Does O'Driscoll deserve some credit ?

[Robin1988]

58 minutes ago, Tomarse said:

SOD who questioned the transfer fee of Flint... 

Didn't we all?

SO'D deserves some credit yes. He brought in the likes of Pack, Williams, Fielding, Flint... Three of those are still first-teamers and the other was a regular in our promotion season.

There is a distinguishment between laying foundations and building on them though. His tactics and motivational skills were tripe and needed someone like Cotts to turn us into a decent side.

[Kid in the Riot]

16 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

Didn't we all?

SO'D deserves some credit yes. He brought in the likes of Pack, Williams, Fielding, Flint... Three of those are still first-teamers and the other was a regular in our promotion season.

There is a distinguishment between laying foundations and building on them though. His tactics and motivational skills were tripe and needed someone like Cotts to turn us into a decent side.

No coincidence the pair of them worked very well together at Forest. Can see how they'd complement each other well.

37 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

It does make me smile, though, as SL is cheered for his strength in the face of poor results and supporter unrest/disappearing crowds: and that "noisy" fans clamouring for Johnson's head last winter were the "problem" with this club, etc.

Steve has "hired and fired" himself before and played his part in that culture, as well as bucking that trend with LJ. I know this will upset some posters, but is it true? I think it is.

Haha good point, well made 

[Guest]

37 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Interesting. He was here for one transfer window. One full summer transfer window. 

And eleven months in total.

The man that fired him - after one defeat in seven - now is lauded for his patience and backing of his managers! It's a funny old game.....

And the miserable SO'D was implementing the pillars at the time, fully supportive of the new direction the club was heading in, in terms of "philosophy" and so on.

He played Bobby Reid a lot.

But the "outcomes," on the pitch, were dire. This is true.

It does make me smile, though, as SL is cheered for his strength in the face of poor results and supporter unrest/disappearing crowds: and that "noisy" fans clamouring for Johnson's head last winter were the "problem" with this club, etc.

Steve has "hired and fired" himself before and played his part in that culture, as well as bucking that trend with LJ. I know this will upset some posters, but is it true? I think it is.

 

He was here long enough was solely in reference to behind the scenes matters. I appreciate in respect of football transfers he had little time indeed. And some will say he was a success in the transfer market because of how Flint, Pack and Fielding grew... but I don't accept he can be said to have had a big influence in improving those seeing as they only started threatening to improve about 6 months after he left.

As for Bobby Reid, I mean not sure that shows much, if anything no more than LVG turning to Marcus Rashford for instance.

I reckon LJ probably is a beneficiary of being given extra time though.

[Buster Footman's T shirt]

Think it is fair to say that in terms of first team results and performances then he was dismal. We really plumbed the depths. Even worse than under Pulis. The Gate was lifeless and O Dismal seemed a dead man walking. The 'stupid question' interview was a particular low point.

However the background of austerity and the state of the first team squad when he arrived. Cannot be attributed to him. A lot of the chaff was shipped out under his watch and he also was in-situ when the 5 pillars were rolled out. So fair to say that year zero of the 'new improved' BCFC was under his stewardship. Having said all that I was relieved when he left although was under enamoured at the time with Cotts' appointment.....hindsight is a wonderful thing. UTC

[ashton_fan]

The problem was the team's build-up play was so slow that the opposition always had time to get back and organise themselves, a bit like the England team but with worse players. However he only had one transfer window and signed Fielding, Pack, Flint who are all still in the side and JET who played a big part in our L1 promotion. If he'd been given the January window I don't think we'd have been relegated but I can't see how he could have done better than Cotts from that point on.

He also implemented a lot of changes with the coaching and training set-up which are probably still relevant now so I think he made a contribution to where we are now.

[myol'man]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Ok , all is rosy in the garden . We've stared at the abyss and come through .

We've had more ups and downs than a whore's g-string and now we're sitting pretty.

There is one man in particular who gets very bad press on OTIB but is the time right to perhaps look at his contribution to our present standing ?

Firstly , I believe his personality was not suited to our club . He came across as a dour , miserable sort and the City faithful had difficulty getting over this and listening to the messages that he was giving out.

The team seemed to reflect the quiet , unassuming nature of the head coach and the crowds watched in despair as we sunk without a fight.

However , here it is folks ! , SOD instigated the policy that sees us fourth in the Championship and I believe he ruffled enough feathers at the club to

a) make Lansdown réalise that the club needed investment in the direction , coaching and scouting set up and

b) Get himself fired by his cussedness.

Now this won't be popular as a thread I'm sure but I would like to think that , after all , we could be a little bit more respectful of the man and what he tried to achieve here .

as no one else has said it yet;

 

Stupid Question  

[spudski]

Think this subject has been done to death over the years, but yes the OP is right, SoD implemented a lot of changes at this Club that enabled us to be where we are now.

I think over the years he's found out himself that he's not a 'manager' in the traditional sense...but a great coach, especially with the youngsters.

He may come across as dour when being interviewed by the media, but he's one of the most passionate people you will meet when talking about football. And will also go out of his way to help people out, talk and give advice and his time. He also listens...is open to advice and ideas.

I know this...seen it first hand on many occasions.

Unfortunately many fans only judge a coach or manager by the results and performances on the pitch, even if it's just part of a season.

They don't know anything about what's happening behind the scenes....and how that can effect what's happening on the pitch.

Alex Ferguson said, 'results and performances on the pitch, often reflect the health of the club behind the scenes'....which is very true.

Sometimes Clubs really need a wake up call and to  be shaken to the core. Only stupid one's keep doing the same thing over and over again and failing.

When that shake up happens...often Clubs go backwards. Swansea and Southampton come to mind. A transition period is needed.

Unfortunately some fans don't want to know...and will even brush aside the truth if it doesn't suit them.

I spoke to a City fan recently after the match against Leeds. The were wittering on about who was playing...and when told the reasons why...injuries etc, they just ignored it, and still had a dig at the manager for not playing those injured players. Sometimes you do wonder....

[Red-Robbo]

1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

Ok , all is rosy in the garden . We've stared at the abyss and come through .

We've had more ups and downs than a whore's g-string and now we're sitting pretty.

There is one man in particular who gets very bad press on OTIB but is the time right to perhaps look at his contribution to our present standing ?

Firstly , I believe his personality was not suited to our club . He came across as a dour , miserable sort and the City faithful had difficulty getting over this and listening to the messages that he was giving out.

The team seemed to reflect the quiet , unassuming nature of the head coach and the crowds watched in despair as we sunk without a fight.

However , here it is folks ! , SOD instigated the policy that sees us fourth in the Championship and I believe he ruffled enough feathers at the club to

a) make Lansdown réalise that the club needed investment in the direction , coaching and scouting set up and

b) Get himself fired by his cussedness.

Now this won't be popular as a thread I'm sure but I would like to think that , after all , we could be a little bit more respectful of the man and what he tried to achieve here .

SOD did nothing to bring forward talented youngsters here. He talked a lot about a gentle progression and long-term plans to improve the club, but that was his code for "don't expect me to start winning matches soon because I don't have a clue what I'm doing".

He is a snake oil salesman who a few were daft enough to buy into. The fact he's only had one, swiftly terminated, managerial post since his debacle here says it all. 

And he wasn't sacked for his objectionable personality. He sacked for taking us to the bottom of the League One and rooting us there. We were - at the time - a side with one of the largest budgets in that division.

[Steve Watts]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

The Club needed a reset, we had been riding our luck for a few years and it wasn’t sustainable. We couldn’t buy our way out of trouble with journeymen forever.

Sure, he wasn’t the most affable character and the results weren’t good at the time. I feel though that’s hes had a big hand in changing the philosophy here and unfortunately had to do this during a period of austerity when we were at a low ebb. 

I think people look at the short term picture here and look at results over a period of a few games. SO’D was appalled by many aspects of the club - scouting, player identification, the youth set up etc and set the ball rolling to improve all of those aspects - something we’re reaping the benefits from now imo.

The point is that he signed them during a period of austerity and they’ve become Championship players. He only had half a season to work with those players so it’s folly to compare how they progressed under a different manager.

I recall SOD saying at the time that he was tasked with relaying the foundations of the club and also did say that he would probably fall victim to the large changes to the club before he had a chance to realise it.  His style of football is what caused him to "fall victim", but he was right.  The amount of change needed within the club was huge and he was the one who implemented the five pillars which have led us to where we are now. 

Also  worth noting that said five pillars, which I think most rational City fans would wholeheartedly agree have led us to where we are as  a club now. were something that Cotts didn't buy into.  At all.  After he went, the philosophy came back to the fore and is the reason that LJ is still with us now.  Those pillars needed to be stabilised before they could be fully built on.  

Was SoD a good team manager for us?  Absolutely not.  However, is his impact as more of a General Manager being felt today?  Unquestionably so in my opinion.  He drove a lot of mindset changes and we are now finally reaping the benefits of what has been built on what he started.

15 minutes ago, Buster Footman's T shirt said:

The 'stupid question' interview was a particular low point.

In fairness it was a stupid question he was asked!

[spudski]

Interesting article from 2 days ago, where they suggest Forest should never have gotten rid of SoD.

http://www.nottinghampost.com/sport/football/football-news/remember-odriscoll-nottingham-forest-must-643096

He had a plan...similar to what LJ is doing now. You need time to implement it. On the way you may have poor results, performances or even relegation. But given time it will come good. Clubs don't give managers enough time.

He's still in football working with Wolverhampton's academy.

[Red-Robbo]

25 minutes ago, Buster Footman's T shirt said:

Think it is fair to say that in terms of first team results and performances then he was dismal. We really plumbed the depths. Even worse than under Pulis. The Gate was lifeless and O Dismal seemed a dead man walking. The 'stupid question' interview was a particular low point.

However the background of austerity and the state of the first team squad when he arrived. Cannot be attributed to him. A lot of the chaff was shipped out under his watch and he also was in-situ when the 5 pillars were rolled out. So fair to say that year zero of the 'new improved' BCFC was under his stewardship. Having said all that I was relieved when he left although was under enamoured at the time with Cotts' appointment.....hindsight is a wonderful thing. UTC

I have to say that watching SOD's direly tedious and sterile brand of "football" was the only time I've considered not renewing my ST. The empty seats appearing all over the Dolman told me that many had got there before me. I just couldn't take any more, even if we somehow fluked survival in L1, which wasn't likely as SOD believed he was doing nothing wrong.

City v Sheffield Utd was the only time in 5 decades of watching us that I've actually fallen asleep at a match.  

 

[EnderMB]

From my perspective, SOD was doomed the day he set foot in Ashton Gate.

He was another in a long line of head coaches that the board hired because they wanted a Yes Man to implement their Five Pillars philosophy into the club. I think he was a solid coach, and with a good team and the right amount of control he could probably do some great things, but the second he let his better judgement as a coach be controlled he was never going to last.

This is why I think Cotterill did so well. He wanted to be the manager, and he wanted control over transfers. He bucked the trend by signing some older players, and he had more hits than misses during that time.

[WTFiGO!?!]

Sadly for SO'D, football managers need a degree enough of relational skill to keep people on side when results and performances are disappointing.

Southampton sacked their manager last season on the grounds that he wasn't liked despite finishing 8th and achieving a league cup final appearance.  Allardyce had West Ham going better than they are now and a key criticism of Ronald Koeman was that he was aloof and did not connect with Evertonians.

S'OD openly slated the fans during the aftermath of the derby, conducted himself as a statue in the dug out and lost the plot with a journalist.

Rightly or wrongly, this was a significant factor during his tenure here. 

[Red-Robbo]

Nice to see some "true believers" still keeping the faith with their gormless guru.  Like Japanese soldiers still hiding in the jungle in the 1970s, it's time to admit the war is over guys! 

SOD came here with a reputation as a difficult character, but with a great ability in coaching. What we saw was players becoming slowly less capable, having the natural ability and aggression coached out of them, as they had to stick rigidly to his "a million passes" system that patently wasn't achieving results.

Even in the depths of the Johnson Out record breaking loss run we were not as poor a side as we were under the great thinker O'Driscoll. We looked unlucky on some occasions under Lee last season, but under SOD we looked like we couldn't buy a goal.

And I'm not kidding when I say I actually fell asleep at one of his games. 

Let's hope he manages to stuff up Wolves if they are daft enough to give him much say.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

25 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

SOD did nothing to bring forward talented youngsters here. He talked a lot about a gentle progression and long-term plans to improve the club, but that was his code for "don't expect me to start winning matches soon because I don't have a clue what I'm doing".

He is a snake oil salesman who a few were daft enough to buy into. The fact he's only had one, swiftly terminated, managerial post since his debacle here says it all. 

And he wasn't sacked for his objectionable personality. He sacked for taking us to the bottom of the League One and rooting us there. We were - at the time - a side with one of the largest budgets in that division.

I agree RR the saying smoke and mirrors was invented for SOD.

[Red-Robbo]

1 minute ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I agree RR the saying smoke and mirrors was invented for SOD.

Bullshit has certainly baffled a few brains on here.

Notably the ones who said Steve Cotterill would be a disaster.  

[BigAl&Toby]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Very impressive really, especially considering his budget was dependent on reducing the wage bill and selling our assets. 

All three players have had their critics but all three are still here and are first team players, they've all improved too which shows SO'D can identify potential in players.

Funny too how he's near enough the only manager to consistently get the best out of JET.. 

I’m with you Phileas. If he hadn’t swept through many aspects of the club we’d still be well and truly in the shit.

He enabled progression - even if he came across as a miserable bastard who didn’t bring success himself. To compare him to Osman or Pulis is nonsense.

I genuinely think we might, just might, be on the brink of something exciting. Perhaps not sustainable immediate but definite progress.

Who’d have thought in the depths of their winter despair last year that we’d be reflecting now on beating 3 PL clubs this season, getting excited about welcoming Jose to the Gate and being in with a shout of automatic promotion.

Enjoy the ride!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

2 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

Nice to see some "true believers" still keeping the faith with their gormless guru.  Like Japanese soldiers still hiding in the jungle in the 1970s, it's time to admit the war is over guys! 

SOD came here with a reputation as a difficult character, but with a great ability in coaching. What we saw was players becoming slowly less capable, having the natural ability and aggression coached out of them, as they had to stick rigidly to his "a million passes" system that patently wasn't achieving results.

Even in the depths of the Johnson Out record breaking loss run we were not as poor a side as we were under the great thinker O'Driscoll. We looked unlucky on some occasions under Lee last season, but under SOD we looked like we couldn't buy a goal.

And I'm not kidding when I say I actually fell asleep at one of his games. 

Let's hope he manages to stuff up Wolves if they are daft enough to give him much say.

Again I agree, SOD actually had his perfect job when in charge of the England under 19's, the job was tailor made for him IMHO.

He didn't have a non football chairman, worries about finances or even results to worry about, only churning out several players every now and again to step up into the full England team.

The bonus was he never had to spend 24/7 with his squad and confuse them too much.

[redfieldred]

Well done major you've managed to start a thread questioning virtually the only thing that everyone on otib ever agreed about. SOD being useless (for city anyway)

Ok major next start a thread revising our view on Steve Copell. 

[spudski]

Funny how some fans can be so insightful about a Coach and know all about him...yet the likes of Alex Ferguson, the FA, Brendan Rodgers to name a few, respect SoD as one of the best Coach's in the Country, and regularly ask him to help out British managers all the time....giving advise and consultancy.

Still those fans will know best, based on what they witnessed on the pitch when he was here.

Somehow I don't see all those eminent figures in football being conned....especially when you have to work so closely in football.

And guess who Cotts regularly turned to for coaching advice when he was here....SoD.

SoD isn't a manager...but he's a damn fine football Coach.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

The only three players he spent money on: Fielding £250k, Flint £300k, Pack £100k. Not a bad record...

Except he dropped Fielding for most of his first season (played 16 games under SOD) and didn't want Flint and my understanding was that he thought Pack was overpriced.

[One BCFC]

Yes I think he does deserve some credit. Lets not forget the god awful squad he inherited in 12/13 and had to start getting rid of them all. And lets not forget he got in Fielding, Flint, Pack, JET and Wagstaff. Was the first manager to regularly play Bryan, unfortunately he could not turn around our sinking ship but he is no where near our worst manager ever, that mantle is for Tony Pulis only.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, spudski said:

Funny how some fans can be so insightful about a Coach and know all about him...yet the likes of Alex Ferguson, the FA, Brendan Rodgers to name a few, respect SoD as one of the best Coach's in the Country, and regularly ask him to help out British managers all the time....giving advise and consultancy.

Still those fans will know best, based on what they witnessed on the pitch when he was here.

Somehow I don't see all those eminent figures in football being conned....especially when you have to work so closely in football.

And guess who Cotts regularly turned to for coaching advice when he was here....SoD.

SoD isn't a manager...but he's a damn fine football Coach.

I don't think that anybody is doubting the first paragraph.

The 2nd paragraph is just a bit silly, how else are fans of a club supposed to judge their manager/coach?, he was a disaster at BCFC and I don't recall massive improvement in players whilst he was here, I saw a lot of confused players.

As for the last sentence, you are correct and for the reasons that I set out in another post that is why the England under 19 job was perfect for him.

His tenure at BCFC reminds of Coppell's tenure (sadly much longer) but I don't actually think either of them really wanted the job in the first place but both were mesmerised/cajoled by SL but never looked happy ever.

[Redland]

2 hours ago, Tomarse said:

SOD who questioned the transfer fee of Flint... 

He more than questioned it. He publicly said he would have not paid the fee we paid for him - £350,000 if I remember correctly. 

[BCFC_Dan]

No. And I speak as a fan of SO'D.

The direction of travel was already in place before he was appointed. McInnes was tasked with cutting the wage budget and rebuilding the squad around young, cheap, hungry players, but he failed. O'Driscoll could, should and would, but for an injury to Jon Stead, have turned things round and kept them up, then perhaps gone on to better things, but that didn't happen. The rot was too deep, the negativity too much, and it needed more than good intentions and bright ideas. It was sort of like trying to build a beautiful building on a crumbling foundation and he was always fighting the negativity at the club. He simply didn't have the personality to fix that. Cotterill, by contrast, was a perfect fit to turn round a sinking ship. He simplified things, motivated, and rebuilt the foundations. He'll never build the most pleasing buildings, but he does a bloody good job of shoring up foundations.

I don't think O'Driscoll was a case of right man for the wrong club, I think it was just the right man at the wrong time and with problems that went too deep.

[Red-Robbo]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

Funny how some fans can be so insightful about a Coach and know all about him...yet the likes of Alex Ferguson, the FA, Brendan Rodgers to name a few, respect SoD as one of the best Coach's in the Country, and regularly ask him to help out British managers all the time....giving advise and consultancy.

Still those fans will know best, based on what they witnessed on the pitch when he was here.

Somehow I don't see all those eminent figures in football being conned....especially when you have to work so closely in football.

And guess who Cotts regularly turned to for coaching advice when he was here....SoD.

SoD isn't a manager...but he's a damn fine football Coach.

Ferguson and Rogers never had to sit through the pile of shite he served up during his time here - if they had they'd have revised their opinions no doubt.

Football coaches, like everyone, are only as good as their last job. They can't bank their rep based on what they may or may not have done in the distant past.

People's ability can decline. Players do and so can coaches. Particularly those who start believing their own publicity about being some sort of maven and genius. They might become over-rigid in their ideas, start to ignore the obvious and refuse to change course when it is obvious they are driving off a cliff. They are "highly regarded" after all. How dare such puny things as results come into it. 

We can never know if SOD would have "come good" eventually. Neither his advocates or detractors can say for sure.

What I'd stake my house on is if this sudden turnaround happened it would take place in L2 before crowds of 7K or less.

Anyway, you and I agree on one thing: we've had this debate many, many times before and everyone just goes round in circles.

There is no point in rehashing it again.

[spudski]

8 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I don't think that anybody is doubting the first paragraph.

The 2nd paragraph is just a bit silly, how else are fans of a club supposed to judge their manager/coach?, he was a disaster at BCFC and I don't recall massive improvement in players whilst he was here, I saw a lot of confused players.

As for the last sentence, you are correct and for the reasons that I set out in another post that is why the England under 19 job was perfect for him.

His tenure at BCFC reminds of Coppell's tenure (sadly much longer) but I don't actually think either of them really wanted the job in the first place but both were mesmerised/cajoled by SL but never looked happy ever.

You are correct EMB...it's hard for fans to judge the value of a coach, unless they know what's going on behind the scenes.

This is why so many managers get a raw deal by fans, as they have no idea as to what they are having to deal with.

This is why it works for some managers at certain clubs, but not others.

 

[Kid in the Riot]

29 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Except he dropped Fielding for most of his first season (played 16 games under SOD) and didn't want Flint and my understanding was that he thought Pack was overpriced.

Utter nonsense. McInnes didn't want Flint, hence we didn't sign him then. SOD wanted him, hence he signed him. Not rocket science. Never heard that re: Pack and believe me, I'd probably know. SOD opened the door to Pack to come on trial and was suitably impressed such that he decided to sign him. Maybe SOD was too honest in expressing a view that 'if it was his money he wouldn't have paid £300k for Flint' however that comment most certainly doesn't mean that he didn't want or rate the player - he did.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

8 minutes ago, spudski said:

You are correct EMB...it's hard for fans to judge the value of a coach, unless they know what's going on behind the scenes.

This is why so many managers get a raw deal by fans, as they have no idea as to what they are having to deal with.

This is why it works for some managers at certain clubs, but not others.

 

But it goes deeper than that and at BCFC the fans understand that more than most of the other 91 league clubs.

Back in the dark days of 1980 and 3 successive relegations and near extinction in 82, the fans stayed loyal because they knew exactly what was happening 'behind the scenes' but most importantly they stayed loyal because they knew that the board, manager, coaches  and especially the players were always giving 100%.

Under GJ near the end, Millen near the end, DMC near the end and for most of SOD's regime, I don't think anyone can claim that the players gave 100% and that is totally down to the manager/coach.

The difference for me is even though I thought LJ should have been sacked last season, I don't think that the players ever gave less than 100%, they were lacking in fitness, organisation and tactics and the fans will always forgive most things if the players are giving 100%. 

[Esmond Million's Bung]

4 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Utter nonsense. McInnes didn't want Flint, hence we didn't sign him then. SOD wanted him, hence he signed him. Not rocket science. Never heard that re: Pack and believe me, I'd probably know. SOD opened the door to Pack to come on trial and was suitably impressed such that he decided to sign him. Maybe SOD was too honest in expressing a view that 'if it was his money he wouldn't have paid £300k for Flint' however that comment most certainly doesn't mean that he didn't want or rate the player - he did.

So not nonsense then?, Flint's value has rocketed (which makes SOD's honesty wrong) and I think you will find if you search enough a similar SOD quote re Pack where he basically said we paid too much for him.