Soft pens / Stonewall pens

[Tangle Foot]

 

After seeing the penalty given in the Merseyside derby may pundits have described it as ‘soft’, but still a legitimate penalty. 

Apparently the definition of a soft penalty is:

Referees award penalties for an infringement in the penalty area, for example a defender may handle the ball or foul an opponent but sometimes it is not always easy to make these decisions. We use the phrase ‘soft penalty‘ to describe a situation when a referee gives a penalty that should not really have been given; perhaps a player had dived or pretended to win the penalty. The opposite of soft penalty would be a stonewall penalty which is a clear penalty with no doubt attached to it. Soft penalty.

So who is right? Jurgen Klopp, or many pundits/journalists. If it was ‘soft’ does that mean that the referee conned?

[Bryans Left Peg]

Lovren has clearly pushed him and I would say technically, it is a penalty, but he's clearly made a meal out of it, backing into him and then diving forward.

There's no consistency in the game though and this happens about 5 times per corner and nothing is ever given.

You win some, you lose some. 

 

Too much inconsistency these days and it's become part & parcel of the game as the FA don't appear to do anything about it.

[42nite]

 

My choice would always be a Parker.

 

[havanatopia]

And this topic is another reason I occasionally despise the relative rantings of Neville as a pundit. His 'words to the effect' remarks after the incident..

1. How can he give that, no way is that a penalty.

2. That is not a penalty in a million. He touched him and he went down.

3. Oh look he feigned it, no way a penalty so soft.

4. That is never a penalty, even with that little nudge.

.. in short, he was gradually coming round to the realisation that in fact, by rule of law, it was a penalty because there was clear contact and it was a push and at that speed you can go down easily with a slight 'nudge'. Such is the 'up his backside' arrogance of Neville though he cannot bring himself to saying 'you know what i got that one wrong' Maybe he will in a day or two after someone in his family has slapped him across the chops and told him to his face 'you know what, you are a bit of a narcissist, isn't it about time that for once you drop your childish dogma and be human'  Guy drives me nuts with his ridiculously arrogant hyperbole. 

Hey, everyone has an opinion right?

[TV Tom]

18 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

And this topic is another reason I occasionally despise the relative rantings of Neville as a pundit. His 'words to the effect' remarks after the incident..

1. How can he give that, no way is that a penalty.

2. That is not a penalty in a million. He touched him and he went down.

3. Oh look he feigned it, no way a penalty so soft.

4. That is never a penalty, even with that little nudge.

.. in short, he was gradually coming round to the realisation that in fact, by rule of law, it was a penalty because there was clear contact and it was a push and at that speed you can go down easily with a slight 'nudge'. Such is the 'up his backside' arrogance of Neville though he cannot bring himself to saying 'you know what i got that one wrong' Maybe he will in a day or two after someone in his family has slapped him across the chops and told him to his face 'you know what, you are a bit of a narcissist, isn't it about time that for once you drop your childish dogma and be human'  Guy drives me nuts with his ridiculously arrogant hyperbole. 

Hey, everyone has an opinion right?

Best pundit on TV 

[havanatopia]

1 hour ago, harrys said:

Best pundit on TV 

Very knowledgeable and easy to understand.. On those counts he is up there although far from the best but his failings drag him down significantly in my opinion and as much as I try he just keeps ending up irritating the 'Red Austin 1100' out of me .

[cidered abroad]

As far as I'm aware, the laws of the game do not state anything about the severity of the contact. So a push is a push so it's a foul. Lovren was doing what so many players do. He pushed him but not too hard in the belief that he would get away with it.

Well done referee.

[Nibor]

It was never a penalty. Lovren puts his hands up to fend off the player running into him, he uses no force and critically does not in any way impede the ******* cheat who dives. 

This idea that contact is a foul is absolutely wrong, we've got a generation of fans that follow Andy Gray's nonsense opinion like a religion and need to read the bloody rules. 

Mourinho should also be shot for suggesting Herrera's attempt to cheat was a refereeing mistake. He's up there with Colin and Penis for the game's most classless liar award. 

[ZiderEyed]

1 minute ago, Nibor said:

It was never a penalty. Lovren puts his hands up to fend off the player running into him, he uses no force and critically does not in any way impede the ******* cheat who dives. 

This idea that contact is a foul is absolutely wrong, we've got a generation of fans that follow Andy Gary's nonsense opinion like a religion and need to read the bloody rules. 

Mourinho should also be shot for suggesting Herrera's attempt to cheat was a refereeing mistake. He's up there with Colin and Penis for the game's most classless liar. 

Even if it was a foul, it bloody well shouldn't be. Pathetic, this "right to go down" nonsense really has to ******* stop. There has to be a happy medium between Chris Wilder and Phil Neville.

[Nibor]

1 minute ago, ZiderEyed said:

Even if it was a foul, it bloody well shouldn't be. Pathetic, this "right to go down" nonsense really has to ******* stop. There has to be a happy medium between Chris Wilder and Phil Neville.

It's TV producers trying to introduce some sort of pantomime drama via pundits and the lowest common denominator of viewers lapping it up. Been going on since day one of Sky Sports. Cheating is cheating, and if a player doesn't make every attempt to stay on their feet and carry on that's exactly what they're doing. 

[ZiderEyed]

Just now, Nibor said:

It's TV producers trying to introduce some sort of pantomime drama via pundits and the lowest common denominator of viewers lapping it up. Been going on since day one of Sky Sports. Cheating is cheating, and if a player doesn't make every attempt to stay on their feet and carry on that's exactly what they're doing. 

Bang on there. Faux drama for those who watch more football on the sofa than in the ground. 

[downendcity]

46 minutes ago, Nibor said:

It was never a penalty. Lovren puts his hands up to fend off the player running into him, he uses no force and critically does not in any way impede the ******* cheat who dives. 

This idea that contact is a foul is absolutely wrong, we've got a generation of fans that follow Andy Gray's nonsense opinion like a religion and need to read the bloody rules. 

Mourinho should also be shot for suggesting Herrera's attempt to cheat was a refereeing mistake. He's up there with Colin and Penis for the game's most classless liar award. 

If that was a penalty then I am looking forward to about a dozen penalties a game for the "pushing and holding" that still happens at every corner kick.

Lovren was foolish to us this hands in the penalty area and run the risk of being penalised, especially as the striker was running away from goal. However, I agree with you in that the striker ran into Lovren trying to get his body between the defender and the ball and Lovren put his hands up as a natural reaction to that, rather than an offensive push, which is how the ref saw it.

Wonder what that ref would have made of the all in wrestling that Duric was subjected to on Friday night?

 

[downendcity]

48 minutes ago, Nibor said:

It's TV producers trying to introduce some sort of pantomime drama via pundits and the lowest common denominator of viewers lapping it up. Been going on since day one of Sky Sports. Cheating is cheating, and if a player doesn't make every attempt to stay on their feet and carry on that's exactly what they're doing. 

The first item on the agenda for all TV football programmes is looking at the contentious decisions in the game, not a great performance, individual skills or spectacular goals. 

I am sure one of the reasons is that with the number of cameras at games they are able to show incidents from every angle and through this hope they can show where the official got it wrong thereby creating the debate which justifies the stupid money that pundits get paid.

 

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, ZiderEyed said:

Even if it was a foul, it bloody well shouldn't be. Pathetic, this "right to go down" nonsense really has to ******* stop. There has to be a happy medium between Chris Wilder and Phil Neville.

Defenders need to learn to defend. They need to learn risk v reward. 

Any foul / infringement in the box is a penalty. That’s the rules / laws!

If Lovren keeps his hands off of DCL’s back and he falls over, then DCL gets booked for diving  I’m a Liverpool fan but a penalty all day long.

As for Fleck, red card all day long  he actually got a bit of the ball, but that’s irrelevant.  Reckless, off the ground, studs up !

 

[GrahamC]

20 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Defenders need to learn to defend. They need to learn risk v reward. 

Any foul / infringement in the box is a penalty. That’s the rules / laws!

 

So true and can I give Nathan Baker as a really great example of this.

Bit reckless in his first spell with us, now an exemplar of the well timed intervention, that one on Friday when he was last man was truly brilliant.

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

So true and can I give Nathan Baker as a really great example of this.

Bit reckless in his first spell with us, now an exemplar of the well timed intervention, that one on Friday when he was last man was truly brilliant.

As was Bailey’s late on. 

[havanatopia]

2 hours ago, Nibor said:

It was never a penalty. Lovren puts his hands up to fend off the player running into him, he uses no force and critically does not in any way impede the ******* cheat who dives. 

This idea that contact is a foul is absolutely wrong, we've got a generation of fans that follow Andy Gray's nonsense opinion like a religion and need to read the bloody rules. 

Mourinho should also be shot for suggesting Herrera's attempt to cheat was a refereeing mistake. He's up there with Colin and Penis for the game's most classless liar award. 

I was listening to your argument until you lost me with a figurative suggestion of murder then you lost my attention.

On point... I think Lovren pushed the guy and he went down because of it. Like I said it does not take much of a push at that speed and with that slight of frame so for me it was a clear penalty.

 

[Luxo Jr.]

I don't think I could even qualify that as a push. Football is not a non-contact sport. Light contact on the back should not send a player down.

Could/should this not conceivably come under the ruling of a player deceiving the referee? Calvert-Lewin does not get enough contact to go down, simple as. Anywhere else on the pitch that isn't a foul and the striker stays on his feet. Also shows a lack of confidence that he doesn't try and score from that position.

That game made me angry, just because it only served to improve Allardyce's reputation, when in reality Everton managed the game fairly poorly and were gifted a penalty out of nothing.

[havanatopia]

I hope and think the powers that be are looking at all the camera angles and they will be the ones to decide if it should or should not have been a penalty. None of us have the benefit of that information.

[elhombrecito]

The thing that annoys me is when a pundit will say "there was contact, so he's entitled to go down" - um, nope, football is a contact sport. If the contact wasn't enough to cause him to fall over and wasn't excessive then it's not a bloody foul.

[Leveller]

That was a very clear penalty. Loveren  got caught out of position, the Everton player was not looking to fall but clearly lost his balance at speed when he was given a shove. 100% nailed on. Cynical defender surprised when he’s caught out. 

I constantly argue that too many free kicks are given when there is accidental body contact, but that doesn’t include a desperate push in the back.

[Leveller]

7 minutes ago, El Hombrecito said:

The thing that annoys me is when a pundit will say "there was contact, so he's entitled to go down" - um, nope, football is a contact sport. If the contact wasn't enough to cause him to fall over and wasn't excessive then it's not a bloody foul.

But in this case it very clearly was.

[Nibor]

5 minutes ago, Leveller said:

That was a very clear penalty. Loveren  got caught out of position, the Everton player was not looking to fall but clearly lost his balance at speed when he was given a shove. 100% nailed on. Cynical defender surprised when he’s caught out. 

I constantly argue that too many free kicks are given when there is accidental body contact, but that doesn’t include a desperate push in the back.

Lovren just puts his hands up to fend off the player running into him, the collision was caused by the Everton player who then dived.  Not in a million years was it a pen.

[Leveller]

3 minutes ago, Nibor said:

Lovren just puts his hands up to fend off the player running into him, the collision was caused by the Everton player who then dived.  Not in a million years was it a pen.

We’ll have to agree to disagree then! Not in a million years was it a dive.

[Super]

19 minutes ago, Leveller said:

We’ll have to agree to disagree then! Not in a million years was it a dive.

Course it was a dive! You actually think there was enough contact to push him to the ground?

[Leveller]

Absolutely, yes. It doesn’t take much contact to throw you off balance when you are moving at high speed. You must know that if you’ve played the game.

Out of interest did you see Danny Murphy on MOTD? He said something like “any fan who thinks that wasn’t a penalty is just plain wrong”.

[Super]

1 minute ago, Leveller said:

Absolutely, yes. It doesn’t take much contact to throw you off balance when you are moving at high speed. You must know that if you’ve played the game.

Out of interest did you see Danny Murphy on MOTD? He said something like “any fan who thinks that wasn’t a penalty is just plain wrong”.

Because it is the thing to do in football these days to throw yourself to the ground trying to con the officials. If Billy Sharp did that on Friday I guarantee many on here would see it different.

[Leveller]

1 minute ago, Super said:

Because it is the thing to do in football these days to throw yourself to the ground trying to con the officials. If Billy Sharp did that on Friday I guarantee many on here would see it different.

I’ll take Murphy’s opinion and experience on this one, ahead of “many on here”.

[Nibor]

7 minutes ago, Leveller said:

Absolutely, yes. It doesn’t take much contact to throw you off balance when you are moving at high speed. You must know that if you’ve played the game.

Come off it, that's the excuse Andy Gray trots out.  It's occasionally true when you're caught below your centre of gravity e.g. a heel clip, not when a hand touches your back lightly. 

This sort of after the fact rationalisation doesn't make it ok to run into a defender at pace and then dive and claim a foul.  It's just what cheats have managed to get normalised.

A player trying to stay on their feet in that situation would have been able to easily, he was simply not impeded.

[Leveller]

14 minutes ago, Nibor said:

Come off it, that's the excuse Andy Gray trots out.  It's occasionally true when you're caught below your centre of gravity e.g. a heel clip, not when a hand touches your back lightly. 

This sort of after the fact rationalisation doesn't make it ok to run into a defender at pace and then dive and claim a foul.  It's just what cheats have managed to get normalised.

A player trying to stay on their feet in that situation would have been able to easily, he was simply not impeded.

I don’t have Sky snd have no knowledge of Andy Gray. However, I’m sure you’re more likely to lose your balance if you are leaning forward (as you do when you are running) and are pushed high in the back. It’s almost inevitable if you think about it.