that were far too ahead of him.  If his header had gone in and made in 2-1 we may have had a chance to re-organise for the second half. 
I thought in the weather conditions we should have kept it on the ground and slipped it through, thats where the Leeds big defenders may have come unstuck, but we didn't and kept lumping it.  Leko and Reed were pace enough.  

Leeds bossed the entire game in a way that was quite embarrassing. The City team selection was not right for the opposition and the style of play was wrong in those windy and wet conditions. The commitment to win tackles was clear to see in leeds determination and they seemed to want it more than we did, all game. 

On the positives. I thought Magnússon was more than alright when he came on and didn't do anything particularly wrong.  Flint was immense as usual but made some mistakes for their first 2 goals.  The last 10 mins of the first half we looked like we might have been coming back into it but it was brief.

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

I said to someone yesterday, that I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't see Hegeler ever in a City shirt again.

LJ took him off directly after the third went in, it was so noticeable that he blamed him for the third goal from a header at the corner. Perhaps he should look again and watch Brownhill instead. Words were exchanged as he went off...it didn't look like 'Fancy coming round for Sunday dinner Jens'....

I've never understood LJ's comment, that he was going to build the team around Hegeler.

For me...he's not a CB. But a holding defensive midfielder, with an eye for a pass and ability to come out with the ball. He won his fair share of headers in that position yesterday. There was a passage of play where he swapped positions with Pack, he immediately looked more confident and better in that slightly higher position. He isn't the last man of defence you want imo.

Shame...I think he has Talent...LJ just doesn't want to use him in his best position imo. He linked up play well when he went forward yesterday, and nearly scored from a header. Playing him at CB is wasting his natural talent.

Trouble is, when we played him in a defensive MF role, he wasn't much kop. I wouldn't mind pushing him up a bit further into a sort of central role. He does like to have the odd run forward. And as we both have said, we've got no options there other than Korey.

Spot on (again!) about the goal. Brownhill allowed the #9 to escape him. However Jens didn't jump for some reason. The ball went over his head and gave the German fella (who I thought had otherwise been poor) a free pop at goal.

At least that goal was a proper worked corner routine. The first was a bit flukey, albeit we were still asleep. The second was just bizarre. Flint, Hegeler and Fielding all appear to just fall over and there was the net billowing for Saiz who, although being a good player, is also a despicable little nurk. As they'd say in Porridge.

[steviestevieneville]

13 hours ago, Red-Robbo said:

It's more than a bad day at the office. It exposes the lie doing the rounds before this game that we had strength in depth this season. It's a welcome reality check. Take two or three key players out the picture and we look dreadful.

Let's not dress it up. Leeds didn't deserve to win 3-0 today. But they deserved to win. No doubt about who was the better team out there.

Work to do in January....

It was four players, and four of our best players. Any team in world football would struggle without their better players. 

[spudski]

9 minutes ago, paulcityfan said:

Yes Hegeler was poor all game.  But as a team we were not in it from the first kick.  Our midfield was non-existant and it was only when we switched players around for the last 15 minutes of the first half when Leeds hadn't worked that out that yet, that we looked anything like the team that was unbeaten in 12 games.  Pack looked slow. O'Dowda needs to look up more when he crosses with a target rather than a hope. Reed was kicked around the park by Leeds all afternoon and was not his usual self, getting no service except a few high balls that were far too ahead of him.  If his header had gone in and made in 2-1 we may have had a chance to re-organise for the second half. 
I thought in the weather conditions we should have kept it on the ground and slipped it through, thats where the Leeds big defenders may have come unstuck, but we didn't and kept lumping it.  Leko and Reed were pace enough.  

Leeds bossed the entire game in a way that was quite embarrassing. The City team selection was not right for the opposition and the style of play was wrong in those windy and wet conditions. The commitment to win tackles was clear to see in leeds determination and they seemed to want it more than we did, all game. 

On the positives. I thought Magnússon was more than alright when he came on and didn't do anything particularly wrong.  Flint was immense as usual but made some mistakes for their first 2 goals.  The last 10 mins of the first half we looked like we might have been coming back into it but it was brief.

I thought Flint had a poor game...which didn't help Hegeler get into the game and feel confident. Our positioning, especially for the second goal was poor from most of our defensive players.

We were battered in midfield... LJ made the mistake of playing with two wingers imo. All their efforts came to nothing and left us wanting in the middle of the park when everything got cleared up from their delivery.

If you play with wingers and their crosses get blocked or headed out, straight away you have space behind the winger to expose and put the midfield under pressure. This is why i'm not fond of playing wingers...what's the point of beating your man, if 9 times out of 10, your delivery doesn't find your man. It just leaves you under constant pressure with players out of position.

It's a fools game at this level imo.

Yesterday with Leko, reminded how much it was like when we relied on Adomah so much.  Beat your man...pass...blocked, straight back under pressure again.

[Red-Robbo]

Just now, steviestevieneville said:

It was four players, and four of our best players. Any team in world football would struggle without their better players. 

Quite. As I say, it shows more than just "poor game for us, good game for them". It shows our supposed strong bench is not quite what some people have cracked it up to be.

[Drew Peacock]

2 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

 

What makes it hard to take is that we had a big crowd and failed to perform , compete or even score a consolation goal to give the wonderful City fans something to cheer and encourage the floating fans to come again.

 

Traditional City.  I can't remember the number of times we have had some good results, get a bumper crowd in and fail to perform; has been going on since I started watching City.

[steviestevieneville]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Quite. As I say, it shows more than just "poor game for us, good game for them". It shows our supposed strong bench is not quite what some people have cracked it up to be.

Lack of depth in centre midfield worry me more than anything . Mistake playing Jens at centre half yesterday but generally we’ve got good cover there. Leko has a lot to learn as does Elliasson . We’re Stronger from the bench than last season and need to keep progressing on that. Main problem for me though is the lack of chances created in the last two games. 

[paulcityfan]

28 minutes ago, spudski said:

I thought Flint had a poor game...which didn't help Hegeler get into the game and feel confident. Our positioning, especially for the second goal was poor from most of our defensive players.

We were battered in midfield... LJ made the mistake of playing with two wingers imo. All their efforts came to nothing and left us wanting in the middle of the park when everything got cleared up from their delivery.

If you play with wingers and their crosses get blocked or headed out, straight away you have space behind the winger to expose and put the midfield under pressure. This is why i'm not fond of playing wingers...what's the point of beating your man, if 9 times out of 10, your delivery doesn't find your man. It just leaves you under constant pressure with players out of position.

It's a fools game at this level imo.

Yesterday with Leko, reminded how much it was like when we relied on Adomah so much.  Beat your man...pass...blocked, straight back under pressure again.

Yes agree about the wing play yesterday.  It really looked like the homework on the opposition had simply not been done at all for this one.

[054123]

Another point on the learning curve for Lee?

Hopefully he took something out of today which will help us in the future.

I've really enjoyed us this season but we are not brilliant and won't finish top 2. 

At least now we have a home loss out if the way and can bench Mark ourselves on how we improve.

[Phileas Fogg]

Maybe some missed it, but the situation with Paterson is a bit concerning.

LJ said after the game that Paterson has been in hospital on a drip all week due to a virus. 

I imagine it'll take him weeks to get fit and firing again - it must be relatively serious for him to be hospitalised.

He's not the biggest guy anyway and he might lose some weight and strength as a result.

Hope he's back soon because he's really important in how we play. No wonder we kept that quiet for as long as possible.

[Lanterne Rouge]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Maybe some missed it, but the situation with Paterson is a bit concerning.

LJ said after the game that Paterson has been in hospital on a drip all week due to a virus. 

I imagine it'll take him weeks to get fit and firing again - it must be relatively serious for him to be hospitalised.

He's not the biggest guy anyway and he might lose some weight and strength as a result.

Hope he's back soon because he's really important in how we play. No wonder we kept that quiet for as long as possible.

It does seem to have been glossed over a bit doesn`t it? Remember David Clarkson? It was some sort of virus that laid him up for weeks and we never really saw anything from him afterwards. Let`s hope Pato`s isn`t that bad.

The other thing to consider is that he`s one of the most popular members of the squad so was there a bit of worry out there yesterday with minds not totally on the job perhaps?

[cidered abroad]

The big learning curve at BCFC continues and we'll await signs that coaches and players have learned from yesterday's miserable defeat. As others have said elsewhere, typical Bristol City, get a few good results, bring the punters back with some hope and drop us like a ton of bricks into The Cut.

None of the following is intended as a slagging for anyone. Coaches continue to learn, I hope, and so too the players although some at City, in my opinion, have reached the zenith of their careers at this level. And neither do I have any inside information about who trained well and who didn't in the last week.

Firstly, I found the team selection to be muddled. Given that we had lost three of our best players, Baker, Smith and Paterson, to make another change of Woodrow for Diedhiou seems illogical. Unless, of course, something else we don't know about.

I regard Jens Hegeler as a cultured footballer, who imo, did reasonably well in the back four until his lack of match time, began to tell after an hour. I prefer him in midfield anyway. So my back four would have been, Vyner, Flint, Wright and Bryan, giving us a central pairing that have played together often. Vyner is also a bit better than Wright at going forward.

It's well known where I sit that Pack isn't my favourite player, so Hegeler with Brownhill. Or even a midfield four of O'Dowda on the left, Hegeler, Pack and Brownhill on the right. Leko clearly has a lot of talent but appears to me to be way behind the match nous that Tammy gave to us last season. And O'Dowda must learn to run at full backs instead of turning back or cutting inside on almost every occasion. Although when he does that, he'll be gobbled up by a Premier club.

The front two should have been our leading scorers of Bobby and Fammy.

As for the game itself, we did almost zero high pressing. In fact we became the oppressed as the Leeds manager had his team at it right from the kick off. How many more teams will have worked us out, is a concern. I would pray, if I was not an atheist, that this game was a bad blip but something tells me that others could do to us what Leeds did yesterday; make us look very ordinary.

Of the team, Wright, Bryan and Brownhill did a reasonable job but the rest could take a good look at themselves and ask if they could have done better. As for Taylor, whether he butted the Leeds player or not, it is stupid to stick ones face into an opponent's face as it leaves the referee with only one option!

All in all, yesterday was a lesson and an awakening that, while we can all dream of top six and I'm just as guilty of that as are many others, the reality is that if we finish between 8th and 15th, it will be considered as good progress.  

 

[cidered abroad]

1 hour ago, Red Right Hand said:

It does seem to have been glossed over a bit doesn`t it? Remember David Clarkson? It was some sort of virus that laid him up for weeks and we never really saw anything from him afterwards. Let`s hope Pato`s isn`t that bad.

The other thing to consider is that he`s one of the most popular members of the squad so was there a bit of worry out there yesterday with minds not totally on the job perhaps?

I was told by someone yesterday that Pato had a flu jab on last Monday and had a bad reaction to it.

[Lanterne Rouge]

5 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I was told by someone yesterday that Pato had a flu jab on last Monday and had a bad reaction to it.

Some people do. I have one every year and it feels like I`ve been hit across the back with a cricket bat for a couple of days. Nothing like as bad as Pato`s though it seems!

The trouble is, the vaccine changes every year to combat whatever is the prevalent strain so there really is no way of telling how some people will react to each one.