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Never Again...


Kid in the Riot

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Don't agree with this at all.

They had the whole of the Atyeo, yes... we filled up three stands, each bigger than the Atyeo. If all three of those stands created an atmosphere, the Wolves fans would have barely been heard. That's a big ask maybe, but to blame the result to some degree on there being too many away fans? Behave. 

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The Birmingham match at the end of last season was also a nightmare when they sold out the Atyeo, sang throughout and won.

But it's football and it's supposed to be entertainment. The noise of the crowd is part of that so I have no wish to see it artificially throttled unless we can definitely sell those seats to City fans.

2,000 Wolves fans would have made more than enough noise tonight plus we would have lost revenue and had a bunch of empty seats in the corner of one stand.

We need to up our game, simple as.

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57 minutes ago, BCFC_Mike said:

Don't agree with this at all.

They had the whole of the Atyeo, yes... we filled up three stands, each bigger than the Atyeo. If all three of those stands created an atmosphere, the Wolves fans would have barely been heard. That's a big ask maybe, but to blame the result to some degree on there being too many away fans? Behave. 

But they don't, never have done and never will.

That's the point and where the "marginal gains" argument comes into play.

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6 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Was the atmosphere that bad? Bit of a poor show if we can’t generate a good atmosphere for a top of the table clash at a sold out AG..

Honestly, I understand the point Will is making and he is right, but it isn't simply about the away fans and your question is the one that most resonates.

I thought the atmosphere was terrible once they equalised. There have been a lot of people on here all week saying this would be one game too far, and you could see it in the players most of the game, but unforgivably in us "supporters" for 30 minutes too. We gave it up as soon as they equalised. Barely a song after that.

I'm not sure it would have made a difference as clearly the players were blowing out their arse out on the pitch and our options were utterly limited, but really compared to other games this season, it actually sounded like we as supporters had surrendered. Well before they scored the winner, it wasn't noisy or intimidating.

We're all happy to lap it up when we win and the players are on social media saying "fans were unreal again" even when we know we probably weren't. PLEASE lets take the L this time and move on - the players won't say it, but we gave that one up, our support was largely appalling, we were waiting for them to score.

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There's another, perhaps bigger issue here - a broader issue.

We've given more tickets to away fans than necessary, and the claim that this has benefitted the away team is a fair one. But equally in the past there have been times when we have taken large away followings to games - far more than the away team was duty-bound to give us. Coventry, MK Dons and Fulham spring to mind. Last season a number of us expressed frustration that Villa gave us a limited allocation while there were 10,000 empty seats elsewhere in the ground. We often recall great away days with great affection. We were delighted to see Manchester City give us more tickets than strictly necessary, which will mean more of us get to enjoy the experience first hand.

Are we saying we are happy to forgoe our big away days in exchange for reducing the number of away fans at Ashton Gate? Is it fair to expect to have it both ways? Or is it better for football overall for all clubs to offer as many away tickets as they can according to their own demand - which will sometimes work to our benefit, and sometimes work against us? I would say that it's better overall for the game for more people to attend more matches. If all clubs took the attitude of giving as few tickets as possible, all supporters suffer, including us.

Of course, if we were going to sell out the additional Atyeo tickets to home fans that would change things - but we're not quite there yet. Even yesterday tickets were available until just before kick off.

The positioning of the away fans is a different issue however and I completely agree that this is something we should look at. The Atyeo "wall" with its relatively steep rake does offer the away team an awful lot of encouragement.

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9 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 

It's interesting that you're both making a connection between size/quality of support versus results, when i have made no such connection - perhaps you could explain? 

If your point isn’t about results and the impact of support on them, then what is the point you’re making? 

If you think our atmosphere is amazing then I’m guessing you’re in S82? I can assure you that in most other places in the ground it’s awful at times.

At 0-0 you could only hear one set of fans and it wasn’t us. In fact that’s true of all times in the game pretty much other than the immediate aftermath of our goal. 

Maybe the issue to look into here is not how many tickets the away fans get, but how come they can outsing us when they’re outnumbered 5:1? 

Fans absolutely flooding out at 39 mins because they’re so ******* desperate for their pint,  embarrassing. 

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18 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

If your point isn’t about results and the impact of support on them, then what is the point you’re making? 

If you think our atmosphere is amazing then I’m guessing you’re in S82? I can assure you that in most other places in the ground it’s awful at times.

At 0-0 you could only hear one set of fans and it wasn’t us. In fact that’s true of all times in the game pretty much other than the immediate aftermath of our goal. 

Maybe the issue to look into here is not how many tickets the away fans get, but how come they can outsing us when they’re outnumbered 5:1? 

Fans absolutely flooding out at 39 mins because they’re so ******* desperate for their pint,  embarrassing. 

Even in Section 82 there were some guilty of that. It would also help if S82's reaction to the Wolves singing wasn't complete silence, apart from some feeble cries of f off and waving 2 fingers in their general direction.

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17 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

If your point isn’t about results and the impact of support on them, then what is the point you’re making? 

If you think our atmosphere is amazing then I’m guessing you’re in S82? I can assure you that in most other places in the ground it’s awful at times.

At 0-0 you could only hear one set of fans and it wasn’t us. In fact that’s true of all times in the game pretty much other than the immediate aftermath of our goal. 

Maybe the issue to look into here is not how many tickets the away fans get, but how come they can outsing us when they’re outnumbered 5:1? 

Fans absolutely flooding out at 39 mins because they’re so ******* desperate for their pint,  embarrassing. 

I think when you have a stand containing lots of corporate facilities (as well as being the most expensive for normal tickets) it basically becomes a write off for atmosphere.

That’s not unique to us though, it’s the same everywhere even at the biggest clubs.. United, Liverpool, Chelsea. 

I personally think the club are partly to blame - they fiddled around with the location of ‘S82’ in whatever guise they’ve been for years. Always pushed to the worst areas of the ground. This seasons solution is the best since the EE. It’s just a shame the away support are at the opposite end.

Imagine if Liverpool totally rebuilt Anfield or moved elsewhere.. you can’t imagine them moving people around from the Kop before eventually giving them a corner somewhere. The Kop and it’s inhabitants would be properly considered in a rebuild. 

I don’t think our vocal support was really considered. We’ve rightly got plenty of areas for corporate seats, families, disabled people and great seats for those who like to sit and watch. I don’t feel we ever provided much for people who like to stand and sing. I know they’ve talked about safe standing.. but it’s hard to really count that until it happens. Could be years or never. 

The club designed the stadium for revenue - which you’d expect of course - but didn’t seem to think about logistics and flow of the atmosphere. 

 

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9 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

Stick them in the roof of the Lansdown imo, bit like Newcastle do.

If we get promoted, I believe a Premier League rule brought in this season was for away fans to be near/at pitchside to improve their ability to create atmosphere ... all about the broadcast spectacle. 

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39 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I think when you have a stand containing lots of corporate facilities (as well as being the most expensive for normal tickets) it basically becomes a write off for atmosphere.

That’s not unique to us though, it’s the same everywhere even at the biggest clubs.. United, Liverpool, Chelsea. 

I personally think the club are partly to blame - they fiddled around with the location of ‘S82’ in whatever guise they’ve been for years. Always pushed to the worst areas of the ground. This seasons solution is the best since the EE. It’s just a shame the away support are at the opposite end.

Imagine if Liverpool totally rebuilt Anfield or moved elsewhere.. you can’t imagine them moving people around from the Kop before eventually giving them a corner somewhere. The Kop and it’s inhabitants would be properly considered in a rebuild. 

I don’t think our vocal support was really considered. We’ve rightly got plenty of areas for corporate seats, families, disabled people and great seats for those who like to sit and watch. I don’t feel we ever provided much for people who like to stand and sing. I know they’ve talked about safe standing.. but it’s hard to really count that until it happens. Could be years or never. 

The club designed the stadium for revenue - which you’d expect of course - but didn’t seem to think about logistics and flow of the atmosphere. 

 

Great , insightful post with loads of good points PF

You sum it up perfectly - Club Priorities......

Understandable I guess but £££££ are more important than the support dynamics

Guess SL would rightly point out that the £££ are not more important but vital

I really like the Lansdown for view / seating but it would drive me potty feeling separated from any atmosphere

As I’ve said the Dolman is poor and the number of all ages that don’t make a sound all game (Jump to their feet when we score and leap around a bit and then sit down and back to silence :grr:) makes me despair

Sorry , but for the vast majority  there is no reason that they can’t  join in with clapping if not singing ‘ at least once a game 

Each to their own but why some spend out to watch football live , like they are at the cinema ,  totall baffles me (Bet their ones who tell neighbours and friends what ‘ a great atmosphere it was’ !!!!)

What I found a bit depressing yesterday was that fans were far more up for a Carabao Cup tie against the Mighty Man Ure , and were meant to include hundreds if not thousands of plastics and day trippers , there to see Man Ure :gaah:

 

In balance - I was thinking how many grounds are their good atmosphere at in the modern era .

I don’t miss much live foortball on tv and rarely think ‘ Sounds a good atmosphere’

Be interesting what @Olé and the away faithfuls think of how our atmosphere compares with those they visit currently 

 

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An interesting one to ponder

Playing devils advocate

Who’s the better / more valuable supporter of a Club  (And I make clear BOTH are valued)

 

The supporter who has a season ticket , year in year out but never partakes in any vocal support and sits and quietly watches the game 

or

The supporter who , for whatever reason goes 8 / 10 /15 Games a year But comes Home hoarse from vocally supporting the team

:fear:

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16 minutes ago, BobBobSuperBob said:

An interesting one to ponder

Playing devils advocate

Who’s the better / more valuable supporter of a Club  (And I make clear BOTH are valued)

 

The supporter who has a season ticket , year in year out but never partakes in any vocal support and sits and quietly watches the game 

or

The supporter who , for whatever reason goes 8 / 10 /15 Games a year But comes Home hoarse from vocally supporting the team

:fear:

Option 2 for me. Those are the supporters who can actually have an impact on the game. There’s a reason why players tend to celebrate goals infront of S82.

Take Magnússon for example. He loves it that the fans sing his name. Imagine you’re him; a young guy, new country - but you’ve got 1000 fans singing your name. What a buzz it must be. 

In the United game, players were gesturing for S82 to whip up the atmosphere. It clearly has an impact on the players which they appreciate.

The Wolves players were straight over to their boisterous away support to join in the songs. 

For the club though.. obviously they’re going to want fans who buy food from the outlets, buy family season tickets and don’t cause any problems. Given their objectives of maximising off-pitch revenue that’s understandable.

I think Willem II as a club seem to get it right with supporter culture - vocal and passionate fans are really valued there it seems with great entertainment around the ground.

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All good points @Phileas Fogg and @BobBobSuperBob but unfortunately most of the clubs we are competing with to get out of this division are aided massively by parachute payments. 

We are still very much in the infancy of having a fit for purpose stadium that has the capability of generating significant revenue and I don’t think you can really blame the club for tying to max out matchday revenues. If we were in the lower part of the table there’d have been 5k empty seats in the ground. 

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1 minute ago, BRISTOL86 said:

All good points @Phileas Fogg and @BobBobSuperBob but unfortunately most of the clubs we are competing with to get out of this division are aided massively by parachute payments. 

We are still very much in the infancy of having a fit for purpose stadium that has the capability of generating significant revenue and I don’t think you can really blame the club for tying to max out matchday revenues. If we were in the lower part of the table there’d have been 5k empty seats in the ground. 

Yeah you’re right, of course it’s right the club focus on revenue. I just wish they’d given a bit more consideration to atmosphere in the ground. Feels like an afterthought.

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1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

The club designed the stadium for revenue - which you’d expect of course - but didn’t seem to think about logistics and flow of the atmosphere.

Let's drop this idea that there's anyone else to blame other than us as the vocal (or non-vocal) fans.

For years we have been reading that it is impossible to make noise in the Atyeo due to the angle of the roof. In the last two seasons, plenty of visiting teams have shown this to be untrue. Equally, it was nothing to do with the location of S82 because we had the same problem of quiet spells even when S82 stood alongside away fans.

This is one we have to own.

And restricting away tickets because of too much noise is not the answer. It's for us to respond and match the much noisier fans from Wolves, Villa, Leeds, Newcastle, Birmingham, Fleetwood....

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9 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

To those who are quite happy with the club gifting over 4,000 tickets behind the goal  to away teams I wonder if that applies to the Sheffield United game later in the season and also the play-offs?

I rarely agree with you, Kid, but on this one occasion I think you are absolutely 100% spot on.

Why the hell do BCFC allow the entire Atyeo end become a home stand for away teams? We'd have filled the segregated section with POTD ( still getting vital revenue) and not given the away team such a nice homely welcome owning an entire quarter of the stadium.

 

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@BobBobSuperBob in answer to your question, every bit as good - Ashton Gate on a night game compares favourably to a lot of other grounds that we all go to. Lets not get this confused, the discussion about last night is all relative, it's not about AG being worse than anywhere, it's simply about one game last night.

By the standards we have set on an "AG under the lights" night, it both went very flat AND Wolves had the numbers and scope to make a real din. We didn't do ourselves justice. That's not to say it was worse than other grounds. Many other grounds are utterly flat from start to finish - it's natural, away fans will always be louder, the leveller is where they're put, which is why @Kid in the Riot's point still stands and I don't want to take away from that, I just think we were poor.

Incidentally, there aren't many grounds anymore where away fans have the full with of an end AND right at pitch level uninterrupted. From memory only Sheffield United, Reading, Bolton, Burton, Brentford, and Preston. Meanwhile: Sheff Wed (upper tier), Sunderland (upper tier), QPR (upper tier), Millwall (upper tier), Barnsley (upper tier), Hull (corner), Cardiff (corner), Fulham (corner), Forest (corner), Birmingham (corner), Middlesbro (corner), Wolves (side), Norwich (side corner), Ipswich (side corner), Derby (side corner), Leeds (side corner), Villa (side corner). Get in the prem and as we saw last year (Newcastle) or next month (Man City) you're up in the gods.

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24 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Option 2 for me. Those are the supporters who can actually have an impact on the game. There’s a reason why players tend to celebrate goals infront of S82.

Take Magnússon for example. He loves it that the fans sing his name. Imagine you’re him; a young guy, new country - but you’ve got 1000 fans singing your name. What a buzz it must be. 

In the United game, players were gesturing for S82 to whip up the atmosphere. It clearly has an impact on the players which they appreciate.

The Wolves players were straight over to their boisterous away support to join in the songs. 

For the club though.. obviously they’re going to want fans who buy food from the outlets, buy family season tickets and don’t cause any problems. Given their objectives of maximising off-pitch revenue that’s understandable.

I think Willem II as a club seem to get it right with supporter culture - vocal and passionate fans are really valued there it seems with great entertainment around the ground.

FWIW PF 

Im with you:thumbsup:

Your points about players running to Sec 82 and Mags song excellent examples

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22 minutes ago, Xiled said:

Let's drop this idea that there's anyone else to blame other than us as the vocal (or non-vocal) fans.

For years we have been reading that it is impossible to make noise in the Atyeo due to the angle of the roof. In the last two seasons, plenty of visiting teams have shown this to be untrue. Equally, it was nothing to do with the location of S82 because we had the same problem of quiet spells even when S82 stood alongside away fans.

This is one we have to own.

And restricting away tickets because of too much noise is not the answer. It's for us to respond and match the much noisier fans from Wolves, Villa, Leeds, Newcastle, Birmingham, Fleetwood....

Let's not 'drop' the idea. Of course placement and grouping of fans contributes to atmosphere. I feel if the club had properly factored in atmosphere when planning the rebuild things would be far better.

The Atyeo thing people keep saying is flawed. When we had home fans in the Atyeo before the rebuild, it was a real eclectic mix of fans with lots of families. That's not conducive to noise. If you put the EE/S82 group in there with permission to stand and made it unreserved - the noise would've been great. The reason away fans have been able to make noise in there is because it's what away fans do. Per 100 people in an away support, you'll have more people prepared to stand and sing than 100 in the home support. That's not unique to us, just the way it is.

Obviously it's not 'impossible' to make noise in there. I don't think it's the best design for atmosphere, but that's far less important than which groups of fans are in there. Having S82 in there last season was fine, they made noise in there. The problem was the rest of the ground. I think though that S82 are far better this season and improve each year.

I don't necessarily think restricting away tickets is the answer, but the placement is wrong. There's a reason it's rare to see away supporters occupy a whole end behind a goal at most clubs. When they are behind a goal - such as the Anfield Road end at Liverpool or yesterday at Celtic Park - it's shared with home support.

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2 hours ago, ChippenhamRed said:

There's another, perhaps bigger issue here - a broader issue.

We've given more tickets to away fans than necessary, and the claim that this has benefitted the away team is a fair one. But equally in the past there have been times when we have taken large away followings to games - far more than the away team was duty-bound to give us. Coventry, MK Dons and Fulham spring to mind. Last season a number of us expressed frustration that Villa gave us a limited allocation while there were 10,000 empty seats elsewhere in the ground. We often recall great away days with great affection. We were delighted to see Manchester City give us more tickets than strictly necessary, which will mean more of us get to enjoy the experience first hand.

Are we saying we are happy to forgoe our big away days in exchange for reducing the number of away fans at Ashton Gate? Is it fair to expect to have it both ways? Or is it better for football overall for all clubs to offer as many away tickets as they can according to their own demand - which will sometimes work to our benefit, and sometimes work against us? I would say that it's better overall for the game for more people to attend more matches. If all clubs took the attitude of giving as few tickets as possible, all supporters suffer, including us.

Of course, if we were going to sell out the additional Atyeo tickets to home fans that would change things - but we're not quite there yet. Even yesterday tickets were available until just before kick off.

The positioning of the away fans is a different issue however and I completely agree that this is something we should look at. The Atyeo "wall" with its relatively steep rake does offer the away team an awful lot of encouragement.

That's a good point. 

Wolves had the away day of their lives (I had a sneaky look on Mol mix and they're all blubbering with euphoria). 

I too, can recall fantastic away days where we bossed the stadium with a disproportionate allocation. Reading (in 08/09?) was one where I can vividly remember them lamenting the surrender of their stadium. 

The difference, though, was the occasion. There wasn't a great deal hanging in the game. 

Last night was a hugely pivotal moment between the top of the table promotion contenders. 

Im all for big away days and atmospheric football but I'd like to see a slight compromise on nights like these.

2,600 wolves would have been enough wolves. 

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9 minutes ago, Olé said:

@BobBobSuperBob in answer to your question, every bit as good - Ashton Gate on a night game compares favourably to a lot of other grounds that we all go to. Lets not get this confused, the discussion about last night is all relative, it's not about AG being worse than anywhere, it's simply about one game last night.

By the standards we have set on an "AG under the lights" night, it both went very flat AND Wolves had the numbers and scope to make a real din. We didn't do ourselves justice. That's not to say it was worse than other grounds. Many other grounds are utterly flat from start to finish - it's natural, away fans will always be louder, the leveller is where they're put, which is why @Kid in the Riot's point still stands and I don't want to take away from that, I just think we were poor.

Incidentally, there aren't many grounds anymore where away fans have the full with of an end AND right at pitch level uninterrupted. From memory only Sheffield United, Reading, Bolton, Burton, Brentford, and Preston. Meanwhile: Sheff Wed (upper tier), Sunderland (upper tier), QPR (upper tier), Millwall (upper tier), Barnsley (upper tier), Hull (corner), Cardiff (corner), Fulham (corner), Forest (corner), Birmingham (corner), Middlesbro (corner), Wolves (side), Norwich (side corner), Ipswich (side corner), Derby (side corner), Leeds (side corner), Villa (side corner). Get in the prem and as we saw last year (Newcastle) or next month (Man City) you're up in the gods.

Not only that but City are very unlikely to be getting any 4k away allocations given to us should we get to the PL.

The ruling for away allocations of tickets in the PL is: 3,000 tickets or, if the capacity of the home clubs stadium is less than 30,000, such number of tickets as is equal to 10%.

So 3k max. at Old Trafford or the Etihad and 2,600 at West Brom.

City gave Wolves more tickets yesterday than Man.Utd, Liverpool, Arsenal etc. with their huge grounds would normally give each other for a PL game, and more than any of them would give City should we get promoted. 

City gave a ludicrous amount of tickets, in the most visible area behind the goal to a club well known to have vociferous fans, markedly reducing our home advantage, and increasing potential discomfort for City fans outside the ground, for no other reason than a few extra £££££.

Short sighted, plain stupid, and very much contributing to our downfall yesterday imo.

 

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11 hours ago, redcard said:

How they position us along the side of the stadium where we cannot get any away atmosphere going is the reason I never go to Wolves anymore, my choice, horrible club.

I agree dislike the view or atmosphere at Wolves so I haven't been for a couple of seasons. 

I agree with the comments about marginal gains though, I feel if we make the Prem then demand will be such that the Atyeo will need to be 25% open to home sales. 

Also think you can't just blame the away end allocation,  it's up to home fans to match it noise wise. 

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I agree with the OP.  Its about the concentration of loud passion.  I was lower Landsdown for the Leeds game and could only hear their fans for the whole game.  

Similarly we have had the same benefits.  I remember away at Charlton a few years ago we took the entire end and also demolished them on the pitch. And again at West Brom in the cup that year.

So yes we are giving a huge advantage to the away teams with large followings with the current set up

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