Rainbow coloured corner flags at football matches starting Saturday

[BRISTOL86]

51 minutes ago, spudski said:

Football fans pick on anything they can that's 'different'....imagine being Welsh, fat, ginger, short, ugly, weird haircut etc playing at the Gate

Most of that gets covered just by Tomlin and I’m sure Cardiff must have a Welsh ginger somewhere!

[spudski]

4 minutes ago, We.Will.Rock.You said:

I don't care if they're black, brown, yellow. Orientals make good footballers.

I'm not so sure...I found the plastic on my Subbuteo players was far superior when produced in Italy over the Chinese manufacturing ;-)

[WolfOfWestStreet]

What is the single most important thing for a football club? Is it the stadium? Is it the manager? Is it the turnover? It's the players, investment in players. Our proudest moment here wasn't when we increased profits by 17%, or beat up 50 gas heads without losing a single member of the firm. No. It was a young Swedish guy, first job in the country, hardly spoke a word of English, but he came to us and went 'Mr Johnson, will you be the Godfather to my child?' Didn't happen in the end. We had to let him go, he was rubbish. He was rubbish

[Tom Fleuriot]

@Bar BS3: aware I've quoted you a lot in the below.  Not a personal attack: just that you seem to be running with the points.  Please read in a "sober discussion" sense rather than a "having a go" sense - really not meant in an aggressive / argumentative spirit.

10 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Why don’t they just get the players to play wearing mini skirts and have done with it..?! 

The World has gone ####ing mental! It will soon be socially unacceptable to be in a heterosexual relationship with your wife. Especially if you are outrageous enough to be white & work..! 

Having rainbow corner flags is not saying that every football fan and player has to be gay.  It is affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay.

20 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I’m all for people being who they want and doing what they want [...]

Like this guy's post above.

20 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I just don’t really appreciate having it forced on me that I must accept all different types of people, when I am doing anyway, using my own moral compass! 

My point however is that why are they so adamant that there are loads of gay footballers who are worried about coming out..? The stats in many posts above make it very possible that there really aren’t that many. 

Having rainbow corner flags is not saying that every football fan and player has to be gay.  It is affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay

10 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

I’m sure they have their reasons for not doing. And why are people so convinced that professional football is full of closet homosexuals..? Had it not occurred to anyone that players might, just maybe, not be gay..?! 

"players might not be gay?"

10 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Genuine question. Why the “rubbish” reactions to this post? 

Is it really that outrageous to suggest that maybe football doesn’t contain many gay players..?

Having rainbow corner flags is not saying that every football player is gay.  It is affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay

9 hours ago, spudski said:

If you are neither a man or a woman and you want to play professional football...or any other sport come to that matter...how does that work?

You can see it coming to a point where 'all inclusive' will try to stop male and female professional sports. It's going that way.

Where is it going that way? In what sport?  Don;t say under 10s, because that it a completely different circumstance.

As for any footballer 'coming out'...I really don't understand why anyone has too. Why is anyone interested in anyone's sexuality? It's none of our business.

Having rainbow corner flags is not saying that every gay football player must tell us that they are gay. It is affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay.

Do straight people go around telling all and sundry in the workplace that they are straight? No...so why should other sexualities.

Actually, yes we kind of do.  We mention our "wife".  We talk about our kids.  We turn to a colleague and agree that somebody is hot.  Or not hot.  So yes, we do.  Not that it is relevant.

It's all coming across as very much attention seeking and 'look at me, look at me'.

Having rainbow corner flags is not saying that everybody's favourite player must be a gay football player. It is affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay.

Get on with your life...forget what others think. Be offended. The principle of 'sticks and stones will break my bones, but names will never hurt me', still applies.

Agree.

Being offended doesn't hurt you...be offended...whoever offended you is just a dick...deal with it and move on.

Agree.

So many bloody sensitive people in this world.

Agree.  But this does not mean that we cannot also affirm that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay.

They should be thankful they aren't living in a mud hut, treking 10 miles a day for water, or starving or being bombed.

Can't see that argument adding value.  The same could be said about you.  Or we could acknowledge Maslow's hierarchy of needs.

I can't see many like that, sat wearing a feather boa, trying to work out whether they want a dick or vagina over their next meal...rant over ;-)

But what if the feather boa is fabulous?

 

9 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

Doing a quick google search suggests that the actual percentage albeit in 2013, was just 1.5%! 

It does say that almost 5% refused to answer or “didn’t know” so even if you “credit” that percentage to the debate, you are probably looking at 6% MAX as a national ratio. 

So, even without allowing for higher percentages within other industries, which is undoubtably the case, you COULD suggest that 1-1.5 players per first team squad COULD be gay. 

Now consider that it’s a male dominated, traditionally working class sport, with players rarely excelling academically and probably not very influenced by the theatre or arts.... is it starting to look slightly more plausible that there aren’t actually that many footballers waiting to come out..?!  

 

8 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

I shall elaborate and reiterate my conclusions....!

If there are, say, 2,500 professional footballers in England. (Approx 25 x 92 & round it up) 

That would mean that, by national statistics, there COULD be 37 ish gay players. 

Now, are you telling me that Prime time TV on a Saturday night couldn’t easily account for those 37 ish gay individuals above the national ratio..?

So, is it really inconceivable that football just doesn’t have any noteworthy number of gay players..? So why this big campaign to hunt them down and then make them come out..?! 

 

375 ish gay players.  And you need to factor in time.  Assume that a career lasts 20 years (we'll put managers to one side).  That means 17 extra a year.  So in fifty years 850 more.  In England.  

Then let's add another 400 players in twenty countries or so that really like football (i.e. where being a gay footballer would get coverage).  That gives us another 120.

So opting for your low statistical bar, let's say that you're correct that homosexuals simply choose not to enter football.  Let's say that only one in fifty gay people choose to enter into football.  We would still expect, say, 20 or so.  Yet we have not had one that has made the media.

1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

I don’t, not really. I did look up some statistical facts to research my views (unlike @Robbored)

As I’ve said in many other posts on this, I work in an industry where there are a high percentage of gay people, comparatively. 

 

There's another point of course on this "not a common industry" argument: the less inclusive the sport is, the smaller the talent pool.  There may be some amazing gay people who would have been great footballers but didn't even try because they were told gay people don't go into football.  Maybe we should look for an initiative that is about affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay.  Something small.  Like rainbow laces or corner flags.

[We.Will.Rock.You]

3 minutes ago, Tom Fleuriot said:

@Bar BS3: aware I've quoted you a lot in the below.  Not a personal attack: just that you seem to be running with the points.  Please read in a "sober discussion" sense rather than a "having a go" sense - really not meant in an aggressive / argumentative spirit.

Having rainbow corner flags is not saying that every football fan and player has to be gay.  It is affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay.

Like this guy's post above.

Having rainbow corner flags is not saying that every football fan and player has to be gay.  It is affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay

"players might not be gay?"

Having rainbow corner flags is not saying that every football player is gay.  It is affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay

 

 

375 ish gay players.  And you need to factor in time.  Assume that a career lasts 20 years (we'll put managers to one side).  That means 17 extra a year.  So in fifty years 850 more.  In England.  

Then let's add another 400 players in twenty countries or so that really like football (i.e. where being a gay footballer would get coverage).  That gives us another 120.

So opting for your low statistical bar, let's say that you're correct that homosexuals simply choose not to enter football.  Let's say that only one in fifty gay people choose to enter into football.  We would still expect, say, 20 or so.  Yet we have not had one that has made the media.

There's another point of course on this "not a common industry" argument: the less inclusive the sport is, the smaller the talent pool.  There may be some amazing gay people who would have been great footballers but didn't even try because they were told gay people don't go into football.  Maybe we should look for an initiative that is about affirming that everyone in football is fine about football fans and players being gay.  Something small.  Like rainbow laces or corner flags.

Too many questions. Chill out. GBH of the ears. No, no, no. Not for me, thank you.

[Distortia]

Why the hell do people have to object to this? That includes saying it's 'pointless'. It affects none of us at all, and probably makes a small group of people feel better about themselves. Don't people have more important things to worry about in life?

[jj77]

In my opinion I don't think football should be used by a pressure group to push their own agenda.

[We.Will.Rock.You]

1 minute ago, Distortia said:

Why the hell do people have to object to this? That includes saying it's 'pointless'. It affects none of us at all, and probably makes a small group of people feel better about themselves. Don't people have more important things to worry about in life?

Exactly. There's people starving in the world, which I hate.

[Aizoon]

This is all very well, and good luck to those fighting homophobia, but WILL NO ONE THINK OF THE HEDGEHOGS?

Our favourite native mammal is facing extinction, and I don't see any spiky corner flags  

[Bar BS3]

13 minutes ago, Distortia said:

Why the hell do people have to object to this? That includes saying it's 'pointless'. It affects none of us at all, and probably makes a small group of people feel better about themselves. Don't people have more important things to worry about in life?

When you put it that way, you are right. 

I think the thread has been more about the wider issue things than the actual topic itself. Of course, if having Rainbow corner flags helps anyone in any way, feel more accepted, then it’s no skin off anyone else’s nose. 

 

[Drew Peacock]

11 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

So you believe that only 1.5% of men at the local dance school or amature dramatic club would be gay..?

Buggered if I know

[SARJ]

24 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

When you put it that way, you are right. 

I think the thread has been more about the wider issue things than the actual topic itself. Of course, if having Rainbow corner flags helps anyone in any way, feel more accepted, then it’s no skin off anyone else’s nose. 

 

The FA can do all these public rainbow displays if they want, but IMO it won't change a thing. Skin head Dave who's 20 stone, been on the odd FLA rally and has 5 pints down the Spanish pre-match is not going to suddenly become accepting of homosexuals just because the corner flags are now rainbow colored.

[View from the Dolman]

45 minutes ago, jj77 said:

In my opinion I don't think football should be used by a pressure group to push their own agenda.

Would you also want to stop "Let's Kick Racism out of Football"?

What about embracing the Poppy Appeal? Not everyone supports the wearing of a Poppy so to some that's an agenda.

What about fundraising for surgery for children that the NHS (perhaps because of funding restrictions from central Government) doesn't fund? Is that having an agenda too?

[We.Will.Rock.You]

26 minutes ago, SARJ said:

The FA can do all these public rainbow displays if they want, but IMO it won't change a thing. Skin head Dave who's 20 stone, been on the odd FLA rally and has 5 pints down the Spanish pre-match is not going to suddenly become accepting of homosexuals just because the corner flags are now rainbow colored.

Nothing ever changes from staying the same. Quite literally.

[Bar BS3]

24 minutes ago, SARJ said:

The FA can do all these public rainbow displays if they want, but IMO it won't change a thing. Skin head Dave who's 20 stone, been on the odd FLA rally and has 5 pints down the Spanish pre-match is not going to suddenly become accepting of homosexuals just because the corner flags are now rainbow colored.

Sadly, I think the stereotype of “Dave” is part of the problem. 

Just because he’s an “old school lad” doesn’t mean to say that he is homophobic. Nowadays, chances are that he probably works with someone who’s gay. Maybe has a gay friend, or even relative. Yet because he’s got a shaved head, likes a pie, a pint and follows football, he’s assumed to be homophobic. 

I’m pretty sure that in this day and age, is someone is shouting direct abuse at someone, in any situation, simply because they are gay, it’s them that would be the social outcast, not the target of their abuse. 

[bearded_red]

Loved this thread being taken over by Office quotes.

[We.Will.Rock.You]

Gays? Football? Bloodbath.

[DaveF]

9 minutes ago, bearded_red said:

Loved this thread being taken over by Office quotes.

Will there ever be a gay born that can swim faster than a shark?

[Northern Red]

I know someone who is gay and it is no laughing matter, particularly for his wife. And she's got alopecia. So... not a happy homelife.

[WolfOfWestStreet]

That's one of the main arguments about letting gay men into a football team.

I havent got a problem with that, a gay man isn't going to put me off, i can handle myself. But if during a match, is he going to be concentrating on the game, or is he going to be looking at me and going "Ooh. He looks tasty in his kit".

And I'm not homophobic, all right? Come round, look at my CDs. You'll see Queen, George Michael, Pet Shop Boys. They're all bummers.

[Mike Hunt-Hertz]

2 minutes ago, Northern Red said:

I know someone who is gay and it is no laughing matter, particularly for his wife. And she's got alopecia. So... not a happy homelife.

Can she pass as a Jimmy Somerville?

[cider-manc]

Sorry I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread and sift though the repetitive arguments....

So apologies if this has been mentioned already...

 A lot of missing the point by some on here. This isn't about if there are gay footballers or not- This is about showing acceptance throughout football.  This is about making the beautiful game for everyone-  much like we had to overcome racism and sexism in the game (I know both are present but it's nowhere near what it was). Perhaps there are gay people who won't attend games because they feel they might be subjected to abuse or worse physical assault? Perhaps this will help persuade them to go to a game and feel safe. 

In terms of the players themselves- The only reason I'd encourage any gay players to come out is the positive impact it could have. It could give courage to a young person struggling with their sexuality or it could help change the minds of some narrow minded individuals. However I understand why they choose not to and frankly its none of mine or anyones business.

 

[WolfOfWestStreet]

If you were to ask me to name three geniuses, I probably wouldn’t say Einstein, Newton...you know.

I’d go Norton, Winton, Clary. Sessions

[LondonBristolian]

1 minute ago, cider-manc said:

Sorry I couldn't be bothered to read the whole thread and sift though the repetitive arguments....

So apologies if this has been mentioned already...

 A lot of missing the point by some on here. This isn't about if there are gay footballers or not- This is about showing acceptance throughout football.  This is about making the beautiful game for everyone-  much like we had to overcome racism and sexism in the game (I know both are present but it's nowhere near what it was). Perhaps there are gay people who won't attend games because they feel they might be subjected to abuse or worse physical assault? Perhaps this will help persuade them to go to a game and feel safe. 

In terms of the players themselves- The only reason I'd encourage any gay players to come out is the positive impact it could have. It could give courage to a young person struggling with their sexuality or it could help change the minds of some narrow minded individuals. However I understand why they choose not to and frankly its none of mine or anyones business.

 

Indeed.

In terms of the people who have asked "what does it matter whether or not any footballers have come out as gay?", I would say it doesn't really matter one iota. However what does matter is if some footballers, or indeed anyone else, feel unable to go out in public with the person they love due to a fear that it will lead to repercussions after their sexuality is exposed in the media. It isn't about the need to make some political statement or get special treatment or whatever else. It is about people being able to go out when they want, with whoever they want, and be affectionate whoever they want to in public without repercussions.

Sadly the first footballer to come out will probably be a big deal in the media. But hopefully it would mean enough would quickly follow that those footballers are then free to live their lives just as the rest of us are. But if, at the moment, there are gay footballers having to hide huge parts of their live, that's clearly going to be quite distressing for them and could well impact on the performance on the pitch. Trying to make football a more inclusive place increases the chance a player will feel they can be comfortable in themselves. Some people might think that important and some people might not but I struggle to see how anyone can see that as a bad thing. 

[Bar BS3]

It’s good to see Lee Tomlin backing the campaign. 

 

[Major Isewater]

4 hours ago, spudski said:

It's very simple though Fordy...you just ban anyone who is abusing.

The same way is if anyone was shouting racist remarks these days.

Football fans pick on anything they can that's 'different'....imagine being Welsh, fat, ginger, short, ugly, weird haircut etc playing at the Gate

Martin Woolford never got that much stick.

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, SARJ said:

The FA can do all these public rainbow displays if they want, but IMO it won't change a thing. Skin head Dave who's 20 stone, been on the odd FLA rally and has 5 pints down the Spanish pre-match is not going to suddenly become accepting of homosexuals just because the corner flags are now rainbow colored.

Of course he isn't but he might start to feel a bit more conscious of how the crowd feel about what he is doing and feel more embarrassed to shout abuse. It's a bit like the clampdown on racism at matches. Of course that hasn't "solved" racism but it has meant racist idiots no longer feel the crowd will be on their side if they start shouting abuse at players. 

[Major Isewater]

One in three men are homosexual , which means that if you're having a beer with two straight men  then you are gay . 

Cussn't argue with statistics. 

[LondonBristolian]

4 hours ago, spudski said:

It's very simple though Fordy...you just ban anyone who is abusing.

The same way is if anyone was shouting racist remarks these days.

Football fans pick on anything they can that's 'different'....imagine being Welsh, fat, ginger, short, ugly, weird haircut etc playing at the Gate

Thing is, if someone has a weird haircut and doesn't like the abuse, they can just go and get a different haircut. If someone really hates being abused for being ginger then - whilst they shouldn't have to - they can shave their head of buy a bottle of hair dye. I'd argue both of those things are a little bit less important to most people than having to conceal or avoid being seen out with the person you love. 

[Eddie Hitler]

12 hours ago, David Brent said:

1 in 10, apparently. That seems quite high.

It depends upon your line of work; I have spent my career in offices and it's more like 1 in 30 or 40 but in the theatre it's probably 1 in 3 or 4.

I agree that 1 in 10 seems way too high an estimate.