SStandUp Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 1 hour ago, havanatopia said: I don't go much for this consolidation lark especially when its 3 million in the Champs and 100 million in the Prem...plus parachutes... So there is zero reason to consolidate; its just a very poor business decision. But for the previous 2 years, we've avoided relegation by the skin of our teeth. And you expect us to go from that to premiership at a click of the fingers? That's crazy. Surely a good job by Johnson & players would be a solid 12th place? Shows progress and a platform to build off.. Something that we haven't had at all at this level. To say you're only gunna be happy or satisfied with Johnson until he takes us to the prem isn't fair. Especially considering our two last years, and the fact we haven't even proved ourselves as a cemented championship team Out of curiosity, if we finished 10th this year, would you be calling for Johnsons head? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spudski Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 4 hours ago, RedKatieScarlett said: From a management/ leadership it’s incredibly difficult to change a culture overnight and, it’s the culture of any organisation that needs to be right before anything can be built on it. SL, I feel, understood this and LJ was very clear about exactly what he wanted and how he planned to achieve it and they would both have known it would take time which was, against usual footballing norms given despite it looking hopeless. You have to engage the energy givers and diffuse the drainers whilst all the time staying positive yourself. I was once told ( in my leadership days) that draining the swamp was relatively easy it’s just fighting off the b***** crocodiles at the same time that makes it hard! Add someone lazy, not prepared to change and downright antagonistic into the mix and you get where we were last year when the dressing room was supposedly lost...I’m convinced LJ stood there tearing his hair along with the rest of us last season, thinking I’ve been really clear about what I want you to do but you’re just not doing it! I once had a run in with an employee who told me a system I’d introduced “ didn’t work”... my response was “How do you know? You never use it!”. How I empathised with LJ last season!!! So well done to everyone for persevering, onwards and upwards! Very wise words...and somewhat restrained I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elhombrecito Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 1 hour ago, cidered abroad said: So are we yet at that stage? If LJ and Ashton think we are, then we go for it. If not, another year building, it is. Intrigued as to how it's possible to not "go for it"? We're trying to win every game we play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
semblar Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 1 minute ago, El Hombrecito said: Intrigued as to how it's possible to not "go for it"? We're trying to win every game we play. Of course we are (to good effect so far ) I think "go for it" in the main refers to the January window.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hellfire Corner Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 11 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: I know a few who’s personal dislike of Lee Johnson supersedes their desire for the club to do well with him as manager. They always manage to squeeze in the fact that they didn’t like him as a player either. Who are they - let’s have names Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 9 minutes ago, Hellfire Corner said: Who are they - let’s have names People I know personally, despite disliking their view point - i'm not going to name them on a public forum. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Darkwood Red Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 I had lost patience last season but then I just a fan with no power. What I find interesting is what other effects sticking LJ has had. By not sacking LJ Lansdown has not only stamped his and the Boards authority but also LJ's on the club and players. They know the head coach has the full backing of the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Port Said Red Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 I don't really get the "I wanted him gone and I still think I was right at the time" argument. You were not right at all, you wanted to throw away the long term gain because of some short term pain. That's the kind of thinking that has had us yo-yoing as a club for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ska Junkie Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 5 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: I don't really get the "I wanted him gone and I still think I was right at the time" argument. You were not right at all, you wanted to throw away the long term gain because of some short term pain. That's the kind of thinking that has had us yo-yoing as a club for years. Each to their own PSR. Personally, I think getting shot in February would have been justified and not many would have been surprised if it had happened. Obviously (I can only talk for myself), I'm glad it's turned out as it has but wanted him removed in Feb and feel that was a fair request. Thankfully, I'm just a supporter and not Steve Lansdown although even his hand was getting twitchy by all accounts and the discussion was had even though he would have been aware of the strategic plan which is currently bearing fruit. I did not expect to survive during that pathetic run and felt change was necessary. Hindsight is a wonderful thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 9 hours ago, cidered abroad said: I don't feel the need to justify my feelings last season during our "winter of discontent". Neither will I apologise now. Having seen so many managers arrive and find it hard to break the mould of a club that has had too many wrong things going on in the background, I saw little difference last season. However, I could see that the behind the scenes was changing; better recruitment for the Academy, the stadium rebuild, and a change in the way we were recruiting first team players. One or two experienced heads but many more who had real potential to become better players and to take us places. Thus with a run like we had, I felt a very real sense of frustration, that all these other things were being negated by someone who, in my opinion, was not up to the task. If I had known then, more about the background of a couple or three who were still trying to pull the ship the opposite way to the captain, maybe I would have backed the pilot a bit more. I seemed to me that we needed a new manager, but I am pleased to admit that LJ has now got things under control. I have a sneaky feeling that Macca has made a big difference but it's LJ's responsibility and so far this season, we are steering a good course. Personally- I'd go for the apology: "This time it is totally different; we've spent £15 million on players, yes we recouped most of it with Kodjia, so to be relegated so ignominiously, pathetically as we are going to be, is an utter disgrace. And the blame lies not with the players, who must be just as pissed off as we are with the constant tinkering and formation changes, but with SL and LJ". "If I stood behind him, I know what I would like to do. Pull his head out of his rectum!" "But I've had enough of Johnson who is the worst manager in my lifetime.Totally inept." I might carry on using this forum, but I'm certainly not going anywhere near the Gate while LJ is employed by City" Welcome back Cidered abroad! . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SStandUp Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 39 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: I don't really get the "I wanted him gone and I still think I was right at the time" argument. You were not right at all, you wanted to throw away the long term gain because of some short term pain. That's the kind of thinking that has had us yo-yoing as a club for years. Hahaha bang on.. The "I was right at the time" is the most ridiculous thing I'm reading, and by so many. Surely that becomes void because of our current situation. In an extreme example, that's like Messi coach at 14 saying we should release him, he's not good enough. And now 15 years later, the same coach is going "I was right at the time and I stick by that" it's proper deluded Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marina's Rolls Royce Posted November 1, 2017 Report Share Posted November 1, 2017 56 minutes ago, Port Said Red said: I don't really get the "I wanted him gone and I still think I was right at the time" argument. You were not right at all, you wanted to throw away the long term gain because of some short term pain. That's the kind of thinking that has had us yo-yoing as a club for years. Your comment makes me think of Grayson's sacking which is a lot less justified than comparing to if Lee had been sacked. Grayson was a really solid experienced Manager having won promotion and done well at this level with Preston ( unlike Lee up until recently). The big problem with Sunderland does not lie with the Manager but with the club itself and the fans who just can't accept where they are now however short term it may be. IMO they should have given him time to turn it around- just as SL did particularly with them having 70% of the season left and 2 months before the window opens. Reminds me of the story of the two bulls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 18 hours ago, Jack Dawe said: If you find this "strange" or puzzling, you might be finding much of life - and other people in general - equally so. Social psychology explains why bad is stronger than good. "The psychological effects of bad things outweigh the psychological effects of good ones." There is loads of stuff on this, try Roy Baumeister for starters. Hard to know where to begin but simply, we all have a negativity bias, and there is an evolutionary reason for this. If your ancestors had not been more pre-occupied with threats and potentially negative events, than they were with the good stuff, then you wouldn't be here today, to be delighted with your football club, and perplexed by many of your fellow fans. Some other thoughts: - people complain and moan to vent, and to get things off their chest. To cope with feeling like sh1t. Some more than others, mind. - complaining/ moaning brings (some) people together - "a problem shared is a problem halved" and all that - and some people find solace that others also think "Johnson out!" Connections are made, and moaners do not feel quite so alone with their bereft feelings after the 5th, 6th, 7th, 8th defeat in a row. We are a social species. - in the language of emotions and emotion-related words, there is evidence to show that humans have many more words (about one and a half times more) for negative emotions than positive ones. - research on affective forecasting shows that people overestimate the enduring impact of negative events much more than they overestimate the effect of positive events. This might explain a lot on here.... I could go on. For example, the American psychologist John Gottman studied married couples and found that for every negative interaction during conflict, a stable and happy marriage has five, or more, positive interactions. If your ratio is 1 negative to 2 positive, look out! That's not enough because bad is stronger than good. Something for a few Otibers to ponder on, there. And the same applies to football: the bad is stronger than the good and LJ needs something good to counter any more bad, such as last winter's run. A league cup quarter final and 2 defeats in 15 (very good bad/good ratio!) is very good going and building up some faith amongst the "faithful," with all our individual negativity biases and individual responses to the "bad." Hope this helps? I believe there were once papers that said ice cream was responsible for polio and the mmr jab was responsible for autism (some are still convinced of this trash). Psychology papers are no different. They will be picked over, criticised, adjusted etc. until a point where they stand up to scrutiny and statistical evidence indicates a possibility that a psychology idea is correct (in my view, psychology doesn't have truths like physics and maths so it relies on statistical methods for evidence - empirical evidence tends not to stand up to scrutiny). I would suggest that Pavlov's Classical Conditioning (well established) ideas explain fan behaviour better than 'Bad is Stronger than Good' - have fans become conditioned into believing that sacking will resolve their teams woes. To counter such a view as 'bad is stronger than good', a simple story is sufficient - Aesop's fable 'The North Wind and the Sun' While it is not an academic paper, it makes as much sense as any academic paper - maybe this is evidence that simplicity is stronger than complexity? Maybe it's not so much that 'bad is stronger than good', more like 'bad is simpler to avoid than good is to achieve'? "Good' requires hard work, perseverance etc. and that some people, maybe, are just a little too lazy to put the work in - they take the simple route. But this is OTIB and these are the musings of one poster. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Leveller Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 13 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said: Your comment makes me think of Grayson's sacking which is a lot less justified than comparing to if Lee had been sacked. Grayson was a really solid experienced Manager having won promotion and done well at this level with Preston ( unlike Lee up until recently). The big problem with Sunderland does not lie with the Manager but with the club itself and the fans who just can't accept where they are now however short term it may be. IMO they should have given him time to turn it around- just as SL did particularly with them having 70% of the season left and 2 months before the window opens. Reminds me of the story of the two bulls. I'm not sure if Grayson's sacking is less justified - after all, LJ had saved us from relegation in season one and started season two really well before the bad run. Grayson has simply come in and failed to resurrect a club that had just been relegated. His track record AT SUNDERLAND does not compare with LJ's here twelve months ago. That said, I fully agree with your main point. Fans and clubs are now just far too impatient. Grayson looked a very solid choice, given his achievements at Preston. You won't find many Sunderland fans taking much notice of that at the moment though. I would have let Grayson stay on to try to find his feet. There's no saying that any replacement will do better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robbored Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 38 minutes ago, Leveller said: Fans and clubs are now just far too impatient. Grayson looked a very solid choice, given his achievements at Preston. You won't find many Sunderland fans taking much notice of that at the moment though. I would have let Grayson stay on to try to find his feet. There's no saying that any replacement will do better. Unfortunately impatience amongst fans and owners is an all too familiar mindset. The thinking of "change the manager and results will improve" doesn't always work. It makes me realise just how determined SL was last season in not sacking LJ when the media and fans were calling for a change. He refused to act and you have to admire him for standing by his faith in LJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Dawe Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 1 hour ago, bcfcfinker said: I believe there were once papers that said ice cream was responsible for polio and the mmr jab was responsible for autism (some are still convinced of this trash). Psychology papers are no different. They will be picked over, criticised, adjusted etc. until a point where they stand up to scrutiny and statistical evidence indicates a possibility that a psychology idea is correct (in my view, psychology doesn't have truths like physics and maths so it relies on statistical methods for evidence - empirical evidence tends not to stand up to scrutiny). I would suggest that Pavlov's Classical Conditioning (well established) ideas explain fan behaviour better than 'Bad is Stronger than Good' - have fans become conditioned into believing that sacking will resolve their teams woes. To counter such a view as 'bad is stronger than good', a simple story is sufficient - Aesop's fable 'The North Wind and the Sun' While it is not an academic paper, it makes as much sense as any academic paper - maybe this is evidence that simplicity is stronger than complexity? Maybe it's not so much that 'bad is stronger than good', more like 'bad is simpler to avoid than good is to achieve'? "Good' requires hard work, perseverance etc. and that some people, maybe, are just a little too lazy to put the work in - they take the simple route. But this is OTIB and these are the musings of one poster. I think you have illustrated beautifully that bad is stronger than good and lingers in the mind - well done! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 2 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said: I think you have illustrated beautifully that bad is stronger than good and lingers in the mind - well done! If you like to think so, so be it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jack Dawe Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 23 minutes ago, bcfcfinker said: If you like to think so, so be it What I posted originally was in response to @ForeverRes thinking it "strange" that the forum is quieter when we are doing well, than when we were doing badly last season. Why people feel the need to pour out their various thoughts - from the balanced and proportionate, to the idiotic and unhinged - much more in response to losing than to winning. Nothing to do with their enthusiasm or reluctance to sack football managers, or indeed, anything to do with mmr or polio (another field of science altogether, if I'm not mistaken )..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gow2gooseya Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 On 11/1/2017 at 10:52, Fordy62 said: I’m saying that his sacking would have been wholly justified. He didn’t really have a leg to stand on with regards to keeping his job. We were terrible. Nothing will ever change my mind that SL should have sacked him, but he didn’t. And in hindsight I’m glad I didn’t. But if I didn’t stand by my thoughts at the time, my opinions would be worth shit. I always said I wanted him to do well and hoped he would. But I also said I didn’t think he was the man to take us forwards. Seemingly the Tomlin effect was much greater than I could have imagined and getting rid of him seems to have been a catalyst in us becoming a much better team - something I would have never believed last year. The turn around has been remarkable. LJ has done brilliantly this season. I’m afraid to say I still struggle slightly to listen to his interviews - such are the scars from last season - a little bit like how it took me 2 years to eat Chilli con carne after it was my last meal before norovirus - but I accept that this isn’t particularly reasonable on my part! Good on LJ. I’m really pleased for him. He’s firmly into credit with me - somewhere I didn’t think he ever get near. And long may it continue. "Nothing will ever change my mind that SL should have sacked him, but he didn’t. And in hindsight I’m glad I didn’t. But if I didn’t stand by my thoughts at the time, my opinions would be worth shit. " Being able to admit you got something wrong is a strength. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
054123 Posted November 2, 2017 Report Share Posted November 2, 2017 16 hours ago, Marina's Rolls Royce said: Personally- I'd go for the apology: "This time it is totally different; we've spent £15 million on players, yes we recouped most of it with Kodjia, so to be relegated so ignominiously, pathetically as we are going to be, is an utter disgrace. And the blame lies not with the players, who must be just as pissed off as we are with the constant tinkering and formation changes, but with SL and LJ". "If I stood behind him, I know what I would like to do. Pull his head out of his rectum!" "But I've had enough of Johnson who is the worst manager in my lifetime.Totally inept." I might carry on using this forum, but I'm certainly not going anywhere near the Gate while LJ is employed by City" Welcome back Cidered abroad! . What a pathetic post. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pnefcok Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 On 01/11/2017 at 09:17, reddogkev said: I've said before I would've sacked him after Preston 5-0. But for me, this isn't about that, now he is on the up and the bad run and poor defeats of last season are firmly part of the past and represent a learning curve! After that 5-0, we didn't win for the rest of that season (6 games I think). Grayson was sacked at Sunderland after 1 win in 15 league games. So at this level he's won 1 in his last 21 league games since that 5-0 which is staggering really, especially for a solid, decent manager like him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bar BS3 Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 1 hour ago, pnefcok said: After that 5-0, we didn't win for the rest of that season (6 games I think). Grayson was sacked at Sunderland after 1 win in 15 league games. So at this level he's won 1 in his last 21 league games since that 5-0 which is staggering really, especially for a solid, decent manager like him. And a LJ has only lost 3 games, I believe, since that night. (2 vs Birmingham & 1 vs Leeds) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 11 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said: And a LJ has only lost 3 games, I believe, since that night. (2 vs Birmingham & 1 vs Leeds) In all competitions, including 3 games against higher division sides. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
downendcity Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 5 hours ago, Bar BS3 said: And a LJ has only lost 3 games, I believe, since that night. (2 vs Birmingham & 1 vs Leeds) Lost twice v Brum? Johnson out Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lanterne Rouge Posted November 4, 2017 Report Share Posted November 4, 2017 16 hours ago, JamesBCFC said: In all competitions, including 3 games against higher division sides. You could also add that we had two wins were against two sides who are now in a higher league, Huddersfield and Brighton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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