IMPORTANT - South Stand Display vs Cardiff

[ZiderEyed]

2 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

So because things are going well on the pitch people should just pretend that everything else is wonderful and not ever question anything?

INGSOC invented the plane.

[RaspberryRed]

@AdamB @Mkelly 

You both no doubt know how much precious 'personal' time a certain number of people dedicated to this display

The club pulls the plug at the last minute and with every hour that passed with 'no comment' the more of a debacle you created

Also @AdamB just do the right thing by and resign as SLO as you clearly are not fit for the role or even want it

BEYOND Embarassing 

[ZiderEyed]

40 minutes ago, RaspberryRed said:

@AdamB @Mkelly 

You both no doubt know how much precious 'personal' time a certain number of people dedicated to this display

The club pulls the plug at the last minute and with every hour that passed with 'no comment' the more of a debacle you created

Also @AdamB just do the right thing by and resign as SLO as you clearly are not fit for the role or even want it

BEYOND Embarassing 

Degree of sympathy for Baker, he's in a very unenviable position. The club need a dedicated SLO. DaveL we miss you.

[The Constant Rabbit]

3 hours ago, Mkelly said:

Dear all

The statement in the Bristol Post was an official response to a question from the BP,  it does however, set the background to the events.    I will stress however, that the decision is not based on the flag but the context in what was presented at the time.   If as before, Ashton Gate were made aware of the theme of the display we would have had more time to consider, discuss and untimely make a decision with S82 and avoid any waste of time or money. 

If the decision was 'not based on the flag' why were the cards re-arranged into something else?  When you turn picture 'A' into picture 'B', it's usually because you don't like picture 'A'

3 hours ago, Mkelly said:

It is the duty of myself,  who is the main safety certificate holder to make a judgement based on advice on risk aversion.  We had 20k fans in the stadium on Saturday, the game was identified as a high risk game.  There are many decisions made on a game to game basis that totally go under the radar, this one clearly was not going to and the operations team and myself have to accept it.   The decision was also not made in isolation, the police, the EFL and the safety officer from Cardiff were all consulted on Friday evening and agreed it to be the right decision. 

We tried to get away with it on the quiet but someone leaked the picture of 50 stewards being paid by us to ruin the work of S-82. It took me 2 days to come up with something to cover my arse.

If I say that everyone else agreed with the decision, then I spread the blame, even though the Police have said they were fine with it, the EFL weren't even there, and the Cardiff safety officer was so angry he  let stewards help Cardiff fans put up Welsh Flags inside AG during the game

 

3 hours ago, Mkelly said:

The risk of me having further dialogue on this topic in this forum is that sentiment is high and clearly opinions are strong.    For this reason, I don't see any benefit in getting into further debate on this forum. 

I have been caught with my pants-down and really hate being thrown to the wolves by the club. So I'm not saying anything else. Let Rachael bloody Lemar take some shit for a change.

As for that tosser Dave Stoor ............

 

3 hours ago, Mkelly said:

 

 

 

I have read the comments.

Going forward,  I am and have been in contact with members of S82 and will be meeting soon to thrash out how both sides can move on from this.  To date, we have worked closely with S82 in enhancing this corner and the appetite remains to do this in a safe manner.   

I'm just going to have to remind them who is the boss around here.

It's Dave Stoor.

So behave or he will make me sanction more overtime and have 50 Coppers in there next time.

 

3 hours ago, Mkelly said:

I have no problem in organising a meeting through the Supporters Club and Trust @Blagdon red where myself and my team can explain the mitigation that stadiums have to plan risk aversion and at the same time, how stadiums can be accountable.   I also have no problem in illustrating how this particular decision came about.   I will ask the SC&T to arrange this if felt it would be helpful.

Mark  

 

 

I'll try to con the old codgers with some Bullcrap in private - that's the best plan.

Dave Stoor told me so.

God, I hate my fricken job. Thank god Rachaels here to help. Rachael?  RACHAEL??

If she's washing Dave and Jon L's cars again, I'm going to lose it.  Big Time.

Bloody Bristolian people wanting to display flags and sing and cheer and be noisy - why can't they just be like Chelsea and Fulham. Just be quiet and spend money.

God, they make a great prawn sandwich at Fulham.......

 

 

 

[RedLionLad]

6 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

That's my point. Not nearly enough of them. The average age is creeping up and up. 

......and will then drop back down again as we all go to meet our maker.

[KevP]

6 hours ago, SX227 said:

If the decision was 'not based on the flag' why were the cards re-arranged into something else?  When you turn picture 'A' into picture 'B', it's usually because you don't like picture 'A'

We tried to get away with it on the quiet but someone leaked the picture of 50 stewards being paid by us to ruin the work of S-82. It took me 2 days to come up with something to cover my arse.

If I say that everyone else agreed with the decision, then I spread the blame, even though the Police have said they were fine with it, the EFL weren't even there, and the Cardiff safety officer was so angry he  let stewards help Cardiff fans put up Welsh Flags inside AG during the game

 

I have been caught with my pants-down and really hate being thrown to the wolves by the club. So I'm not saying anything else. Let Rachael bloody Lemar take some shit for a change.

As for that tosser Dave Stoor ............

 

I'm just going to have to remind them who is the boss around here.

It's Dave Stoor.

So behave or he will make me sanction more overtime and have 50 Coppers in there next time.

 

I'll try to con the old codgers with some Bullcrap in private - that's the best plan.

Dave Stoor told me so.

God, I hate my fricken job. Thank god Rachaels here to help. Rachael?  RACHAEL??

If she's washing Dave and Jon L's cars again, I'm going to lose it.  Big Time.

Bloody Bristolian people wanting to display flags and sing and cheer and be noisy - why can't they just be like Chelsea and Fulham. Just be quiet and spend money.

God, they make a great prawn sandwich at Fulham.......

 

 

 

Brilliant !

[CyderInACan]

Have watched this story with interest since the debacle started unfolding on Friday night when I read on twitter there were issues. 

I guess BCFC/Mark Kelly erred heavily on the side of caution if they are to be believed. That the game itself passed with no issues (apart from the usual anti-football deployed by Warnock) maybe justifies that decision. BUT

* at the very least those ultimately responsible for the last minute change of heart should find some way to recompense those who clearly invested a not inconsiderable amount of time and money in arranging and executing the display

* if national flags are antagonistic then at least preach consistency. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, eh. 

If, as Mark has suggested, meaningful dialogue and an understanding going forward can be reached then all the better. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this episode though, a gesture from the club is the very least I'd expect. 

[RaspberryRed]

1 hour ago, CyderInACan said:

Have watched this story with interest since the debacle started unfolding on Friday night when I read on twitter there were issues. 

I guess BCFC/Mark Kelly erred heavily on the side of caution if they are to be believed. That the game itself passed with no issues (apart from the usual anti-football deployed by Warnock) maybe justifies that decision. BUT

* at the very least those ultimately responsible for the last minute change of heart should find some way to recompense those who clearly invested a not inconsiderable amount of time and money in arranging and executing the display

* if national flags are antagonistic then at least preach consistency. What's good for the goose is good for the gander, eh. 

If, as Mark has suggested, meaningful dialogue and an understanding going forward can be reached then all the better. Whatever the rights and wrongs of this episode though, a gesture from the club is the very least I'd expect. 

[Phileas Fogg]

25 minutes ago, Raging_Robin said:

I'm not saying that at all. Personally, I just think the whole thing is being blown up out of all proportion and I'm also trying to play devils advocate a bit. 

No Tim, what you did is boil it down to the most basic argument possible. "We all love a moan, this is a small thing, the team are good, let's stop talking about it" which completely misses the point that 12 pages of discussion have warranted.

Quote

@Mkelly has made a statement on the matter, which everyone wanted, so that's that.  I'm not saying I agree with it, far from it, but I don't see what this witch hunt is achieving apart from creating even more unnecessary tension between the club and S82.  That's exactly what you don't want if you support, like I do, what S82 is trying to achieve. 

Yes he did make a statement, but it took him well over 48 hours to do so. It's not a witch hunt, but when you leave a statement like he has done there are always going to be follow up questions.

Quote

The club was helping the group, they did let them in early and on Friday to set-up, but I think the decision to have a St Georges flag wasn't communicated enough maybe from the S82 side (from what Mr Kelly is saying).

Some members of staff are helping the group, others aren't. The communication point is really Mark's word against S82's. I know who I believe.

Quote

At the end of the day, if the use of the St Georges flag wasn't meant for the minute's silence, it was obviously an attempt to have a poke at the Welsh sat directly opposite.  We all know it was.  Do I think that the club is being soft about it? Yes. Do I disagree with it? Massively yes, but Its done though and I think lessons have been learn't but harping on about a card display like its the end of the world to me is a bit OTT. 

Again, you've missed the point. That isn't the only thing being discussed here.. it's a 12 page thread and lots of valid points and concerns have been raised.

In basic terms..

• People gave up time and money to help the display - fans from all around the ground funded it. What the club did isn't on.
• The St. George's cross and 'offence' standpoint from the club is rather pathetic which we agree on
• Is there an agenda from some at the club to purposely make life difficult for, and perhaps erode, S82 away?
• Why are there police stationed in S82 when away fans are on the opposite side of the ground? Why are staff members being secretive about the reasoning for this?
• The current way the SLO situation is organised clearly isn't right. This is a situation tailor made for a SLO and they haven't got involved.
• Why did it take the club over 24 hours to speak to the media about the issue, and why did it take Mark Kelly 48 hours to explain on here?
• There are inconsistencies in Mark's statement to both the post and on here - cross referenced with Julie's.

Quote

I do fully believe that the club should compensate the lads as a gesture of good will and maybe some better communication is needed moving forward.  They're doing a fantastic job,

Agree

Quote

but I'm not down on this constant blame culture. Take it on the chin, learn lessons and that should make for a better relationship moving forward. 

It's not a 'blame culture' Tim, it's a discussion on how and why the club made this decision, and an exploration into the lessons the club can learn. The almost unanimous agreement on this issue is very rare for OTIB, that should indicate to you in itself that the club got the situation badly wrong. 

[Lew-T]

[KevP]

7 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

No Tim, what you did is boil it down to the most basic argument possible. "We all love a moan, this is a small thing, the team are good, let's stop talking about it" which completely misses the point that 12 pages of discussion have warranted.

Yes he did make a statement, but it took him well over 48 hours to do so. It's not a witch hunt, but when you leave a statement like he has done there are always going to be follow up questions.

Some members of staff are helping the club, others aren't. The communication point is really Mark's word against S82's. I know who I believe.

Again, you've missed the point. That isn't the only thing being discussed here.. it's a 12 page thread and lots of valid points and concerns have been raised.

In basic terms..

• People gave up time and money to help the display - fans from all around the ground funded it. What the club did isn't on.
• The St. George's cross and 'offence' standpoint from the club is rather pathetic which we agree on
• Is there an agenda from some at the club to purposely make life difficult for, and perhaps erode, S82 away?
• Why are there police stationed in S82 when away fans are on the opposite side of the ground? Why are staff members being secretive about the reasoning for this?
• The current way the SLO situation is organised clearly isn't right. This is a situation tailor made for a SLO and they haven't got involved.
• Why did it take the club over 24 hours to speak to the media about the issue, and why did it take Mark Kelly 48 hours to explain on here?
• There are inconsistencies in Mark's statement to both the post and on here - cross referenced with Julie's.

Agree

It's not a 'blame culture' Tim, it's a discussion on how and why the club made this decision, and an exploration into the lessons the club can learn. The almost unanimous agreement on this issue is very rare for OTIB, that should indicate to you in itself that the club got the situation badly wrong. 

Spot on Mr Fogg. 

[Monkeh]

15 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

No Tim, what you did is boil it down to the most basic argument possible. "We all love a moan, this is a small thing, the team are good, let's stop talking about it" which completely misses the point that 12 pages of discussion have warranted.

Yes he did make a statement, but it took him well over 48 hours to do so. It's not a witch hunt, but when you leave a statement like he has done there are always going to be follow up questions.

Some members of staff are helping the group, others aren't. The communication point is really Mark's word against S82's. I know who I believe.

Again, you've missed the point. That isn't the only thing being discussed here.. it's a 12 page thread and lots of valid points and concerns have been raised.

In basic terms..

• People gave up time and money to help the display - fans from all around the ground funded it. What the club did isn't on.
• The St. George's cross and 'offence' standpoint from the club is rather pathetic which we agree on
• Is there an agenda from some at the club to purposely make life difficult for, and perhaps erode, S82 away?
• Why are there police stationed in S82 when away fans are on the opposite side of the ground? Why are staff members being secretive about the reasoning for this?
• The current way the SLO situation is organised clearly isn't right. This is a situation tailor made for a SLO and they haven't got involved.
• Why did it take the club over 24 hours to speak to the media about the issue, and why did it take Mark Kelly 48 hours to explain on here?
• There are inconsistencies in Mark's statement to both the post and on here - cross referenced with Julie's.

Agree

It's not a 'blame culture' Tim, it's a discussion on how and why the club made this decision, and an exploration into the lessons the club can learn. The almost unanimous agreement on this issue is very rare for OTIB, that should indicate to you in itself that the club got the situation badly wrong. 

Does @Mkelly work weekends? out of interest, which would explain lack of a response to a degree (should of posted first thing Monday)

But I know I don't deal with anything work related in my down time, 

[Red-Robbo]

I'm not one to knock the club's off-pitch management unnecessarily, but it seems to me that the statement Mark Kelly put on here - they aren't necessarily his words, more likely an agreed script - helps no one and resolves nothing.

If the decision was not based on the display being a flag if St George, why did the club take it? There's nothing inherently unsafe about a few thousand people holding up bits of cardboard. As S82 members had been in discussions with the club, officials knew the display was not  provocative - it was not going to be a huge sign saying **** Off Taffs or a picture of a sheep with a leek up its arse or something!  

I stand with those who say displaying an English flag - of whatever size - in an English football stadium is not a provocative act. Cardiff had more than one Welsh flag. Not something that incited any argy bargy at all. I'd expect nothing less.

I do think the club got it badly wrong here. It isn't the end of the universe, people make judgement calls and occasionally err on the side of caution. 

However it would have been more constructive if they'd apologised for the misjudgement and possibly set up some clear guidelines covering supporters' displays in future.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

Does @Mkelly work weekends? out of interest, which would explain lack of a response to a degree (should of posted first thing Monday)

But I know I don't deal with anything work related in my down time, 

No idea, he has responded over a weekend on here before and given his role as ‘Managing Director’ of Ashton Gate I don’t think typical work hours apply, especially when there’s an issue like this.

I think the truth is that the club wanted to get their story aligned before commenting as this came from high up. As it wasn’t Mark or Adam’s decision, neither of them wanted to come on here as they were in a no win situation by doing so.

I don’t think that’s the right approach at all, but I reckon that’s what happened.

[Bristol Rob]

3 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Does @Mkelly work weekends? out of interest, which would explain lack of a response to a degree (should of posted first thing Monday)

But I know I don't deal with anything work related in my down time, 

Fair to assume he works match days! And if football and rugby is on the same weekend I would imagine he is working on both days.

So his weekend (if he gets one) is likely to be very limited. 

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

No idea, he has responded over a weekend on here before and given his role as ‘Managing Director’ of Ashton Gate I don’t think typical work hours apply, especially when there’s an issue like this.

I think the truth is that the club wanted to get their story aligned before commenting as this came from high up. As it wasn’t Mark or Adam’s decision, neither of them wanted to come on here as they were in a no win situation by doing so.

I don’t think that’s the right approach at all, but I reckon that’s what happened.

from a fans point of view, no, from a business/corporate  point of view yes, and that's where his position has to come from,

it isn't right but i suspect that's the nutshell,

That and I didn't even know the fan anger until Monday myself, so it's easy to miss if you are unaware of it 

 

Classic case of lessons learnt here as we like to put in my line of work,

Lessons on both side but mainly from the club

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

from a fans point of view, no, from a business/corporate  point of view yes, and that's where his position has to come from,

A football club isn’t like any other business though so it’s not comparable to usual corporate practice. 

 

[Monkeh]

2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

A football club isn’t like any other business though so it’s not comparable to usual corporate practice. 

 

to fans its not, but to those at the corporate level it is, thats where you have to separate the two, and thats why people like your Mark Ashton's this head of secret police at ashton gate and M Kelly don't understand the anger and damage this sort of thing causes,

its why @AdamB (i feel for him) shouldn't be the SLO and should stick to the head of media, somthing he's very good at,

And something Bristol Sport need to learn, for all the good they have done recently, it only takes an incident like this to erode all the good will 

[Phileas Fogg]

9 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

to fans its not, but to those at the corporate level it is, thats where you have to separate the two, and thats why people like your Mark Ashton's this head of secret police at ashton gate and M Kelly don't understand the anger and damage this sort of thing causes,

its why @AdamB (i feel for him) shouldn't be the SLO and should stick to the head of media, somthing he's very good at,

And something Bristol Sport need to learn, for all the good they have done recently, it only takes an incident like this to erode all the good will 

Agree - I think that is the root cause of many of the fan vs club issues.

A football club should be run like a football club which means differently from a hotel or the theatre.

The club has bought in lots of people with different experiences who perhaps try and run it with the same principles you'd run a hotel or theatre. Some of them don't get issues like this because it's such a situation that simply doesn't arise in most businesses.

The club needs to work on that and improve basically. That's the bottom line in my opinion. A simple apology would go a long way - that obviously won't come.

I also feel for Adam, I doubt very much he volunteered to do the SLO role, however as SLO he should be involved in this situation. He isn't, and that's not really good enough either. 

The SLO situation needs to be sorted because right now it simply isn't right or fair on the fans or the members of staff involved.

[Three Lions]

37 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

k (it tooh over a yeaf and half!!!)I'm not one to knock the club's off-pitch management unnecessarily, but it seems to me that the statement Mark Kelly put on here - they aren't necessarily his words, more likely an agreed script - helps no one and resolves nothing.

If the decision was not based on the display being a flag if St George, why did the club take it? There's nothing inherently unsafe about a few thousand people holding up bits of cardboard. As S82 members had been in discussions with the club, officials knew the display was not  provocative - it was not going to be a huge sign saying **** Off Taffs or a picture of a sheep with a leek up its arse or something!  

I stand with those who say displaying an English flag - of whatever size - in an English football stadium is not a provocative act. Cardiff had more than one Welsh flag. Not something that incited any argy bargy at all. I'd expect nothing less.

I do think the club got it badly wrong here. It isn't the end of the universe, people make judgement calls and occasionally err on the side of caution. 

However it would have been more constructive if they'd apologised for the misjudgement and possibly set up some clear guidelines covering supporters' displays in future.

After  Bristol Sport did not allow fans to display flags with the words Ultra and Loyal on them for several not one match there was a meeting where fans asked the club to create guidelines for flags.  Those guidelines were started but never finished. fans in the Dolman sent e mails to Bristol Sport City asking for permission to display flags in the Dolman stand with the design of each flags to be checked for suitability. It ended (it too a year plus of emails and another meeting)  with the flag designs being ok but flags in the Dolman not being allowed. The Atyeo was pointed out then to be the flag displaying strand and fans should display flags only there. there is a element here of the South stand so called singing section being used to become the official flag and singing section and Bristol Sport allowing what they like and approve of to fit in with their idea of fan identity while preventing anything elsewhere  that is driven by fans.

The fifty foot St George was allowed to be surfed v anybody for years,. BCFC never had a problem with that.

[Red-Robbo]

3 minutes ago, Three Lions said:

After  Bristol Sport did not allow fans to display flags with the words Ultra and Loyal on them for several not one match there was a meeting where fans asked the club to create guidelines for flags.  Those guidelines were started but never finished. fans in the Dolman sent e mails to Bristol Sport City asking for permission to display flags in the Dolman stand with the design of each flags to be checked for suitability. It ended up with the flag designs being ok but flags in the Dolman not being allowed.the Atyeo was  pointed out then to be the flag displaying strand and fans should display flags only. theres. there is a element here of the South stand so called singing section being used to become the official flag and singing section and Bristol Sport allowing what they like while preventing anything elsewhere and that is anything.

The fifty foot  St George was allowed to be surfed v anybody for years,. BCFC never had a problem with that.

Thanks for the info. It adds weight to the evidence that this decision was made on-the-hoof without much thought going into it.  Easier to stop  something outright than give much thought to the implications of what you're doing.

BCFC/Bristol Sport/Ashton Gate Stadiums Ltd, you've dropped a clanger here.

[Monkeh]

24 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agree - I think that is the root cause of many of the fan vs club issues.

A football club should be run like a football club which means differently from a hotel or the theatre.

The club has bought in lots of people with different experiences who perhaps try and run it with the same principles you'd run a hotel or theatre. Some of them don't get issues like this because it's such a situation that simply doesn't arise in most businesses.

The club needs to work on that and improve basically. That's the bottom line in my opinion. A simple apology would go a long way - that obviously won't come.

I also feel for Adam, I doubt very much he volunteered to do the SLO role, however as SLO he should be involved in this situation. He isn't, and that's not really good enough either. 

The SLO situation needs to be sorted because right now it simply isn't right or fair on the fans or the members of staff involved.

It can be run like it is now as its working,

But when it comes to the fan base, thats when you need to lose the Corporate head, stop using bus words and stop treating fans like Customers and start treating them like fans,

Yes I know we are customers but treat us with respect sit down and talk to us like adults get us to understand why things like this change has happened and let us put our point of view across,

and the fall out like we've seen here won't happen or would be minimal. 

 

Thats what pisses me off, Fans being taken for granted 

[Phileas Fogg]

14 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

It can be run like it is now as its working,

Well it isn't, this issue shows it's not.

14 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

But when it comes to the fan base, thats when you need to lose the Corporate head, stop using bus words and stop treating fans like Customers and start treating them like fans,

Yes

14 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Yes I know we are customers but treat us with respect sit down and talk to us like adults get us to understand why things like this change has happened and let us put our point of view across,

and the fall out like we've seen here won't happen or would be minimal. 

Exactly

14 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

 

Thats what pisses me off, Fans being taken for granted 

Same

[Club and Country]

btw, i thought there was supposed to be a surfer flag aswell sat why didnt that happen??

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Well it isn't, this issue shows it's not.

Yes

Exactly

Same

for the fans it isn't for the club it is, we've got a new ground, great squad more flexibility in the transfer market, more investment, starting to look more sustainable, a real link between the youth teams and the first things,

All things we didn't have last time we were in this position in the league  (10 years ago)

[phantom]

6 minutes ago, Club and Country said:

btw, i thought there was supposed to be a surfer flag aswell sat why didnt that happen??

I never actually heard - was there ready and waiting, guess it was caught up in the same "discussions"

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, Monkeh said:

for the fans it isn't for the club it is, we've got a new ground, great squad more flexibility in the transfer market, more investment, starting to look more sustainable, a real link between the youth teams and the first things,

All things we didn't have last time we were in this position in the league  (10 years ago)

You're better than that Monkeh - wheeling out a straw man  

This issue, as you know, is nothing to do with the on the pitch stuff. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

In the context of this discussion, for the way the club is run and the relationship between supporters and club to be working - issues like this can't arise.

 

[Monkeh]

4 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

You're better than that Monkeh - wheeling out a straw man  

This issue, as you know, is nothing to do with the on the pitch stuff. It's irrelevant to the discussion.

In the context of this discussion, for the way the club is run and the relationship between supporters and club to be working - issues like this can't arise.

 

and there in lay the problem Fogg, and the point I'm trying to make,

For all the good thats been done, there is still more to do,

You need to separate things out, those at bristol sport seem unable to do that, as do fans when it comes to criticism, warranted or un-warranted both sides sees it as on size fits all and it isn't

The sooner both side do this the better it will get, but it won't happen without dialog and a proper SLO and no disrespect to Adam but he's not it due to reasons we all know,

For all the stick @Dave L got, he it least took our concerns on board and was always there to answer, we just don't have that now and thats what needs to change and thats what my gripe is and why issues like this arise

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

In the context of this discussion, for the way the club is run and the relationship between supporters and club to be working - issues like this can't arise.

 

I think it goes much more basic. On a day the club wanted to honour and remember those who have fallen protecting the sovereignty of borders and freedom, they take a crap all over that by preventing the English flag from flying. That the club doesn't acknowledge that mistake, that hypocrisy, that irony and apologise for it really disappoints me.

Putting aside the issue of s.82/atmosphere/fans v club, it was a very disrespectful action by them.

[Monkeh]

3 minutes ago, 29AR said:

I think it goes much more basic. On a day the club wanted to honour and remember those who have fallen protecting the sovereignty of borders and freedom, they take a crap all over that by preventing the English flag from flying. That the club doesn't acknowledge that mistake, that hypocrisy, that irony and apologise for it really disappoints me.

Putting aside the issue of s.82/atmosphere/fans v club, it was a very disrespectful action by them.

Playing devils advocate here 

isn't that what the minutes silence is for?, and wouldn't a better flag of been the union flag since there were both welsh and english in the stadiums and both countries lost people to the horrors of that war?,

(I agree with you by the way I'm just being objective)