IMPORTANT - South Stand Display vs Cardiff

[Bristol Rob]

7 minutes ago, phantom said:

@Bristol Rob Yes it is

Good find! Never knew that.

[ExiledAjax]

18 minutes ago, phantom said:

Taken from UEFA guidelines

The full document is here https://www.uefa.com/MultimediaFiles/Download/Tech/uefaorg/General/01/84/35/28/1843528_DOWNLOAD.pdf

Of particular interest in these circumstances is page 15, emphasis added.

"Active fans (home and away)

By this we mean those supporters who generate the atmosphere in the stadium, visually and acoustically, e.g. ultras. Although there are various groups with different philosophies, they all have in common a hugely emotional relationship with the club. Their creativity and passion sometimes collide with safety and security requirements inside the stadium and can lead to misunderstandings with the police.

The SLO should strive to reduce the negative perceptions of each other held by the various parties by establishing dialogue between the active fans, safety and security officers, stewards and the police.

Supporters’ clubs

The SLO has to communicate with the organised fan groups (e.g. supporters’ clubs) to be able to represent supporters’ interests at the club. An established and respected dialogue is indispensible and can be developed with representatives or spokespersons of these groups, for example."

So...has there been engagement?

11 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Are those guidelines recommendations or obligations?

The handbook says that it is a set of recommendations designed to help clubs fulfil the obligation to actually have a SLO.

[Mr Popodopolous]

13 minutes ago, ExiledAjax said:

Of particular interest in these circumstances is page 15, emphasis added.

"Active fans (home and away)

By this we mean those supporters who generate the atmosphere in the stadium, visually and acoustically, e.g. ultras. Although there are various groups with different philosophies, they all have in common a hugely emotional relationship with the club. Their creativity and passion sometimes collide with safety and security requirements inside the stadium and can lead to misunderstandings with the police.

The SLO should strive to reduce the negative perceptions of each other held by the various parties by establishing dialogue between the active fans, safety and security officers, stewards and the police.

You see. An example like this, @JulieH is a good thing. Breaks down some barriers, clarifies some situations and hopefully should yield an even more positive relationship.

Stewards...like most people, like most departments are a mixed bag. With this in mind, a stewards liaison officer online on here could be an idea along the likes of the role fulfilled by Julie. Subject to the club's agreement of course and not leaking anything the club would prefer kept quiet for legitimate reasons.

[Blagdon red]

19 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Are those guidelines recommendations or obligations?

As  @ExiledAjax says, they are recommendations from UEFA. The only requirement is that the club appoints an SLO. The EFL regulation on this goes no further than that and specifically does not set out who the SLO should be or what duties they should perform.

One would hope, however, that a progressive business like Bristol Sport would aspire to best practice in all areas of its subsidiaries' operations. And in the case of the SLO role that best practice is set out in the UEFA handbook.

[Bristol Rob]

Hang on. That UEFA document uses the word 'Ultras'....

Didn't that word get banned down the Gate?

[Up The City!]

2 hours ago, Harry said:

The fact it was vs Cardiff is coincidental.

Ohh come on!! I fully support and embrace all that S82 do but please don't come on here pretending it was coincidental whilst at the same time berating Mark Kelly for his lack of honesty.

I fully appreciate that no one intended to cause offence or antagonise the Welsh but at least be honest that this was done to show that were proud to be English in in England V Wales game and to have some friendly banner. That's how I perceived this display. Imo the line wasn't even close to being crossed, it's the same as our fans singing the national anthem. 

Please don't come back at me with a rememberence day display either, if that was the case it would have been a poppy or a Union Jack to show solidarity with the Welsh to remember the fallen.

[Harry]

44 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

Ohh come on!! I fully support and embrace all that S82 do but please don't come on here pretending it was coincidental whilst at the same time berating Mark Kelly for his lack of honesty.

I fully appreciate that no one intended to cause offence or antagonise the Welsh but at least be honest that this was done to show that were proud to be English in in England V Wales game and to have some friendly banner. That's how I perceived this display. Imo the line wasn't even close to being crossed, it's the same as our fans singing the national anthem. 

Please don't come back at me with a rememberence day display either, if that was the case it would have been a poppy or a Union Jack to show solidarity with the Welsh to remember the fallen.

We've always wanted to do a St George display across the whole stand. Not being disingenuous at all when I say that the Cardiff game was our first opportunity to do it. Yes, of course we are not naive enough to understand that we were playing against a Welsh team, but the idea to create this was NOT because we were playing Cardiff - it's something we've planned on creating for a while and this was our first opportunity to do so. 

We have never tried anything like this so when we did so we always wanted it to be a simple design, so we figured a red/white cross to be as easy a design as there is. Once we get enough money and manpower we'd love to try to create a Union Jack or a Poppy but we are limited on money & resource. A St George cross was simply deemed by us to be very simple and do-able given our time, resource and funds. 

Considering it cost us a few hundred quid plus around 10 fans time of over 30 man hours, anything more complex was not really on our agenda. 

[marmite]

3 minutes ago, Harry said:

We've always wanted to do a St George display across the whole stand. Not being disingenuous at all when I say that the Cardiff game was our first opportunity to do it. Yes, of course we are not naive enough to understand that we were playing against a Welsh team, but the idea to create this was NOT because we were playing Cardiff - it's something we've planned on creating for a while and this was our first opportunity to do so. 

We have never tried anything like this so when we did so we always wanted it to be a simple design, so we figured a red/white cross to be as easy a design as there is. Once we get enough money and manpower we'd love to try to create a Union Jack or a Poppy but we are limited on money & resource. A St George cross was simply deemed by us to be very simple and do-able given our time, resource and funds. 

Considering it cost us a few hundred quid plus around 10 fans time of over 30 man hours, anything more complex was not really on our agenda. 

Any news on getting costs refunded Harry?

[Up The City!]

5 minutes ago, Harry said:

We've always wanted to do a St George display across the whole stand. Not being disingenuous at all when I say that the Cardiff game was our first opportunity to do it. Yes, of course we are not naive enough to understand that we were playing against a Welsh team, but the idea to create this was NOT because we were playing Cardiff - it's something we've planned on creating for a while and this was our first opportunity to do so. 

We have never tried anything like this so when we did so we always wanted it to be a simple design, so we figured a red/white cross to be as easy a design as there is. Once we get enough money and manpower we'd love to try to create a Union Jack or a Poppy but we are limited on money & resource. A St George cross was simply deemed by us to be very simple and do-able given our time, resource and funds. 

Considering it cost us a few hundred quid plus around 10 fans time of over 30 man hours, anything more complex was not really on our agenda. 

I appreciate what you are saying but I just can't accept that with all these home games we have had recently that the Cardiff game was the 1st opportunity. 

To make it clear I have zero issue with the display, just wish you could be honest that there was a motivation to have this display against Cardiff due to the significance of the game.

I can see by your responses on here why the club may have felt a little bit annoyed as honest communication doesn't appear to be happening.

 

[Harry]

7 minutes ago, Up The City! said:

I appreciate what you are saying but I just can't accept that with all these home games we have had recently that the Cardiff game was the 1st opportunity. 

To make it clear I have zero issue with the display, just wish you could be honest that there was a motivation to have this display against Cardiff due to the significance of the game.

I can see by your responses on here why the club may have felt a little bit annoyed as honest communication doesn't appear to be happening.

 

It's our first opportunity as I explained due to time, cost & resource. 

We've wanted to do something for a while but this was the first opportunity where everything we needed was available. 

We had to ask on here a few weeks ago for volunteers to help put the flags up because we were struggling. We've had a number of fans come forward and support this, meaning this was the first game we could put this together. Honestly. 

As acknowledged, the fact it was vs Cardiff is not lost on us, but it wasn't the reason for the idea/creation. 

[Kashmir]

I'm a 100% Welsh Bristol City fan and I can honestly say that I do not find the English flag flying in England to be in the slightest bit antagonising.

It's such a shame that politically correct do-gooders at the club can spoil this for everyone. 

I'm positive none of the Cardiff fans or any other Welsh person would find it antagonising either.

How depressing that this is even an issue to discuss!!

#freeStGeorge

[CotswoldRed]

3 hours ago, RedLionLad said:

There are a lot of youngsters coming to games these days with their parents, which all looks good in the eyes of the club.

The big test is getting these same youngsters through the turnstiles when they have to cough up £25-£35 of their own money in a few years time.

 

That's my point. Not nearly enough of them. The average age is creeping up and up. 

[CotswoldRed]

One can only imagine what the club might have said if the fixture was played on April 23rd.

 

[CotswoldRed]

49 minutes ago, Harry said:

It's our first opportunity as I explained due to time, cost & resource. 

We've wanted to do something for a while but this was the first opportunity where everything we needed was available. 

We had to ask on here a few weeks ago for volunteers to help put the flags up because we were struggling. We've had a number of fans come forward and support this, meaning this was the first game we could put this together. Honestly. 

As acknowledged, the fact it was vs Cardiff is not lost on us, but it wasn't the reason for the idea/creation. 

Harry, I salute you all. 

We are run by a bunch of people who wouldn't know fun if it hit them head on. 

I can get a pie and a pint where I live. I don't need to travel several hours for it. The club should remember why fans bother in the first place. It certainly isn't for the food. 

 

[CotswoldRed]

5 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Said it before and thinking it moreso now. 

Elements of the hierarchy at Bristol Sport, don't seem to 'get' football fans. Football culture.

Don't understand it, and possibly in some cases don't much like it. That's the impression I get anyway.

So get a ******* job at a hotel if you simply like food and hospitality. 

[CotswoldRed]

7 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Don’t expect any answers from him on here. Or from anyone else for that matter. 

Lack of comment from the club on this is shamefully poor and a complete insult to those who spent time and money sorting this out. 

Stick the question in a pie or on the end of a queue and he might. 

[Spoons]

30 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Stick the question in a pie or on the end of a queue and he might. 

You are so out of touch with everything mate. You need to get your head around the fact that your thinking is not main stream but in the minority !!

You talk about your club blah blah blah ... Pies and beers but you are clueless.

Bcfc cant run without the fans, the fans have no club without the board( many think otherwise but they've in dreamland). The club is made up of minority fan groups which all are as important as each other. 

The way you talk about other fans who want something different than you do out of your day at the footie is shortsighted. 

The more pies and beers that are sold the cheaper tickets are in the future for the games.

 

 

[Pezo]

I dont go in the EE or have any affiliation with S82 so I like to think im impartial in the debate. So from from my perspective as we have pictures on this thread of considerably more antagonistic displays by other clubs and also have pictures of stewards helping Cardiff fans put up Welsh flags the problem cant be national flags. As there have been so many people say they wouldn't have minded a st George's cross (on both sides), the increased policing in the EE and warning of confiscating st George's crosses I can only come to conclusion that the club is targeting S82 and the EE as something to be controlled rather than to be supported, it doesn't seem to be seen by the club as something that helps it achieve its goals of creating an atmosphere or certain people want to create a different kind of atmosphere.

From my perspective the type of atmosphere created by S82 is what got me hooked on football about 30 years ago and I have been a season ticket holder ever since, dont get me wrong it's good sport but the thing thats truely unique is the aggressive, energetic atmosphere. Im a bit past it now and have to expell far too much energy all week to do it at weekends but I would hate for kids today not to experiance that type of atmosphere and get hooked the same way I did due to the club wanting to sanitise and control everything.

[CotswoldRed]

5 minutes ago, Spoons said:

You are so out of touch with everything mate. You need to get your head around the fact that your thinking is not main stream but in the minority !!

You talk about your club blah blah blah ... Pies and beers but you are clueless.

Bcfc cant run without the fans, the fans have no club without the board( many think otherwise but they've in dreamland). The club is made up of minority fan groups which all are as important as each other. 

The way you talk about other fans who want something different than you do out of your day at the footie is shortsighted. 

The more pies and beers that are sold the cheaper tickets are in the future for the games.

 

 

You misunderstand me.  The club need to sell pies and beers by the boatload. Of course they do. 

That has nothing to do with contempt for fans views and opinions. They are entirely separate to each other. 

Just look at other clubs. 

If you think the actions of the club on this issue is acceptable then we're at either end of the scale. That's not a problem for me. You are free to complain about the things that matter to you. 

[Bris Red]

10 minutes ago, Pezo said:

I dont go in the EE or have any affiliation with S82 so I like to think im impartial in the debate. So from from my perspective as we have pictures on this thread of considerably more antagonistic displays by other clubs and also have pictures of stewards helping Cardiff fans put up Welsh flags the problem cant be national flags. As there have been so many people say they wouldn't have minded a st George's cross (on both sides), the increased policing in the EE and warning of confiscating st George's crosses I can only come to conclusion that the club is targeting S82 and the EE as something to be controlled rather than to be supported, it doesn't seem to be seen by the club as something that helps it achieve its goals of creating an atmosphere or certain people want to create a different kind of atmosphere.

From my perspective the type of atmosphere created by S82 is what got me hooked on football about 30 years ago and I have been a season ticket holder ever since, dont get me wrong it's good sport but the thing thats truely unique is the aggressive, energetic atmosphere. Im a bit past it now and have to expell far too much energy all week to do it at weekends but I would hate for kids today not to experiance that type of atmosphere and get hooked the same way I did due to the club wanting to sanitise and control everything.

Of course they just want to control that eliminate of our support..

I know it seems hard for and surprising for many fans to grasp but honestly we really really are just a number and a source of income for the club, thats how the vast majority of the board see us.. so in conclusion they just want nice people to turn up, preferably nice people who earn a nice salary. They dont want working class people who stand and sing and might swear or offend as ultimately that will deter the nice middle class people and there families away.. its a shame that a few ******* at the top of this club are marginalising the fanbase but its slowly happening and this incident just proves it. The start of Bristol sport as a whole for me is the day that BCFC sold itself to modern football.. its here to stay people and it is what it is.

[marmite]

We are arguing amongst ourselves on an issue that should unite us. How many think the club were right to ban this display?  I doubt even the board were united against it. Someone from the club needs to man up and accept responsibility and bring this to a close before it escalates. Good job there's a break before the next home game to let matters cool a bit.

[Phileas Fogg]

2 minutes ago, marmite said:

We are arguing amongst ourselves on an issue that should unite us. How many think the club were right to ban this display?  I doubt even the board were united against it. Someone from the club needs to man up and accept responsibility and bring this to a close before it escalates. Good job there's a break before the next home game to let matters cool a bit.

We’re not really, there’s been about 4 people out of over 500 posts who’ve taken an opposite view and some of them were just trying to be objective.

What is amazing is that 48 hours have now passed without any comment on here from club officials, including the SLO.

[Aaron-Bcfc]

8 hours ago, spudski said:

I think whoever is in charge of 'safety' issues at the Club, needs to rethink their ability to hold such a post.

They think creating a St Georges cross from bits of coloured cardboard is going to create hostility and antagonise.

Yet they don't think surrounding your own supporters with a myriad of stewards and Police actively looking for trouble, is going to do the same?

If you are surrounded by that scenario, straight away it's going to put you on edge and not relaxed, even angry.

I sit in the Dolman and looked across at this unnecessary provocation...which it is in my eyes...and it riled me. It made me feel angry that our club do this to our fans.

I really do think they need to sit down and study human behaviour, and what provokes anger and frustration in people.

Displaying a flag doesn't...surrounding people by stewards and police does. It doesn't make you feel safe...it in fact has the opposite effect.

 

Absolutely. There is no logical explanation for it whatsoever and Julie on here avoids the question when asked. I personally think they're absolutely desperate for something to kick off in S82 so that they have an excuse to bin off the whole "singing section". Then the entirety of Ashton Gate can become a family section. By absolutely loading the area with coppers and stewards this is undoubtedly their best chance of achieving that because as you say, it's intimidating and is bound to provoke something eventually. All it will take is for a fan celebrating a goal to accidentally nudge into a copper and the batons will be out.

 

edit: sp

[Phileas Fogg]

3 minutes ago, Aaron-Bcfc said:

Absolutely. There is no logical explanation for it whatsoever and Julie on here avoids the question when asked. I personally think they're absolutely desperate for something to kick off in S82 so that they have an excuse to bin off the whole "singing section". Then the entirety of Ashton Gate can become a family section. By absolutely loading the area with coppers and stewards this is undoubtedly their best chance of achieving that because as you say, it's intimidating and is bound to provoke something eventually. All it will take is for a fan celebrating a goal to accidentally nudge into a copper and the batons will be out.

 

edit: sp

Exactly. I’ve never seen so many police in a home section that’s literally on the opposite side of the ground to the away support. There’s no justification to it.

[Bris Red]

6 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

We’re not really, there’s been about 4 people out of over 500 posts who’ve taken an opposite view and some of them were just trying to be objective.

What is amazing is that 48 hours have now passed without any comment on here from club officials, including the SLO.

Agree. It seems a pretty unanimous view of opinions on here that the club once again have balls another PR situation up.

I would imagine the powers that be are really stewing over what to say in a statement tbh.. i mean what can you say? Its a pretty difficult one to worm out of and I imagine it will be swept under the carpet by the club. Spineless little**** who ever it was who made the decision.

[Mr Popodopolous]

 

Don't disagree @Phileas Fogg.

Would add to this, it shows just what an issue this is, what a hash of it the club have made that this thread still rolls on 2 days and more on and even with all that's going well on the pitch.

As an aside, I don't like to say it but my PR strategic silence strategy...I know there was a bit of a statement in local media but this still has the hallmarks of something along those lines to me.

Hope I'm wrong!

[marmite]

Perhaps the only way to get the club to react is to plan another St. George flag next game. At least we may get an answer to the question about it being  a Cardiff match that spooked them!

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, bris red said:

Agree. It seems a pretty unanimous view of opinions on here that the club once again have balls another PR situation up.

I would imagine the powers that be are really stewing over what to say in statement tbh.. i mean what can you say? Its a pretty difficult one to worm out of and I imagine it will be swept under the carpet by the club. Spineless little**** who ever it was who made the decision.

We can’t let it go and be swept under the carpet, the people who gave up their time and money deserve to have an adequate response.

The good news is that word is out. This thread has had over 22,000 views now and it’s being talked about on social media too. People have woken up to what the club are trying to do. It’s even more of a PR disaster if they say nothing.

[Spoons]

7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

We’re not really, there’s been about 4 people out of over 500 posts who’ve taken an opposite view and some of them were just trying to be objective.

What is amazing is that 48 hours have now passed without any comment on here from club officials, including the SLO.

Some of them trying to be objective?

Just because someone doesn't agree with you mrs fogg?

For the record I wouldn't have stopped the display , I just think that both S82 and the club could have been more open with each other about the display. 

[Bris Red]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

We can’t let it go and be swept under the carpet, the people who gave up their time and money deserve to have an adequate response.

The good news is that word is out. This thread has had over 22,000 views now and it’s being talked about on social media too. People have woken up to what the club are trying to do. It’s even more of a PR disaster if they say nothing.

True. We will see... we as fans deserve an answer especially everyone who contributed financially too it.

However i will say that if there ever was a time to worm out of a situation this probably is a great time for the club. 3rd in the league, man ure in the cup to look foward too etc etc.