Poppies on shirts, guess which Club

[Red Skin]

40 minutes ago, Loco Rojo said:

I'm not sure Moina Michael or Anna Guerin would agree with your comments that the Poppy was intended for the Old Empire or what the intention of the Poppy was ment to achieve other than to help those effected by war - whether military (or civilians effected by war who also needed help)

In fact I'm pretty sure that as Moina supported those veterans in Georgia USA effected by war it was not at the front of her mind to create a political symbol against the English....but who knows....maybe Celtic football club know the real intention of the Poppy.

Look, my original point was that the Poppy was originally intended as a symbol of rememberence but more importantly intended to raise funds to help people who needed it.

Fair enough.  Let agree on the victors rather than the enemy or civilians.   

http://www.ppu.org.uk/whitepoppy/index.html

My main points would be

- its the individual's right to choose

- red poppies are the fallen from all Bristish conflict

- not every irish or that consider themselves to be irish descendent see British involvement in Ireland as benevolent

- Celtic have an Irish heritage and many supporters identify with Ireland.

- They have every right to choose not to have the poopy of their shirt if the want

- Celtic players and supporters can still choose to wear the poppy if they want in their own way.

- Im suspicious of anyone telling people what they must do or believe.  All sounds a bit fascist.

This thread is really a political one not a football one.

 

 

[54-46]

5 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

And the Irish couldn't be arsed to fight in the war. 

When it comes to Nazis we all respect neutrality. Not. 

Irish Guards?

Lost over 3k troops in WW1/2 and were awarded 6 VCs

[CotswoldRed]

18 minutes ago, 54-46 said:

Irish Guards?

Lost over 3k troops in WW1/2 and were awarded 6 VCs

As a nation. Ambivalence to fascism isn't really a great on a nation's CV. 

And no, neither are many of the things on ours either. 

[Red-Robbo]

You'd think a club with such Irish connections (although only one Irishman in their 44-man squad) might want to honour the 49,000 Irish men who died in World War One.

[Roger Red Hat]

https://weegingerdug.wordpress.com/2017/11/01/the-annual-rant-about-poppies-2/

[kevster3]

7 hours ago, hoxton casual said:

Kevster may I point out a couple of things to educate you.

First Glasgow Celtic are a Scottish and British club, and many Scottish and British people have lost their lives in the wars principally commemorated by The Poppy.

Secondly, many Irish people fought and died in these wars as well.

I hope you will be picking up some history books today, to deepen your knowledge and not be duped by nasty sectarian reworkings of history.

My ancestors fought the tyranny of the British,so you can do one *****

[Vincent Vega]

1 minute ago, kevster3 said:

My ancestors fought the tyranny of the British,so you can do one *****

You William Wallace..?.

 

[barno73]

Does anyone know if our poppy shirts are being auctioned this year? Can see Flint’s making a tidy sum.

[ballwinningcentrehalf]

Ah, this thread, again. Same OTIB users as usual pretending to be offended.

Ultimately, the incredible sacrifice these men and woman made in the wars was for the right of everyone to have the freedom to make these decisions, whether you agree with them or not.

7 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

For me the key point is that people want to continue and perpetuate difference for its own sake. 

My family were Scottish and Welsh but there's no need for me to cling to this. It serves no purpose. 

If Bristol City was set up by a bunch of Welsh blokes would there be a need to fly the Welsh flag? No - it would simply remain an interesting fact in our history, nothing more. 

When you boil it down that's all it is. "My family/history was from Ireland".... big deal - it's very brave of you to create a 'pretend army' with some vague cause while living in a western economy supported by free health care, education and welfare. Your misplaced - frankly laughable - sense of difference from your neighbours must really be a beacon to peoples all over the world suffering at the hands of dictatorships and failed states. 

Too many people act as apologists for people like this. As it's "their history" etc. Well, the same people would think I was a racist if I was to cling to history by hating the French for what Napoleon did. 

This is what we are dealing with. The acceptance of small minded people like Celtic fans and their hate-filled communities while castigating ourselves if we (the English)  don't accept everyone as equal.

The issue I have with this post is that in many cases it isn't because Celtic happened to be formed by Irish immigrants over a 100 years ago, it's because they witnessed and suffered real pain much more recently than that. 

This is a massively emotive subject, one I can barely articulate in a post on a forum, but I've sat in the homes of my own extended family who went through seeing friends and family beaten and killed during the troubles and would never, ever want to wear a poppy. On the other hand I know those who either lost friends/family at the hands of the IRA or went through the paralysing fear of bombings or bomb threats in the UK. Hating Celtic due to it's republican ties is a fairly common symptom. Is it still hate filled now? In many cases you are damn right it is. Is it small-minded? The pain still runs deep on both sides and will take generations and many, many years to heal. Whilst the above are extreme examples, there are the many, many others that don't know or understand the deeper history and merely want to feel part of a 'cause', be it standing at a football match and singing in support of the IRA or deciding Celtic and it's supporters must be inherently evil for not wearing a poppy.

Celtic are caught in a weird place. They could, and should, do more. But it's too easy to simply say 'politics don't belong at football'. The club has been political since it's inception and something so ingrained takes time and education to change.

The thing I always find interesting about these threads is that it shows up pretty obviously those that fall into the far-ends of both sides. Those that jump in to bemoan everything relating to Celtic as 'vile/scum' show their ignorance as much as the Celtic fans that they proclaim to hate.

[Grey Fox]

10 hours ago, 22A said:

In WW1 the Irish Republic did not exist and may Irishmen died. There was even a recruiting poster issued "Irishmen, avenge the Lusitania; join an Irish regiment today".

My father was on North Atlantic convoy protection with the Royal Navy during WW2, he always said if you came across an Irish ship , you would meet a U boat soon after. For years after the war, those Irish men who did volunteer for the British Army to help in the fight against Hitler were persecuted by the Irish authorities. 

I have every sympathy with the Irish people over their treatment by the British before independence, but their conduct during WW2 was unforgivable.

[E.J.Thribb]

8 hours ago, RalphMilnesLeftFoot said:

Ah the resident ' they arent wearing a poppy , how dare they thread..'

Why people contort and go literally insane to get or force people to do something to the point that it loses all meaning is utterly beyond me. 

A football team didnt have a flower on their kit. Apparently the war dead are going to start kicking off about it any time soon. Except they arent, beause they are dead, they did what they did because politics and those civilians prisoners etc died because also politics. They are remembered so why do people get so bent out of shape over it?

The collective hive mind of humanity isnt suddenly going to forget millions of people dying needlessly and you don't actually need a single day to remind us of this fact and bring out the worst in humanity with people dictating how and why things should and have to be remembered or else.

The whole poppy facade is now a ghastly freakshow of oneupmanship and the worst points that humanity has to offer. Let people remember in their own way rather than smashing all meaning Remembrance Day had to bits in the name of showing who can remember the best.

 

 

Precisely this. It’s become a case of ‘I’m remembering more than you’ when it was always a period of solemnity and decorum. 

 

[hoxton casual]

2 hours ago, kevster3 said:

My ancestors fought the tyranny of the British,so you can do one *****

I hope your ancestors were not as ignorant and rude as you. As to British tyranny, that is an interesting debate but you rather call me a **** and hold onto your ignorance. 

[hoxton casual]

Very interesting debate and some thoroughly stimulating contributions. I have learned someting reading this thread - most importantly that may be a ****

[bs3]

13 hours ago, kevster3 said:

Should check history before making such a comment, the Irish have no need to respect the horrors that British bestowed on them. 

Check you recent history pal to see the horrors of what the IRA bestowed on this country, bunch of baby killings thugs,

[bs3]

3 hours ago, kevster3 said:

My ancestors fought the tyranny of the British,so you can do one *****

My Grandparents were from Ireland , Country Cork , my grandad told me about what the Black and Tans did in Ireland , but he also fought for this country during the Second World War, mistakes were made by the British in Ireland but when we wear the poppy we are remembering all soldiers from these isles  who fought and died fighting Nazism a far great evil than than the “British”.

Also thousands of Irish men died fighting Germany in the 1st World war when Ireland was part of the United Kingdom.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

21 minutes ago, bs3 said:

Check you recent history pal to see the horrors of what the IRA bestowed on this country, bunch of baby killings thugs,

There are two separate sides to Irish politics.  The IRA were by no means the only side responsible for killing.

As to the wearing of poppies, I’m afraid I think it has debased the whole meaning of remembrance which should be something personal, not something for public display.  My son’s under 9s team  had a minute’s silence before their game today, I’m afraid for the life of me I couldn’t see why.  

 

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

5 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

There are two separate sides to Irish politics.  The IRA were by no means the only side responsible for killing.

As to the wearing of poppies, I’m afraid I think it has debased the whole meaning of remembrance which should be something personal, not something for public display.  My son’s under 9s team  had a minute’s silence before their game today, I’m afraid for the life of me I couldn’t see why.  

 

Stop press:  they’ve just announced that next week’s Strictly will feature a special routine for Remembrance Sunday.  The mind boggles.

[bs3]

1 minute ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

There are two separate sides to Irish politics.  The IRA were by no means the only side responsible for killing.

As to the wearing of poppies, I’m afraid I think it has debased the whole meaning of remembrance which should be something personal, not something for public display.  My son’s under 9s team  had a minute’s silence before their game today, I’m afraid for the life of me I couldn’t see why.  

 

Remembrance Sunday is a public and national way of remembering people who been killed while fighting for this country. It is very much a public affair. 

Ofcourse you have everyt right not to take part or wear a poppy it’s a free country, but then people can have an opinion about those who don’t wish to partake in this act of national remembrance.

 

[LondonBristolian]

2 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Stop press:  they’ve just announced that next week’s Strictly will feature a special routine for Remembrance Sunday.  The mind boggles.

I literally can't even begin to understand what that will involve...

[LondonBristolian]

1 minute ago, bs3 said:

Remembrance Sunday is a public and national way of remembering people who been killed while fighting for this country. It is very much a public affair. 

Ofcourse you have everyt right not to take part or wear a poppy it’s a free country, but then people can have an opinion about those who don’t wish to partake in this act of national remembrance.

 

Technically whether someone chooses to wear a poppy and whether someone chooses to remember are completely different things. There will be people who wish to remember the war dead but choose to not buy a poppy, or choose to buy one and not wear it. There are also people who will buy a poppy out of habit or to be seen to be wearing it but won't give five seconds' thought to the sacrifices of the two World Wars and will instead spend the minute's silence planning what they are having to eat this evening.

For many people, remembrance is a very private affair. Wearing a poppy is about being "seen" to be remembering and that's a wholly different thing. There's obviously nothing at all wrong with wanting to give a visual symbol of your beliefs or what is important to you but it is a mistake to assume that those who don't wish to be seen to be remembering are not engaging in private acts of remembrance, or to assume that everyone making a public show of remembrance is really remembering at all. 

[LondonBristolian]

6 minutes ago, bs3 said:

Remembrance Sunday is a public and national way of remembering people who been killed while fighting for this country. It is very much a public affair. 

Ofcourse you have everyt right not to take part or wear a poppy it’s a free country, but then people can have an opinion about those who don’t wish to partake in this act of national remembrance.

 

Worth adding too that the Royal British Legion would strongly disagree with you. They make very very clear that they do not agree with people being judged or criticised for not wearing a poppy. 

[Natchfever]

13 hours ago, kevster3 said:

Should check history before making such a comment, the Irish have no need to respect the horrors that British bestowed on them. 

Play in the ******* league of ireland then . Thousands of Scots died for this country. Shit club ruled by irish republicans.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

25 minutes ago, bs3 said:

Remembrance Sunday is a public and national way of remembering people who been killed while fighting for this country. It is very much a public affair. 

Ofcourse you have everyt right not to take part or wear a poppy it’s a free country, but then people can have an opinion about those who don’t wish to partake in this act of national remembrance.

 

I agree that Remembrance Sunday includes a public demonstration of remembrance, but wearing a poppy on tv or on a football field is not in itself an act of remembrance.  I choose to remember in my own way, and I hope that that act of remembrance is no less meaningful just because I choose not to make a public demonstration by being seen to wear a poppy.

[Natchfever]

30 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

There are two separate sides to Irish politics.  The IRA were by no means the only side responsible for killing.

As to the wearing of poppies, I’m afraid I think it has debased the whole meaning of remembrance which should be something personal, not something for public display.  My son’s under 9s team  had a minute’s silence before their game today, I’m afraid for the life of me I couldn’t see why.  

 

Maybe so.

Worth considering that this forum might be in German had it not been for the sacrifices given during two world wars.

I think those opposed to the red poppy might regard the lives given by uk servicemen and women outside of tbe world wars as a consequence of imperialism. I dont agree but its their perogative.

I would love to know if the views of Celtic ST holders was canvassed? Apologies if this was clarified earlier in the thread. If not then the club is shit. If so then both club and fans are shit. 

Just my opinion of course.9

[cityexile]

29 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Worth adding too that the Royal British Legion would strongly disagree with you. They make very very clear that they do not agree with people being judged or criticised for not wearing a poppy. 

Very much this. I suppose the bottom line for me is that if 'freedom' is anything, it is their right not to wear them, and the right of others to be critical of them for that decision.

I am very cynical however of the current trend towards a kind of 'remembrance porn' the press indulge in where somebody will get caught out not wearing one at some stage. I always wear one, and am proud to do so...as an act of remembrance, pure and simple, about the horrors of war and the price that is occasionally to be paid for freedom. That to me, is very different from any kind of endorsement of the actions that our armed forces, more often working class lads and lasses, get asked to fight.

I can, at its simplest, recognise the sacrifice of a squaddie in Iraq who is now supported by the Royal British Legion, asked to be there by our Government, whilst in now way wanting to be seen to endorse why they were there.

There is a kind of trend in the US which verges on worship of their armed forces, that I want none of here, thank you very much.

 

 

 

[Natchfever]

10 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

I’m aware of the connection to Ireland but it doesn’t make them any less a Scottish football club playing in the Scottish league!

Thousands of Irish fighting in the British army even in the 70s.

[cityexile]

2 hours ago, Grey Fox said:

My father was on North Atlantic convoy protection with the Royal Navy during WW2, he always said if you came across an Irish ship , you would meet a U boat soon after. For years after the war, those Irish men who did volunteer for the British Army to help in the fight against Hitler were persecuted by the Irish authorities. 

I have every sympathy with the Irish people over their treatment by the British before independence, but their conduct during WW2 was unforgivable.

I have a certain perspective. I would say it was understandable, rather than 'unforgiveable', but it all about perceptions I suppose.

In terms of those that were persecuted, that is a strong word. It was entirely allowed for Irishmen to serve in the British forces. Something like 50,000 did. Additionally, some 5k Irishmen deserted from the Irish armed forces to join the British forces. At the end of the war this latter group were denied Irish pensions and what have you, and treated like any other deserter.  Not maybe Irelands best hour for sure, but like a lot of their history it is awfully nuanced.

Going off track, but for anyone who wants more of a history lesson:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_neutrality_during_World_War_II

My perspective? My mum was brought up in coastal Kent, and just about all her older male relatives were merchant navy sailors, a group to this day in my mind that still does not get the recognition they deserve. More than one ended their life during a convoy. In many cases the risks they ran were as high as the armed forces.

My father was born in Limerick in the early 30's, and grew up during the 'emergency' in Ireland. His uncles or whatever had pretty much all been members of the IRA prior to Irish Home Rule and then fought on the pro treaty side in the Irish Civil War.

They met in England, when my father was serving in the British Army, which he did for many years, including service in N Ireland, during the troubles. He had moved to London for work in 1946, and I think they were one of the few employers that would have him, and he stuck it for 25 years.

The only reason for giving you this life history, is that having a real interest in Irish history, and kind of seeing it from every perspective, there is rarely a right or wrong answer when it comes to Irish history - just shared experiences and an awful lot of that history!

 

 

 

[Paddy31]

1 hour ago, bs3 said:

Remembrance Sunday is a public and national way of remembering people who been killed while fighting for this country. It is very much a public affair. 

Ofcourse you have everyt right not to take part or wear a poppy it’s a free country, but then people can have an opinion about those who don’t wish to partake in this act of national remembrance.

 

Well that doesn't seem like its very fair.

If it's a choice to wear the poppy, then you can't be judging or pouring scorn and approbation on those who choose not to. If you there is a right choice and a wrong choice, then there is no choice.

I don't have to wear a poppy and you don't have any right to make a judgement about that.

"...last year I decided to stop wearing the poppy, because I find this message is no longer about remembrance, sacrifice, loss and putting an end to conflict. Instead it has become an endless drumbeat that pounds out one message, that war is always inevitable and always noble, so I shall never again wear symbols that are tainted ..."

 

[Aggers71]

Anyway, same time next year?

[LondonBristolian]

15 hours ago, Paddy31 said:

Well that doesn't seem like its very fair.

If it's a choice to wear the poppy, then you can't be judging or pouring scorn and approbation on those who choose not to. If you there is a right choice and a wrong choice, then there is no choice.

I don't have to wear a poppy and you don't have any right to make a judgement about that.

"...last year I decided to stop wearing the poppy, because I find this message is no longer about remembrance, sacrifice, loss and putting an end to conflict. Instead it has become an endless drumbeat that pounds out one message, that war is always inevitable and always noble, so I shall never again wear symbols that are tainted ..."

 

I have a huge amount of respect for Harry Leslie Smith. I hoped to go and see him when he was talking at a festival I attended a couple of years ago but he had to pull out due to ill-health. A hugely impressive and admirable man.