Coppello Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 I hate the world class debate. The definition is 'a person, thing, or activity of or among the best in the world.' Being consistent with the definition, he would have to make a world XI team and probably be in the top 2/3 centre backs in the world. Is he better than Boateng, Pique, Sergio Ramos, Bonucci, Godin etc. No he's not, so he clearly isn't world class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swede Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Perhaps Saints will be in for Flinty for £50M at current market values Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 8 hours ago, Up The City! said: But again, my point still stands. So a defender from say Burnley or Bournemouth can also be called world class because they play against these same players? I put it really simply in my last post so I'm confused how you are still able to misunderstand. If player X is playing against world class players several times a season you can gauge if they are in that league. So no, obviously. Player X could only be considered world class if they consistently put in world class performances against those world class opposition several times a season. It’s boring having to break it down like that especially because I don’t really care about premier league football and who is or isn’t ‘world class’ but here you go - hope you get my point now. Quote Our defence must not be far off world class after shutting out Ibra, Martial, Rashford and Lukaku if we are using this logic. No, because it was a one off game. Quote Sorry but world class for me is constantly putting in world class performances for a world class club against world class players such as the ones you mentioned but also the super world class players like Messi, Ronaldo etc. Why does it have to be for a ‘world class club’? Quote Rio Ferdinand wasn't world class before he joined United was he? Just like with VD he had the potential to be and that's all Liverpool are buying here, potential. It’s not the same but I can’t really be bothered to discuss Rio Ferdinand as it dilutes the original - quite simple - point yet further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davefevs Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 9 hours ago, Coppello said: I hate the world class debate. The definition is 'a person, thing, or activity of or among the best in the world.' Being consistent with the definition, he would have to make a world XI team and probably be in the top 2/3 centre backs in the world. Is he better than Boateng, Pique, Sergio Ramos, Bonucci, Godin etc. No he's not, so he clearly isn't world class. That’s a pretty good definition. My own version of world class is for a world select team to play a similar world select team. If you get into either side you’re world class. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
And Its Smith Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 9 hours ago, Up The City! said: But again, my point still stands. So a defender from say Burnley or Bournemouth can also be called world class because they play against these same players? Our defence must not be far off world class after shutting out Ibra, Martial, Rashford and Lukaku if we are using this logic. Sorry but world class for me is constantly putting in world class performances for a world class club against world class players such as the ones you mentioned but also the super world class players like Messi, Ronaldo etc. Rio Ferdinand wasn't world class before he joined United was he? Just like with VD he had the potential to be and that's all Liverpool are buying here, potential. Either you cant read and digest or you are a WUM. Which is it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Skin Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 14 hours ago, ZiderEyed said: THE best CB Liverpool could sign. Suits their high pressing down to the ground. I find the whole pursuit of ONE player alone akin to Klopp behaving like a spolit child. Constrast this to our approach these days. Identify the attributes you are looking for in a player, the personality traits you want in a player, set the budget for what you want to pay, then draw up a list of players that meet these, and start negotiating with a number of clubs to get the best value. I know which approach I prefer. Much more sustainable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Chaplain Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 14 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: So playing against Man City etc several times a season isn't playing on a world class stage? Did he bother to turn up for those games? I've lost track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Up The City! Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: I put it really simply in my last post so I'm confused how you are still able to misunderstand. If player X is playing against world class players several times a season you can gauge if they are in that league. So no, obviously. Player X could only be considered world class if they consistently put in world class performances against those world class opposition several times a season. It’s boring having to break it down like that especially because I don’t really care about premier league football and who is or isn’t ‘world class’ but here you go - hope you get my point now. No, because it was a one off game. Why does it have to be for a ‘world class club’? It’s not the same but I can’t really be bothered to discuss Rio Ferdinand as it dilutes the original - quite simple - point yet further. You said if someone plays against Man City a couple of times a season then they are world class, again that could be classed for every CB in the prem? Liverpool aren't a world class club right now imo but at the risk of stating the obvious, moving from a club like Southampton to a bigger club with huge expectations is difficult. How many talented players have we seen move to these big clubs over the years and failed as they havnt had the right mentality? Only a certain type of personality has what it takes to be a world class player for a world class player. I don't know if VD has what it takes to perform for a big club, the 75 million price tag could be an issue for him. The bottom line is no player can be classed as world class when playing for Southampton. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chinapig Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 3 minutes ago, Up The City! said: You said if someone plays against Man City a couple of times a season then they are world class, again that could be classed for every CB in the prem? Liverpool aren't a world class club right now imo but at the risk of stating the obvious, moving from a club like Southampton to a bigger club with huge expectations is difficult. How many talented players have we seen move to these big clubs over the years and failed as they havnt had the right mentality? Only a certain type of personality has what it takes to be a world class player for a world class player. I don't know if VD has what it takes to perform for a big club, the 75 million price tag could be an issue for him. The bottom line is no player can be classed as world class when playing for Southampton. I'd say about Liverpool what Mourinho said about Man Utd recently: they are a world class club but not currently a world class team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRISTOL86 Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 IMO a world class player is one who has very few of similar ability. One who you'd have to give serious thought to before omitting from a 'Best XI' in the world. Van Dijk is not world class by my definition. There are many players even just in the same division who you could make a case for being as good if not better than him. That does not a world class player make. The money is a sign of several factors, an inflating marketplace, the time of the season and the desperation of the buying club rather than the player's ability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 15 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: So playing against Man City etc several times a season isn't playing on a world class stage? 11 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: If Van Dijk or anyone else is competing against the like start of Aguero, Hazard, Kane, Ibra etc who are world class players several times a season - you are able to assess whether or not Van Dijk is in that same bracket. 2 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said: If player X is playing against world class players several times a season you can gauge if they are in that league. Player X could only be considered world class if they consistently put in world class performances against those world class opposition several times a season. 29 minutes ago, Up The City! said: You said if someone plays against Man City a couple of times a season then they are world class, again that could be classed for every CB in the prem? Are you drunk? I'm amazed I've actually had to do this, but above I've quoted my posts on the subject and put in bold the bits you seem to be missing. Clearly that's not what I'm saying. Quote The bottom line is no player can be classed as world class when playing for Southampton. Of course they can. If Messi played for Southampton it doesn't stop him being the best player in the world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luxo Jr. Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 As usual the fee gets in the way of the real story - Liverpool sign one of the best performing centre backs from last season, and their top target from the summer. Man City and Chelsea were in for him too, but he chose Liverpool. Money is almost irrelevant at this stage, because they got their man. Liverpool haven't had a decent centre back pairing since Hyypia and Carragher. They're now just a top quality keeper and maybe a Henderson replacement from having a team worthy of challenging. Also really don't understand why it's considered more crazy that a centre back is going for this money - surely if attackers/attacking teams are better than ever, then a top quality centre back (which van Dijk almost certainly is) should be just as valuable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Up The City! Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 2 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said: Are you drunk? I'm amazed I've actually had to do this, but above I've quoted my posts on the subject and put in bold the bits you seem to be missing. Clearly that's not what I'm saying. Of course they can. If Messi played for Southampton it doesn't stop him being the best player in the world. I think your the drunk one, I can clearly see what your saying but clearly I don't agree with what your saying. Others have also posted they they don't think he's world class but your not picking a debate with them? Strange that. OK let's simplify this for you. Any player who isn't a world class player isn't going to become a world class player at Southampton. Simply impossible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phileas Fogg Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 1 minute ago, Up The City! said: I think your the drunk one, I can clearly see what your saying but clearly I don't agree with what your saying. Others have also posted they they don't think he's world class but your not picking a debate with them? Strange that. I haven't said he is world class. I haven't watched enough of him to know so i'm not debating others about it. What I'm saying is that you can assess whether a player qualifies for that title by watching them consistently against world class opposition - of which there are a few in the Premier League. That's what I am debating with you - or rather I am trying to show you that you've missed my point several times. 1 minute ago, Up The City! said: OK let's simplify this for you. Any player who isn't a world class player isn't going to become a world class player at Southampton. Simply impossible. But that's not what you said in the post before? There's no reason why not, granted - it would be easier for a special talent to develop and grow at Barcelona or Man City but it's not 'impossible' at another club - it's a silly thing to say. I actually find the 'world class' or not debate pretty dull so I don't really enjoy posting about this debate but I'm amazed you've repeatedly failed to understand pretty straightforward posts by myself and others in this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JamesBCFC Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 16 hours ago, RedDave said: Foresight. Same way I can say Joe Bryan is good enough for the Premier League without seeing him play there We have seen Bryan put in fantastic performances against multiple Premier League sides this season and outshine the opposing left back every single time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
westred1 Posted December 28, 2017 Report Share Posted December 28, 2017 Sol Bamba is better than VVD according to Warnock Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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