Robbored Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 40 minutes ago, Edge1981 said: Did Bell really score that many free kicks? I remember him scoring two against Plymouth on a night game but reckon he probably only hit 5 or 6 during his time with us. He took a great penalty though. Did he ever miss for us? I'm not sure he did. The two again Argyle I remember and he either scored a screamer or a free kick in the 4-4 draw at Meadow Lane. I was there and remember when Freezer made his debut from the bench but not whether Bells goal was a free kick......... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monkeh Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 57 minutes ago, Edge1981 said: Did Bell really score that many free kicks? I remember him scoring two against Plymouth on a night game but reckon he probably only hit 5 or 6 during his time with us. He took a great penalty though. Did he ever miss for us? he scored 34 league goals in his time with us, the vast majority of them were free kicks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobBobSuperBob Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Martin Scott the best of them. IMHO Nice lAd too Shame injury cut his career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robinreliant Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 hour ago, Edge1981 said: Did Bell really score that many free kicks? I remember him scoring two against Plymouth on a night game but reckon he probably only hit 5 or 6 during his time with us. He took a great penalty though. Did he ever miss for us? Were those two at the Atyeo end on left side looking from the stand just outside the box ? One to his top left the other to his top right ? I remember back in the days of Martin Scott Darren Barnard Jim Brennan Micky Bell that left backs were easy to get and replace or so it seemed. It doesn't seem that we have had a top quality left back since then (maybe Mcallister) Joe Bryan has brought much needed quality to that position. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge1981 Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 49 minutes ago, Monkeh said: he scored 34 league goals in his time with us, the vast majority of them were free kicks Vast majority? To be a vast majority (90%) by definition It would equate to around 30 free kicks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gert Mare Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 How many Tillsons are all these defenders worth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
42nite Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 51 minutes ago, Edge1981 said: Vast majority? To be a vast majority (90%) by definition It would equate to around 30 free kicks... Ok, how about gert loads? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edge1981 Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 5 minutes ago, 42nite said: Ok, how about gert loads? That’s more like it!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangkok Red Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 6 hours ago, ForeverRes said: Football has moved on so much in 20-30 years. I find it hard to believe players of an older generation would cope with today's game. No matter how good they were back in their era. A modern day collier, conditioned to cope with today's demands? Then yes. But the ~1980 Collier chucked into the 2017 championship? I doubt it? Once again, it's a daft comparison you are trying to make. Of course players are fitter now - but they damn well should be given the benefits of modern medicine and sports science etc. The players have to be judged in the context of the time. The comparison should be based on how the players compared against their peer group (of the day) and what was the individual ceiling they reached. Norman Hunter, for example, compared very favorably to his peers. During his time with City he was never out of the top ten star performing players in the top tier of English football (based on the Sunday Peoples ratings). His ceiling (even though it had dropped from his England days) was still far higher than any other City defender we have seen before or since. An outstanding player back then would be an outstanding player now. Period. The one exception where fitness doesn't come into play and a direct comparison could be made is goalkeepers. Jan Moller is the best goalkeeper I've seen playing for City and his ceiling was comfortably higher than Frank Fielding and co. ......and similarly, Shilton, Clemence and Seaman are way ahead of the likes of Hart, Butland and Forster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 1 hour ago, BobBobSuperBob said: Martin Scott the best of them. IMHO It's a tough call. I wouldn't like to form an opinion on which was the best of them. All were very excellent full backs as was Bailey although past his prime by the time he joined City We've had some very decent LBs over the years and to see Bryan being mentioned in the same company as Brennan, Bell and Scott is quite an accolade for Bryan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SStandUp Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 20 hours ago, ForeverRes said: In absolute terms, the modern day footballer in general is of a higher quality than previous generations. What I mean is the current premier league teams would wipe the floor with teams of old. Mainly because of considerable differences in athleticism, not necisssarily skill. The older supporter won't like this, but it's a fact based off science. The modern day footballer is aerobically more efficient, they're faster, they're stronger, they're more agile. It's just the way modern sport is, it's the same in other sports. So in absolute terms, you may be right. But relatively, it's much harder to say. Relative to their era, Collier may have been better? But in absolute terms, the likes of Baker/ Flint/ Wright are probably better, because of their athleticism, not necessarily because of a raw skill difference. @sarasin read above ^ .. In response to below. I agree that it's impossible to compare. But if you were to compare, older generations won't stands a chance 10 minutes ago, sarasin said: Once again, it's a daft comparison you are trying to make. Of course players are fitter now - but they damn well should be given the benefits of modern medicine and sports science etc. The players have to be judged in the context of the time. The comparison should be based on how the players compared against their peer group (of the day) and what was the individual ceiling they reached. Norman Hunter, for example, compared very favorably to his peers. During his time with City he was never out of the top ten star performing players in the top tier of English football (based on the Sunday Peoples ratings). His ceiling (even though it had dropped from his England days) was still far higher than any other City defender we have seen before or since. An outstanding player back then would be an outstanding player now. Period. The one exception where fitness doesn't come into play and a direct comparison could be made is goalkeepers. Jan Moller is the best goalkeeper I've seen playing for City and his ceiling was comfortably higher than Frank Fielding and co. ......and similarly, Shilton, Clemence and Seaman are way ahead of the likes of Hart, Butland and Forster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangkok Red Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 ^^ I didn't miss your earlier post and it's still a daft comparison you are trying to make Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangkok Red Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 6 hours ago, 42nite said: Ford Connor Parr Briggs Ouch! It's not the best back four but they would certainly set a record for the most own goals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Natchfever Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 9 minutes ago, sarasin said: ^^ I didn't miss your earlier post and it's still a daft comparison you are trying to make Agreed. so, George Best wouldn't have been any good in the Prem now ? Probably not if he was a pisshead but if he applied himself and enjoyed the benefits of modern sports science of course he would be off the scale in terms of value. Collier, Hunter and Merrick were high quality defenders who with the advantages of today would thrive at the top level in my opinion. I dont believe the same could be said for Flint Baker and Wright at present . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 8 hours ago, sarasin said: Disagree. There's far more giants in the game these days and far more emphasis and goals scored in dead ball situations. It's very difficult to defend a set piece with a short arse center back. There's very few (in any) teams operating these days with center backs as short as Geoff. I agree about his attributes and he also had a great leap (you didn't mention) which could compensate to some extent. He could operate as a left back in the modern era but was too one-footed to be a great left back. Geoff had to cope with playing against some pretty big and aggressive centre forward lumps back then - eg, Paul Mariner, John Toshack, Joe Jordan, Andy Gray, Malcolm McDonald, Bob Latchford...etc. There was far more emphasis back then on having a big man up front with a small quicker one next to him....that isn't the case now... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 58 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Geoff had to cope with playing against some pretty big and aggressive centre forward lumps back then - eg, Paul Mariner, John Toshack, Joe Jordan, Andy Gray, Malcolm McDonald, Bob Latchford...etc. There was far more emphasis back then on having a big man up front with a small quicker one next to him....that isn't the case now... Geoff wasn't tall but had a hell of a leap on him and often beat taller players in the air. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YCbrs Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 7 hours ago, Monkeh said: thats the point though, defense works as a unit, while we have better defenders today, they aren't as good a unit as the 07/08 unit, we had two good fall backs in Mcallister and Orr, who could both overlap, tackle, pass and cross, We had a big little combination in Carey and McCombe who complemented each other well and a decent enough if not eccentric keeper in basso, Put that defense with this seasons attacking unit and we'd be top of the league at the moment I cannot argue with that last sentence at all, hopefully over time some of the talented defenders we have can form a partnership somewhat like what we had back then! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gow2gooseya Posted October 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 On 10/30/2017 at 19:51, ForeverRes said: In absolute terms, the modern day footballer in general is of a higher quality than previous generations. What I mean is the current premier league teams would wipe the floor with teams of old. Mainly because of considerable differences in athleticism, not necisssarily skill. The older supporter won't like this, but it's a fact based off science. The modern day footballer is aerobically more efficient, they're faster, they're stronger, they're more agile. It's just the way modern sport is, it's the same in other sports. So in absolute terms, you may be right. But relatively, it's much harder to say. Relative to their era, Collier may have been better? But in absolute terms, the likes of Baker/ Flint/ Wright are probably better, because of their athleticism, not necessarily because of a raw skill difference. This is true, but I feel times maketh the man, and raw ability would have stood out on a level playing field. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gow2gooseya Posted October 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 11 hours ago, Robbored said: Bryan is the best City LB in quite some time. As good as Bell and Brennan I reckon and there's another left back roughly 20/25 years back signed from Sunderland I think whose name escapes me who was pretty useful as well. City will have difficulty next summer hanging on to him. He'll be in demand from PL clubs for sure. Lets hope we dont have to. Surest way of achieving that is to get promotion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gow2gooseya Posted October 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 Great answers guys I lived through the whole Alan Dicks adventure from Galley and Sharpe to catastrophe. Reading your replies brings it all back Of course Hunter was special. He was unfortunate that Bobby Moore was still in possession, or he would have become Mr England during his prime. Collier ? Well for me he only ever achieved potential status. He was very badly advised by someone Probably right to say compare this defence with the 2008 model. But if we go one step further and win promotion then Hunter & co are there to be shot at Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gow2gooseya Posted October 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 On 10/30/2017 at 20:27, ForeverRes said: Yeh exactly. It's impossible to compare. But I think modern football is far superior. For example, Bobby Charlton, one of the best players of his era, no question. However, would the 1966 Bobby Charlton really be able to live with the 2017 Premier League, I personally don't think so. of course he would. Charlton would have shone like a beacon in our premier league. His change of training and diet alone would enabled him to do that. I can envisage a similar impact to Zinedine Zidane. And Best, Cruft, Pele, Puskas, Di Steffano - all would have swept everything before them. Greatness, often in the mind as well as the physical, will always endure Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gow2gooseya Posted October 31, 2017 Author Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 7 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Geoff had to cope with playing against some pretty big and aggressive centre forward lumps back then - eg, Paul Mariner, John Toshack, Joe Jordan, Andy Gray, Malcolm McDonald, Bob Latchford...etc. There was far more emphasis back then on having a big man up front with a small quicker one next to him....that isn't the case now... Merrick was a fine defender at Championship level, but when we stepped up he had neither the physiology nor the experience to cope. He was too short, lacking balance and pace, and too one-footed to make the transition to First division. Then he had the wrong body shape to play as an authentic full back. It is unfortunate, but was glaringly obvious to everyone at the time. Hunter was indeed a revelation, and what a signing ! He even made David Rodgers look like a top centre half. Whitehead was much better than Geoff, but he was wasted as a left back. Geoff was a lovely guy, an inspiring captain who found his level at the top of the second tier. Thing is though, Hunter made his name in one of the best teams this country has ever produced. Thats why I didnt really include him in this comparison with Flint & co Because there isnt one, but also because we were Hunter's retirement project Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chairman Mao Posted October 31, 2017 Report Share Posted October 31, 2017 On 30/10/2017 at 19:27, ForeverRes said: Yeh exactly. It's impossible to compare. But I think modern football is far superior. For example, Bobby Charlton, one of the best players of his era, no question. However, would the 1966 Bobby Charlton really be able to live with the 2017 Premier League, I personally don't think so. Easily, two feet, lovely acceleration, brilliant control on awful pitches. Charlton would've coped with the current premier league with ease. Imagine the power of his strikes with the modern ball for a starter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BS4 on Tour... Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 27 minutes ago, gow2gooseya said: Merrick was a fine defender at Championship level, but when we stepped up he had neither the physiology nor the experience to cope. He was too short, lacking balance and pace, and too one-footed to make the transition to First division. Then he had the wrong body shape to play as an authentic full back. It is unfortunate, but was glaringly obvious to everyone at the time. Hunter was indeed a revelation, and what a signing ! He even made David Rodgers look like a top centre half. Whitehead was much better than Geoff, but he was wasted as a left back. Geoff was a lovely guy, an inspiring captain who found his level at the top of the second tier. Thing is though, Hunter made his name in one of the best teams this country has ever produced. Thats why I didnt really include him in this comparison with Flint & co Because there isnt one, but also because we were Hunter's retirement project Yet Arsenal tried to sign him twice....https://admin.bcfc.co.uk/teams/hall-of-fame/geoff-merrick/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gow2gooseya Posted November 1, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 11 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Yet Arsenal tried to sign him twice....https://admin.bcfc.co.uk/teams/hall-of-fame/geoff-merrick/ true Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangkok Red Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 15 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said: Geoff had to cope with playing against some pretty big and aggressive centre forward lumps back then - eg, Paul Mariner, John Toshack, Joe Jordan, Andy Gray, Malcolm McDonald, Bob Latchford...etc. There was far more emphasis back then on having a big man up front with a small quicker one next to him....that isn't the case now... :laugh:.......yes, the smaller quicker striker meant that you could get away with a short arse central defender back then, but that's certainly not the case today. It's also worth remembering that Geoff was a shadow of his former self when he returned to center back (after Hunter left). The sight of Sir Geoff being torn apart by Bobby Shinton of Wrexham is not one that I want to remember him by. I'm actually a Geoff Merrick fan and worshipped him as a kid, but (unlike most fans) I also remember his bad games and don't gloss over his weaknesses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ska Junkie Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 @Patrick Lamper, not causing an argument but you 'rubbished' my earlier comment that the late 70's defence was the best I have seen, would you like to expand on why fella? I'm genuinely intrigued. I appreciate it's all about opinions. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bites yer legs Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 On 30/10/2017 at 17:46, gow2gooseya said: Call me sycophantic (no, really, please do !), but I am struggling to recall a more powerful and effective back line than the one we have right now. Hunter and Collier come to mind, but Flint, Baker and Wright have them beat. Add Bryan (arguably City's best ever left back or wing half) and consider Pisano and Maggs (a world cup defender), Kelly and Vyner waiting for a chance, plus with Smith and Pack sitting in front of them protecting the midfield, we have built our castle on granite gentlemen ! Would you say its the best defence in City's history ? And if so, how did that happen ? Maybe we could do with an extra bit of talent for centre midfield, what with O'Neil's absence. Something I can see being remedied in January I could be wrong but I don’t think hunter ever played alongside Collier and if he did it would only of been a handful of games. Though I think he’d left for Coventry before we signed hunter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gow2gooseya Posted November 5, 2017 Author Report Share Posted November 5, 2017 15 hours ago, bites yer legs said: I could be wrong but I don’t think hunter ever played alongside Collier and if he did it would only of been a handful of games. Though I think he’d left for Coventry before we signed hunter. wrong ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ivorguy Posted May 7, 2018 Report Share Posted May 7, 2018 On 30/10/2017 at 19:33, Shtanley said: Bryan Baker Flint Pisano I think would be the best back 4 in the division. I wonder how many would agree with this now How are the mighty fallen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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