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The best ever ?


gow2gooseya

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Call me sycophantic (no, really, please do !), but I am struggling to recall a more powerful and effective back line than the one we have right now.

Hunter and Collier come to mind, but Flint, Baker and Wright have them beat. Add Bryan (arguably City's best ever left back or wing half) and consider Pisano and Maggs (a world cup defender), Kelly and Vyner waiting for a chance, plus with Smith and Pack sitting in front of them protecting the midfield, we have built our castle on granite gentlemen !

Would you say its the best defence in City's history ?

And if so, how did that happen ?

 

Maybe we could do with an extra bit of talent for centre midfield, what with O'Neil's absence. Something I can see being remedied in January

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17 minutes ago, EmersonsRed said:

We have the 9th best defence in the league currently. Not even close to best in this league, let alone our best ever

Our defence is relative to us, not Sheffield United etc., isn’t it?

But otherwise agreed. It’s the best in recent history definitely, but finishing mid-table in Division 1, even though many of us weren’t around to see it, must rank higher.

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Norman Hunter was a class to himself who represented England, a top British team regularly competing in European competition and was peerless at Ashton Gate.

Collier should have made a good deal more of his career but injury took over.

The current crop of defenders couldn't hold a candle to these two imo

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In the calendar years 1977 and 1978 we played the reigning European Champions 4 times, remaining undefeated with 2 wins and 2 draws. I can't see Wright, Flint, Baker and Bryan being quite so resilient should we play the current European Champions any time soon. 

In 1907 we finished 3 points shy of becoming the champion team of all England, so must have had a tidy defender or two there, starting with William Wedlock - the best player in his position in the country bar the trade union agitator Roberts from ManUre.

If you'd said the best defence since 1980 then I'd say yes, quite possibly but let's wait and see, eh?

Best ever? No sir. 

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My feeling is that only Joe could have challenged for a place when we had the likes of Gillies, Sweeney, Rodgers, Collier, Hunter, Merrick and Drysdale around.

At what is now Championship level the partnership of Collier and Merrick was the best we have ever had imo, bearing in mind that Arsenal tried to sign Merrick (and Ritchie) and Don Revie offered £100k for Collier when he was only 18 - big money in those days.

 

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10 minutes ago, Sweeneys Penalties said:

Norman Hunter was a class to himself who represented England, a top British team regularly competing in European competition and was peerless at Ashton Gate.

Collier should have made a good deal more of his career but injury took over.

The current crop of defenders couldn't hold a candle to these two imo

Collier should have been an England player. Positively Hansen-esque in style, he rarely had to make a tackle.

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In the play off final season our back four was;

Orr, Carey, McCombe and McAllister.

Highly as I rate Baker, Wright et al I'm not even sure that the current one is any better than them, but trying to seriously compare them to the best 2 centre backs (individually and collectively) that I've ever seen play for us, just no.

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In absolute terms, the modern day footballer in general is of a higher quality than previous generations. 

What I mean is the current premier league teams would wipe the floor with teams of old. Mainly because of considerable differences in athleticism, not necisssarily skill.

 The older supporter won't like this, but it's a fact based off science. The modern day footballer is aerobically more efficient, they're faster, they're stronger, they're more agile. It's just the way modern sport is, it's the same in other sports.

So in absolute terms, you may be right. 

But relatively, it's much harder to say. Relative to their era, Collier may have been better? But in absolute terms, the likes of Baker/ Flint/ Wright are probably better, because of their athleticism, not necessarily because of a raw skill difference. 

 

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46 minutes ago, Hellfire Corner said:

How about Sir Geoffrey Merrick?

Spot on, he was the business! I always thought it unfair when he was shifted to left back as, for a relatively small centre half, he really was good, extremely classy footballer.

Sweeney Collier  Hunter Merrick would be the best City defence I ever saw although Norm relaced Collier didn't he rather than play with him? Collier was a rolls royce of a defender, made everything look easy. The comparison with Hansen is a fair one IMHO.

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9 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Spot on, he was the business! I always thought it unfair when he was shifted to left back as, for a relatively small centre half, he really was good, extremely classy footballer.

Sweeney Collier  Hunter Merrick would be the best City defence I ever saw although Norm relaced Collier didn't he rather than play with him? Collier was a rolls royce of a defender, made everything look easy. The comparison with Hansen is a fair one IMHO.

David Rodgers, a more traditional centre half, though a fine one, took Collier's place alongside Hunter.

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I suppose it’s all a bit relative. 

I doubt the older generation players could have coped with the speed & fitness of even the most average modern day championship players, so arguably it’s harder now that it was then. 

I think the current crop need to achieve something tangible before they can lay claim to being our best ever. They are heading in the right direction though! 

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17 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

In absolute terms, the modern day footballer in general is of a higher quality than previous generations. 

What I mean is the current premier league teams would wipe the floor with teams of old. Mainly because of considerable differences in athleticism, not necisssarily skill.

 The older supporter won't like this, but it's a fact based off science. The modern day footballer is aerobically more efficient, they're faster, they're stronger, they're more agile. It's just the way modern sport is, it's the same in other sports.

So in absolute terms, you may be right. 

But relatively, it's much harder to say. Relative to their era, Collier may have been better? But in absolute terms, the likes of Baker/ Flint/ Wright are probably better, because of their athleticism, not necessarily because of a raw skill difference. 

 

I agree with what you say about modern players being fitter, faster perhaps even more skilful than their predecessors. That is probably true of all athletes in general.

The age old argument about "the best ever" is impossible to answer. The 1955 side had at least two in Jack White and Mike Thresher who are deserving of legend status. And through the 1960's Jack Connor, Alec Briggs, 1970's with Sweeney, Collier, Rodgers, Hunter and Merrick. Then came the Fourth division and the emergence of Rob Newman.

Most of you are well aware of those that followed. Shaun Taylor for a brief period. I'll leave you younger ones to argue about those since 2000.

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32 minutes ago, ForeverRes said:

In absolute terms, the modern day footballer in general is of a higher quality than previous generations. 

What I mean is the current premier league teams would wipe the floor with teams of old. Mainly because of considerable differences in athleticism, not necisssarily skill.

 The older supporter won't like this, but it's a fact based off science. The modern day footballer is aerobically more efficient, they're faster, they're stronger, they're more agile. It's just the way modern sport is, it's the same in other sports.

So in absolute terms, you may be right. 

But relatively, it's much harder to say. Relative to their era, Collier may have been better? But in absolute terms, the likes of Baker/ Flint/ Wright are probably better, because of their athleticism, not necessarily because of a raw skill difference. 

 

Fair comment FeR.

I put the late 70's defence because of the level they played at as well as their undoubted talent but I don't think I've seen a better unit since.

Hopefully, we will all get to see our team have another crack at that level one day. 

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3 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

I agree with what you say about modern players being fitter, faster perhaps even more skilful than their predecessors. That is probably true of all athletes in general.

The age old argument about "the best ever" is impossible to answer. The 1955 side had at least two in Jack White and Mike Thresher who are deserving of legend status. And through the 1960's Jack Connor, Alec Briggs, 1970's with Sweeney, Collier, Rodgers, Hunter and Merrick. Then came the Fourth division and the emergence of Rob Newman.

Most of you are well aware of those that followed. Shaun Taylor for a brief period. I'll leave you younger ones to argue about those since 2000.

Yeh exactly. It's impossible to compare. But I think modern football is far superior.

 For example, Bobby Charlton, one of the best players of his era, no question. However, would the 1966 Bobby Charlton really be able to live with the 2017 Premier League, I personally don't think so. 

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3 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

Fair comment FeR.

I put the late 70's defence because of the level they played at as well as their undoubted talent but I don't think I've seen a better unit since.

Hopefully, we will all get to see our team have another crack at that level one day. 

Yeh and you're right to do so. The late 70's defence that you referenced, may have been a better unit for their era, than what we have now. But compare the players directly, I think what we have now are probably better players, just because of how much the game has moved on.

Thats how I see it anyway. 

 

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Just now, ForeverRes said:

Yeh and you're right to do so. The late 70's defence that you referenced, may have been a better unit for their era, than what we have now. But compare the players directly, I think what we have now are probably better players, just because of how much the game has moved on.

Thats how I see it anyway. 

 

Indeed, it's an impossible comparison in all honesty. It's like asking would today's players have been as good as they are now in bygone days and vice versa?

Good discussion though. :thumbsup:

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1 hour ago, Robin1988 said:

Our defence is relative to us, not Sheffield United etc., isn’t it?

But otherwise agreed. It’s the best in recent history definitely, but finishing mid-table in Division 1, even though many of us weren’t around to see it, must rank higher.

Speak for yourself ? :P Personally I think a good side starts from defence. LJ is doing it the right way. Stop conceding goals and hopefully confidence spreads throughout the entire team. Getting Pisano back into the side is very important. I like that guy.

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Sweeney Collier Merrick Drysdale for me but it shows we're in a good place that so many are questioning whether our current defence is our best in history. Keith Curle was pretty good mind - went on to have a great career as a centre back and played for England at right back against Denmark in the Euros and lasted 62 mins (what was Graham Taylor thinking of ????)

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11 hours ago, ForeverRes said:

In absolute terms, the modern day footballer in general is of a higher quality than previous generations. 

What I mean is the current premier league teams would wipe the floor with teams of old. Mainly because of considerable differences in athleticism, not necisssarily skill.

 The older supporter won't like this, but it's a fact based off science. The modern day footballer is aerobically more efficient, they're faster, they're stronger, they're more agile. It's just the way modern sport is, it's the same in other sports.

So in absolute terms, you may be right. 

But relatively, it's much harder to say. Relative to their era, Collier may have been better? But in absolute terms, the likes of Baker/ Flint/ Wright are probably better, because of their athleticism, not necessarily because of a raw skill difference. 

 

Forget about athleticism, the comparison is based on ability.

Collier was more mobile and far better on the ball than the likes of Baker/ Flint/ Wright and at least as good defensively.

 

 

 

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