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IMPORTANT - South Stand Display vs Cardiff


James

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18 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

Playing devils advocate here 

isn't that what the minutes silence is for?, and wouldn't a better flag of been the union flag since there were both welsh and english in the stadiums and both countries lost people to the horrors of that war?,

(I agree with you by the way I'm just being objective)

Devil's advocate is always good :)

That is what the minute's silence is for, but it's a bit like giving with the left hand and robbing with the right. The conduct throughout should reflect the respect for those fallen, not just for that 1 minute. It feels like lip service to limit respect just to that one minute.

I do get the issue about having a British flag but there is nothing really partizan about having just the English flag - no-one cared about the Welsh flag. @harrys explanation that it was simple to recreate is perfectly adequate imo. As for there were both Welsh and English in the stadium, I'm sure there were many others from other commonwealth countries too and the rememberance is for all fallen commonwealth soldiers: who knows if we had a St Lucian in attendance and should we have flown their flag too? [That's me playing devil's advocate haha]

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1 minute ago, 29AR said:

Devil's advocate is always good :)

That is what the minute's silence is for, but it's a bit like giving with the left hand and robbing with the right. The conduct throughout should reflect the respect for those fallen, not just for that 1 minute. It feels like lip service to limit respect just to that one minute.

I do get the issue about having a British flag but there is nothing really partizan about having just the English flag - no-one cared about the Welsh flag. @harrys explanation that it was simple to recreate is perfectly adequate imo. As for there were both Welsh and English in the stadium, I'm sure there were many others from other commonwealth countries too and the rememberance is for all fallen commonwealth soldiers: who knows if we had a St Lucian in attendance and should we have flown their flag too? [That's me playing devil's advocate haha]

good reply, thanks 

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10 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Out of interest @cider head, were the club prepared to allow the surfer flag?

Yes as long as we presented the fire certs for them which we have done and funny enough one is the Scott Murray surfer cupping his hand and the other is what we call big George, a st george flag with BCFC on it :facepalm::facepalm:

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Just now, cider head said:

Yes as long as we presented the fire certs for them which we have done and funny enough one is the Scott Murray surfer cupping his hand and the other is what we call big George, a st george flag with BCFC on it :facepalm::facepalm:

That's interesting - Scott Murray cupping his ear at Ninnian Park is surely far more provocative than a St. George Cross.

I'm surprised in hindsight that Cardiff let us fly the Murray surfer before at the Cardiff City Stadium.

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3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That's interesting - Scott Murray cupping his ear at Ninnian Park is surely far more provocative than a St. George Cross.

I'm surprised in hindsight that Cardiff let us fly the Murray surfer before at the Cardiff City Stadium.

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The approach of Cardiff City's stadium manager is a very enlightened one. Remember also that he has pioneered allowing an entire stand behind one goal to stand persistently throughout games ever since their new stadium was opened (all properly risk assessed, publicly documented and discussed with their SAG).

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1 hour ago, Red-Robbo said:

Thanks for the info. It adds weight to the evidence that this decision was made on-the-hoof without much thought going into it.  Easier to stop  something outright than give much thought to the implications of what you're doing.

BCFC/Bristol Sport/Ashton Gate Stadiums Ltd, you've dropped a clanger here.

The implications of what they do is that it can make fans decide they are not going to do something,. Lot of guff spoken about fan consultation and fan engagement. Fans are not involved in much really. the singing section has been used to shut down effort in other stands to the point where people decided enough was enough. the Dolman remains dull because that is the way BCFC/Bristol Sport/Ashton Gate Stadiums Ltd want it. the singing section has been used to shut down making all the ground or parts where fans wanted to do something to just we will allow it  in another little corner. that is a bit crap.  they can point at the little corner singing section and their art walls and their ideas done by themselves as example of how much they are doing with fans  when its very little at all to nil.  now the so called singing section sees  BCFC/Bristol Sport/Ashton Gate Stadiums Ltd rearranging a card display because they do not like it.

These people should consider themselves lucky they have fans willing off get off their arses and put the type of effort into making the ground more colourful when they would not unless its attached to a gert salary, instead of frequently wasting fans time.

This display is not the first time where BCFC/Bristol Sport/Ashton Gate Stadiums Ltd put  little thought into their actions or not cared. It is not even close to the first.

 

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8 minutes ago, cider head said:

Yes as long as we presented the fire certs for them which we have done and funny enough one is the Scott Murray surfer cupping his hand and the other is what we call big George, a st george flag with BCFC on it :facepalm::facepalm:

Speechless. That truly is bonkers. So if the fans were willing that could have been done on Saturday? I guess the goodwill was withdrawn after interference over the card display?

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This is definitely getting discussed on the next podcast. Annoyed I didn't notice all this before Sunday as would've had a few strong words to say for sure. What a embarrassing response to a pretty simple display. Great point from @Phileas Fogg about the "antagonisation" of the opposition fans trying to be avoided but then the club go and constantly show off the Murray/Flint celebration :dunno:

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5 minutes ago, Blagdon red said:

The approach of Cardiff City's stadium manager is a very enlightened one. Remember also that he has pioneered allowing an entire stand behind one goal to stand persistently throughout games ever since their new stadium was opened (all properly risk assessed, publicly documented and discussed with their SAG).

Who's the equivalent here? Mark Kelly? Or is the role a bit different and decision making also comes under Dave Storr and SAG's jurisdiction? 

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9 minutes ago, Shtanley said:

This is definitely getting discussed on the next podcast. Annoyed I didn't notice all this before Sunday as would've had a few strong words to say for sure. What a embarrassing response to a pretty simple display. Great point from @Phileas Fogg about the "antagonisation" of the opposition fans trying to be avoided but then the club go and constantly show off the Murray/Flint celebration :dunno:

It's just amazing hypocrisy - the Murray celebration is possible the most antagonistic gesture done by one of our players at Ninnian Park and the club absolutely plastered that image of Flint copying it on our social media channels.

That game in particular was well known in the recent modern era of this club for needle, coin throwing and general mayhem. 

Murray's gesture in that game is iconic and made him a legend - but there's no way that isn't antagonistic when a St. George's Cross display is seen as such.

1.25 in..

 

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5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Who's the equivalent here? Mark Kelly? Or is the role a bit different and decision making also comes under Dave Storr and SAG's jurisdiction? 

The structure's are a bit different. Their Head of Operations (aka stadium manager) would do some of what Mark does and a lot of what Dave Storr does, I believe.

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5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Who's the equivalent here? Mark Kelly? Or is the role a bit different and decision making also comes under Dave Storr and SAG's jurisdiction? 

I think it's storr, Kelly is MD, Storr is head of safety and security so would be his remit I would of thought

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Late to the debate here.

I think Section 82 are brilliant. Adds greatly to my enjoyment of the match 'event', even though I'm not part of it. While remaining a fans initiative, it is something the Club ought to support. I'm also proud of my Country and flag.

That all said, I can see why the Club made the call. However, the whole handling by the Club of the situation seems to have been abysmal. 

Just think any major display at/around the minutes silence should be something the whole ground should be able to unite around rather than just the home fans. Divisions between football clubs/ individual nations making up the UK are best set aside for that moment in time. 

What's done, can't now be re-done. Moving forwards, given the Club seems to have played an atrocious hand on this, I think the very least they should do is refund the costs plus give an extra amount and personally and unreservedly apologise to the organisers and helpers.

We also really do need a SLO who is independent of the Club but has some weight and influence. There seems to be a bit of a worrying and increasing trend that the Club don't listen and just do what they want trotting out untruths and half-truths to justify their actions. 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

that image of Flint copying it

Just a clarification @Phileas Fogg (and I fully support everything else you've been saying on this thread).

There was a key difference between Flint and Murray's celebrations - Flint cupped his ear to the home fans. He scored in front of the South Stand and ran towards the Dolman/SS corner. Nowhere near the Away fans, so not really provoking them, so I guess the club deem it ok to spread it.

Now. If he'd done an Adebayor (or G Neville) sprint the length of the pitch...well that would have been different.

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8 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

It's just amazing hypocrisy - the Murray celebration is possible the most antagonistic gesture done by one of our players at Ninnian Park and the club absolutely plastered that image of Flint copying it on our social media channels.

That game in particular was well known in the recent modern era of this club for needle, coin throwing and general mayhem. 

Murray's gesture in that game is iconic and made him a legend - but there's no way that isn't antagonistic when a St. George's Cross display is seen as such.

1.25 in..

 

add to the fact the club replayed this on the giant screens prior to kick off

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Many years ago I think OTIB was sponsored by our football club, this lead to instances where comments on this forum were printed with the addition “ as quoted on the Bristol City FC official forum” leaving it in readers mind that perhaps the club support this thought. Hence it became independent of the Club.

Now the back drop to Saturday was the Birmingham V Villa match where a great deal of criticism was given to Birmingham for issuing fans with a paper item, which for most of the game were used to try an make a collage on the pitch. So ovbiously the EFL were going to be very sensitive to any similar ideas.

Now suppose on Saturday it had all kicked off in the Stadium, the fact that a display of the St. George’s Flag had been displayed would have been an easy excuse to blame, and the fact that it was a display as opposed to a flag, could, probably would have been used as the Club had incited  Cardiff fans in the press. Thus the EFL, would have been on our case again.

Personally, I have no problem with the planned display, but I can see why our Club got a little twitchy, with this display, at this match and this time.

There are obviously lessons to be learnt on both sides. It is a shame that at such a positive time for our Club, such issues arise.

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1 minute ago, ExiledAjax said:

Just a clarification @Phileas Fogg (and I fully support everything else you've been saying on this thread).

There was a key difference between Flint and Murray's celebrations - Flint cupped his ear to the home fans. He scored in front of the South Stand and ran towards the Dolman/SS corner. Nowhere near the Away fans, so not really provoking them, so I guess the club deem it ok to spread it.

Now. If he'd done an Adebayor (or G Neville) sprint the length of the pitch...well that would have been different.

That is true of course, but what he did was a clear imitation of Murray's celebration. If the club were totally consistent in their message about antagonism, they would have even distanced themselves from the imagery of Flint's celebration given the inspiration behind it.

It was obviously pre-meditated - I wonder if Flint would've done it if he'd scored at the over end - I'd have loved it if he did :city:

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5 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

That is true of course, but what he did was a clear imitation of Murray's celebration. If the club were totally consistent in their message about antagonism, they would have even distanced themselves from the imagery of Flint's celebration given the inspiration behind it.

It was obviously pre-meditated - I wonder if Flint would've done it if he'd scored at the over end - I'd have loved it if he did :city:

I'm pretty sure he would have done. He's got that cheeky antagonistic streak that Murray has.

It's more pertinent that the club thought it was cool to replay that Murray celebration, and presumably the goals as well, on the big screen. I'm sure that wasn't deemed to be antagonistic at all.

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2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Agree - I think that is the root cause of many of the fan vs club issues.

A football club should be run like a football club which means differently from a hotel or the theatre.

The club has bought in lots of people with different experiences who perhaps try and run it with the same principles you'd run a hotel or theatre. Some of them don't get issues like this because it's such a situation that simply doesn't arise in most businesses.

The club needs to work on that and improve basically. That's the bottom line in my opinion. A simple apology would go a long way - that obviously won't come.

I also feel for Adam, I doubt very much he volunteered to do the SLO role, however as SLO he should be involved in this situation. He isn't, and that's not really good enough either. 

The SLO situation needs to be sorted because right now it simply isn't right or fair on the fans or the members of staff involved.

For me this is the crux of the whole sad affair. How can you have a SLO that for whatever reason doesn't liase with Fans? That's plain fricking crazy

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Flip side of SLO as a whole for all clubs and not a suggestion towards Dave in the past or Adam now as both had other busy Work roles within the football club, what I am saying that a SLO has to have full attention to that role and be trusted by ALL across the board fans to liaise or fans just will not open up and talk to them and more club bashing appears on social media and sometimes you have to go to places around the Bristol city fan base you may not like to go to, I remember Andrew Billingham going to the three lions for a Q&A with David Lloyd and it was not a pleasant experience (nothing hostile) but smooth corporate spin talk was not working and Dave L had to step in a few times to explain.

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10 minutes ago, RaspberryRed said:

For me this is the crux of the whole sad affair. How can you have a SLO that for whatever reason doesn't liase with Fans? That's plain fricking crazy

Did a bit of digging on how other similar clubs do it. Hard to say how active the other club's SLO's are without speaking to their fans but interestingly Barnsley have an arrangement that looks good.

https://www.barnsleyfc.co.uk/news/2015/february/barnsley-football-club-appoints-new-supporter-liaison-officers/

Quote
Barnsley Football Club is proud to support the Football League’s Supporter Liaison Officer (SLO) initiative, and four new SLO’s have now been appointed to represent the Club and our supporters. We are delighted to announce that lifelong Reds supporters Carlo Van De Watering, Alan Bloore, Sarah Chadwick and Ray Brammer have been appointed to work jointly in the role of SLO, being the official channel of communication between the fans and the club management team. Carlo and Alan will work as the Home SLO’s, with Sarah and Ray taking care of away match duties.
 
The role which is backed by UEFA is designed to ensure that fans have a dedicated point of contact and someone who will best represent the needs of fans within the Club, ensuring that the most common issues are raised at the highest level within Oakwell.
 
UEFA first adopted the principle of the Supporter Liaison Officer (SLO) as part of their football club licensing platform, and it is centered on improving communication and providing a focal point for supporters to make their voice heard. The SLO is an independent position which reports directly to the Chief Executive, meaning that fans have an independent representative putting their views forward.
 
Barnsley Football Club has given great consideration to the process of appointing these positions, and is now pleased to announce that Carlo, Alan, Sarah and Ray will shortly take up their roles as SLOs at Barnsley FC. The Supporter Liaison Officers will be on hand to meet and interact with supporters at every game both home and away, and will subsequently meet with the Club management team in the days following each game to discuss feedback raised by supporters.  A dedicated e-mail address (slo@barnsleyfc.co.uk) has been set up for use by the SLOs, which supporters can now use to make contact and raise any points. The club is delighted to welcome the SLOs on board and will assist them in all their work on behalf of the supporters and the club. 
 
Barnsley FC Chief Executive Ben Mansford commented Barnsley FC welcomes the SLO initiative and we are delighted to have Carlo, Alan, Sarah and Ray on board. Fan engagement is vital in moving the Club forwards and over recent years we have made positive steps with the introduction of monthly fan forums and various other community activities alongside the BFC Community Sports & Education Trust, the Football Club’s charity organisation. The appointment of our four new SLOs here at Barnsley will be another significant step forward in this area and we are looking forward to working together. Feedback from our loyal supporters is incredibly valuable, so we are confident that the appointment of the SLOs will give our supporters a unique platform to communicate with management at the club and ensure that their voice is heard. We are very thankful to the SLOs for giving up their time to stand in this important role at the Club, and would encourage supporters to give feedback and engage with us as much as possible.”
 
Over the coming weeks, we will be working with the SLOs to develop a new section on the Club website which will house relevant information to enhance the visitor experience for both home and away supporters coming to Oakwell Stadium.

Looks a great way of doing it. Sharing of the work load but in theory looks the right way to organise it.

Would be interesting to hear from a Barnsley fan about that arrangement and how well they feel it works because it's been in place for almost 2 years now - I know there's a few on this forum but can't remember their names..

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7 minutes ago, cider head said:

Flip side of SLO as a whole for all clubs and not a suggestion towards Dave in the past or Adam now as both had other busy Work roles within the football club, what I am saying that a SLO has to have full attention to that role and be trusted by ALL across the board fans to liaise or fans just will not open up and talk to them and more club bashing appears on social media and sometimes you have to go to places around the Bristol city fan base you may not like to go to, I remember Andrew Billingham going to the three lions for a Q&A with David Lloyd and it was not a pleasant experience (nothing hostile) but smooth corporate spin talk was not working and Dave L had to step in a few times to explain.

I remember it well!!

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6 minutes ago, phantom said:

From a fans point of view both people gained a lot of respect from that meeting that day, and it was very useful to have an open meeting

Agreed partly for a CEO to show up but that’s about it, but it did show one was well out of touch with sections of the fan base at that time and it’s not Dave L I am talking about

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15 hours ago, Mkelly said:

Dear all

The statement in the Bristol Post was an official response to a question from the BP,  it does however, set the background to the events.    I will stress however, that the decision is not based on the flag but the context in what was presented at the time.   If as before, Ashton Gate were made aware of the theme of the display we would have had more time to consider, discuss and untimely make a decision with S82 and avoid any waste of time or money. 

It is the duty of myself,  who is the main safety certificate holder to make a judgement based on advice on risk aversion.  We had 20k fans in the stadium on Saturday, the game was identified as a high risk game.  There are many decisions made on a game to game basis that totally go under the radar, this one clearly was not going to and the operations team and myself have to accept it.   The decision was also not made in isolation, the police, the EFL and the safety officer from Cardiff were all consulted on Friday evening and agreed it to be the right decision. 

The risk of me having further dialogue on this topic in this forum is that sentiment is high and clearly opinions are strong.    For this reason, I don't see any benefit in getting into further debate on this forum.  I have read the comments.

Going forward,  I am and have been in contact with members of S82 and will be meeting soon to thrash out how both sides can move on from this.  To date, we have worked closely with S82 in enhancing this corner and the appetite remains to do this in a safe manner.   

I have no problem in organising a meeting through the Supporters Club and Trust @Blagdon red where myself and my team can explain the mitigation that stadiums have to plan risk aversion and at the same time, how stadiums can be accountable.   I also have no problem in illustrating how this particular decision came about.   I will ask the SC&T to arrange this if felt it would be helpful.

Mark  

 

 

This is frankly bollocks.

To me it shows the contempt that Bristol Sport has towards Bristol City and the loyal fans who have supported their club through thick and thin, and at times when the concept of #makingbristolproud hadn’t entered anyone’s mind.

Bristol City, Bristol Rugby and any other sport that falls within the auspices of Bristol Sport is simply a means to an end.

If it wasn’t sport then it could have been any other commodity or means of entertainment that encourages people to spend money to participate or spectate something, and whilst doing so spend more money.

Bristol Sport, the Lansdowns or any other immediate members of its Senior Management Team don’t give two shits about the sport or it’s supporters. As long as we attend and spend money they’ll be there.

When there are tough choices to be made they’ll be gone. Or taking ages to explain their actions.

Funny that MA can release a press release within minutes about Bailey Wright but it takes days to respond to a heated debate about pieces of cardboard.

Much talk of “making AG a fortress” and thanking or doing it for the fans. Everyman and his dog - or grandson in his ear defenders will be humble and walk around the pitch when we do well. 

Need to take the rough with the smooth gentlemen. 

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