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A touch of reality on our signings


Redland

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17 minutes ago, steviestevieneville said:

Where are your facts of twenty to thirty signings ? 

I can't be a***d to list them all here but loook up our 2016 and 2017 squads on line including the loan signings. Many of them are now forgotten. 

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4 minutes ago, Redland said:

I was including loan signings in addition to permanent. 

Either way we're going to have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe we have on the whole recruited really well. Yes we've had the odd Hegeler or O'Neill but not only have we signed in my eyes good players but also young and hungry players which are going to continue to grow.

Also that spine you've mentioned never really included Reid. I thought he was gone at the beginning of this season because he hadn't nailed a regular first team spot for previous seasons but him amongst the other 'spine' players have come on leaps and bounds and that's credit to the LJ and his staff.

 

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3 minutes ago, RedRoss said:

Either way we're going to have to agree to disagree. I strongly believe we have on the whole recruited really well. Yes we've had the odd Hegeler or O'Neill but not only have we signed in my eyes good players but also young and hungry players which are going to continue to grow.

Also that spine you've mentioned never really included Reid. I thought he was gone at the beginning of this season because he hadn't nailed a regular first team spot for previous seasons but him amongst the other 'spine' players have come on leaps and bounds and that's credit to the LJ and his staff.

 

We are both City fans and I hope you are right. We have signed young players and our existing players have matured and improved. I suppose I am just surprised that with all the money spent and after 20 - 30 signings we are still in the main watching the greater part of the League one promotion team.  This is a fact not an opinion. 

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There is still a fairly strong presence from our division one winners team. But what I would say, that only an idiot would not recognise that in someway, LJ has improved them. So to me, that is proof that the way the club wants to be run, is in the whole working. We buy largely young talented players who can improve, not only in ability, but value as well. I would also say a lot of LJ’s signings have been for the future, no matter what price was paid. He has bought into the way this club wants to be run. A strong indicator of his belief in not only his coaching ability, but what is best for BCFC. I would suggest not many managers would of accepted those terms, because they would of wanted ready made players. Something, if the whispers are true, previous managers fell into that category. COYR 

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6 minutes ago, Redland said:

We are both City fans and I hope you are right. We have signed young players and our existing players have matured and improved. I suppose I am just surprised that with all the money spent and after 20 - 30 signings we are still in the main watching the greater part of the League one promotion team.  This is a fact not an opinion. 

Sorry mate because it’s not. He hasn’t made 20-30 signings it’s just a random number . If everyone was fit . Fielding , flint, pack, Smith , Bryan would be in a match day squad that got promoted under cotterill and played in that first season in the championship. Bobby wasn’t part of it and it’s like I said a match day squad . Out of 18 on any given match day 5 are existing from when LJ took over.  By the way , there’s nothing wrong with that they’re all good players but numbers you’ve banded around are wrong. 

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Let's go through them then... 

Tomlin - didn't have the attitude to succeed but we got our money back.. 

Magnússon - is playing regularly and improving week on week

Duric - has injury problems but the best target man I've ever seen play for us and gives us something different up top

Taylor Moore - has been doing well on loan at Cheltenham, certainly one for the future 

Engvall - again one for the future, maybe not worth what we paid for him but hasn't been given the chance yet, can't write him off

Callum O'dowda - was one of our best players till he got injured, improved massively since last season, bargain at £1 mill

Matty Taylor - £300,000 bargain, paid off his fee with the assist v man u, can't really go wrong at that price. 

Hegeler- One of a few transfers that hasn't worked out, obviously a talented footballer but not physical enough to play in the championship, only 300k though so not as though it's a waste of money. 

O'Neil - a free agent with premiership experience, seemed like a good deal at the time, like others though injuries have got the better of him, certainly a good enough footballer

Josh Brownhill - How did we get home on a free? One of the best pieces of business we have done in years

Jamie Paterson - only 500k-750k according to reports, absolute bargain, one of our best players this season

Wright - again only bought for a few hundred thousand, absolute bargain, solid centre back who has filled in excellently at right back

Luke Steele - solid back up keeper, vast experience and showed his class v man united 

Baker - our best defender imo, its no coincidence Flint looks like a premier league player since he joined

Diedhiou - slow start but then burst into life and I reckon he could get us 10 plus goals when he comes back

Pisano - obviously a really god right back but very much injury prone so worry whether he will have a big part to play this year and if we go up, still a very good footballer

Elliasson - still young and from the glimpses we've seen of him he looks like a very talented footballer, exciting prospect 

So overall I'd say hegeler and O'Neil are the two who haven't been what we thought they would be and in O'Neils case that's due to injury. We've solingen a lot of young players as well remember who may well be in our team in a few years

Honestly got no idea what the op is on about.... 

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1 hour ago, steviestevieneville said:

O’dowda is injured so is famara and djuric and Pisano . Blows your argument out the water. Mags is currently playing and Bailey wright is skipper . Nathan baker and pato also very much part of the first team regulars 

Brownhill?

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10 minutes ago, JBFC II said:

Let's go through them then... 

Tomlin - didn't have the attitude to succeed but we got our money back.. 

Magnússon - is playing regularly and improving week on week

Duric - has injury problems but the best target man I've ever seen play for us and gives us something different up top

Taylor Moore - has been doing well on loan at Cheltenham, certainly one for the future 

Engvall - again one for the future, maybe not worth what we paid for him but hasn't been given the chance yet, can't write him off

Callum O'dowda - was one of our best players till he got injured, improved massively since last season, bargain at £1 mill

Matty Taylor - £300,000 bargain, paid off his fee with the assist v man u, can't really go wrong at that price. 

Hegeler- One of a few transfers that hasn't worked out, obviously a talented footballer but not physical enough to play in the championship, only 300k though so not as though it's a waste of money. 

O'Neil - a free agent with premiership experience, seemed like a good deal at the time, like others though injuries have got the better of him, certainly a good enough footballer

Josh Brownhill - How did we get home on a free? One of the best pieces of business we have done in years

Jamie Paterson - only 500k-750k according to reports, absolute bargain, one of our best players this season

Wright - again only bought for a few hundred thousand, absolute bargain, solid centre back who has filled in excellently at right back

Luke Steele - solid back up keeper, vast experience and showed his class v man united 

Baker - our best defender imo, its no coincidence Flint looks like a premier league player since he joined

Diedhiou - slow start but then burst into life and I reckon he could get us 10 plus goals when he comes back

Pisano - obviously a really god right back but very much injury prone so worry whether he will have a big part to play this year and if we go up, still a very good footballer

Elliasson - still young and from the glimpses we've seen of him he looks like a very talented footballer, exciting prospect 

So overall I'd say hegeler and O'Neil are the two who haven't been what we thought they would be and in O'Neils case that's due to injury. We've solingen a lot of young players as well remember who may well be in our team in a few years

Honestly got no idea what the op is on about.... 

Good post & reasoning behind it as well! We have been unlucky with O’Neil, but I will say he could become invaluable the nearer the end of the season gets & the higher up the table we are. COYR 

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2 hours ago, Redland said:

I don't know exactly how many signings LJ has made since he was appointed but it must be 20 -30. 

Surprising then that that the spine of our team is still very much the league one promotion team, namely Fielding, Bryan, Flint, Reid, Pack and Smith. We only avoided relegation last season when LJ stopped experimenting and reverted to these players. 

Therefore only one in five of recent signings gets a regular place in the first team.  

Just saying. 

This, in my opinion - is a bad opinion.

It piqued my interest however, and I have looked into the signings made by the managers since we were relegated in 12/13.

In that time we've had signings by Sean O'Driscoll, Steve Cotterill (a few by Pemberton as caretaker) and Johnson.

Of the ones you mention explicitly -

Fielding, Flint and Pack were all O'Driscoll signings. Smith was a Cotterill signing. Bryan and Reid from the academy.

It's important to note how all of the ones you mention are perfect examples of the quintessential "Bristol City player".

The ones who aren't academy players all joined at ages where they were young enough to improve (Flint 24, Pack 22, Fielding 25, Smith 23). 

They're all worth more than when they arrived.

They all have the right 'DNA'.

Whether by accident or design, this group of players are exactly what we look for right now - which is probably why they're still here and have grown with the club as our transfer philosophy has developed.

I suppose this original post by @Redland was probably a bit of a sad attempt to discredit LJ. I imagine the narrative he is trying to convey is that Steve Cotterill made more effective signings than Lee Johnson.

Perhaps the more interesting narrative is that three of the players he mentions were actually purchased by Mr O'Driscoll..

This was at a time when we were big on the '5 pillars' which is the devolved version of our current recruitment and in a period of austerity..

Edit - I just realised this takes me up to 10,000 posts! I really need to get a life :laugh:

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10 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

This, in my opinion - is a bad opinion.

It piqued my interest however, and I have looked into the signings made by the managers since we were relegated in 12/13.

In that time we've had signings by Sean O'Driscoll, Steve Cotterill (a few by Pemberton as caretaker) and Johnson.

Of the ones you mention explicitly -

Fielding, Flint and Pack were all O'Driscoll signings. Smith was a Cotterill signing. Bryan and Reid from the academy.

It's important to note how all of the ones you mention are perfect examples of the quintessential "Bristol City player".

The ones who aren't academy players all joined at ages where they were young enough to improve (Flint - 24, Pack 22, Fielding 25, Smith 23). 

They're all worth more than when they arrived.

They all have the right 'DNA'.

Whether by accident or design, this group of players are exactly what we look for right now - which is probably why they're still here and have grown with the club as our transfer philosophy has developed.

I suppose this original post by @Redland was probably a bit of a sad attempt to discredit LJ. I imagine the narrative he is trying to convey is that Steve Cotterill made more effective signings than Lee Johnson.

Perhaps the more interesting narrative is that three of the players he mentions were actually purchased by Mr O'Driscoll..

This was at a time when we were big on the '5 pillars' which is the devolved version of our current recruitment and in a period of austerity..

Edit - I just realised this takes me up to 10,000 posts! I really need to get a life :laugh:

No I am not suggesting Cotts made better signings ( though Kodja wasn't bad business). I was simply pointing out that despite all our signings we are still playing the bulk of the old league one team, minus Ayling, Cunningham, Freeman, Wilbs etc. In pointing this out I wasn't expecting the `Spanish Inquisition. 

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Just now, Redland said:

No I am not suggesting Cotts made better signings ( though Kodja wasn't bad business). I was simply pointing out that despite all our signings we are still playing the bulk of the old league one team, minus Ayling, Cunningham, Freeman, Wilbs etc. In pointing this out I wasn't expecting the `Spanish Inquisition. 

What does that say though? The players have improved. What's the problem there?

Imagine if we get to the Premier League and in 4 years players like O'Dowda, Brownhill, Wright and Diedhiou are solid prem players, are we supposed to be critiquing that too?

I don't really understand the problem. The players you mention were bought in players at an age where they can improve. The ones you mention are either at or a couple of years away from their peaks. It's a natural progression.

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Funny thing really, if your focus is on signing players with a view to developing them for the future, looking at short-term benefits is pretty pointless. Personally I think we have spent carefully and very wisely, and put the club on a sound long-term footing. Only thing I disagree with on this thread is Elliason, not writing him off, but I've seen nothing to date to feel optimistic about, however the fact that LJ clearly rates him suggests there may be something in him.

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2 hours ago, Redland said:

I don't know exactly how many signings LJ has made since he was appointed but it must be 20 -30. 

Surprising then that that the spine of our team is still very much the league one promotion team, namely Fielding, Bryan, Flint, Reid, Pack and Smith. We only avoided relegation last season when LJ stopped experimenting and reverted to these players. 

Therefore only one in five of recent signings gets a regular place in the first team.  

Just saying. 

You make a very valid point,my friend...well done in attracting the serial 'rubbush emoji posters,most of whom are exactly as I guessed they'd be!..

How very dare you attempt to deliver balance.

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3 minutes ago, Redland said:

Perhaps if I had entitled this thread "credit to our promotion team" and explained that six of them have kept their places in the face of competition from transfer activity  it would have received a more positive reaction. 

Or, credit to LJ for getting rid of literally the rest of the entire squad. Bobby made 2 sub appearances that year, so aside from Pack (22) starts, and Flint, Bryan, our Frankie, and Korey, none of the squad are still here. Credit to LJ for seeing their talent, and credit to those players for improving immensely and stepping up 

http://www.soccerbase.com/teams/team.sd?team_id=376&teamTabs=stats

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9 minutes ago, Redland said:

Perhaps if I had entitled this thread "credit to our promotion team" and explained that six of them have kept their places in the face of competition from transfer activity  it would have received a more positive reaction. 

In that case I think the way you worded it, if your intended meaning was as sincere as you've put it above, was wrong.

2 hours ago, Redland said:

I don't know exactly how many signings LJ has made since he was appointed but it must be 20 -30. 

Surprising then that that the spine of our team is still very much the league one promotion team, namely Fielding, Bryan, Flint, Reid, Pack and Smith. We only avoided relegation last season when LJ stopped experimenting and reverted to these players. 

Therefore only one in five of recent signings gets a regular place in the first team.  

Just saying. 

This is your original post which just reads like an anti-LJ thing really. It even talks about LJ 'stopping experimenting' being the only way we weren't relegated! 

The focus was Johnson - not the players who've been here years.

 

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2 hours ago, Redland said:

Doesn't blow my argument out of the water at all. Obviously we have 5 other players in the team but the majority are still the league one promotion team. With 20 -30 new signings I would have expected more changes. 

We are 3rd in the championship. Your argument is completely flawed - for a start it implies League One promotion was all those players were capable of. Really we should see how far they can fly first - why replace a player who next year could be a 'a championship promoted player'. 

Secondly we have half a side of LJ players out due to injury. The other signings have improved our squad to the point that LJ could deal with a massive injury crises and rotate and in doing so making us no weaker and gets us to a semi final, and to say again 3rd. That's some very good business... very, very good business. 

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20 minutes ago, Redland said:

No I am not suggesting Cotts made better signings ( though Kodja wasn't bad business). I was simply pointing out that despite all our signings we are still playing the bulk of the old league one team, minus Ayling, Cunningham, Freeman, Wilbs etc. In pointing this out I wasn't expecting the `Spanish Inquisition. 

You undermined any case you might have had by claiming up to 30 signings then refusing to corroborate. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

The fact is that LJ assessed the squad he inherited, decided which ones he wanted to keep then set about recruiting on the basis of the club's strategy. He said it would take 3 windows and was proved right.

Recruitment in football is notoriously risky. If you achieve a 50% success rate you're doing ok. I'd suggest we have exceeded that, given that we were recruiting for a squad not just the first 11, while looking to develop players for the long term, having been guilty of short termism in the past.

I'm not sure what there is to criticise or how we are being unrealistic unless you're suggesting LJ should have got rid of all the players he inherited, which doesn't seem to be your point.

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7 minutes ago, Wanderingred said:

@Thatch35, have you got any comments or are you just going to hide behind making rubbish and confused reactions?

I don't really know what's going on with Thatch.

With 'no recent activity to show' it appears he has been confined to some sort of OTIB purgatory where he can log in but cannot post!

As a result, he can now only express his hatred of Johnson from a choice of 7 OTIB reactions!

image.thumb.png.122b06fce6d2f80eff9d4beb06a3d7c2.png

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2 hours ago, petehinton said:

He’s transformed Reid & Bryan. They’ve been as good as two new signings. 

Same for Fielding.

Paterson has been one of the most effective players in the whole of England. Signed for peanuts.

Brownhill is one of the best players we’ve had in years.  Signed for peanuts.

Baker is one of the best signings we’ve made in the last 10 years. 

Cared enough about the club to offer us his best player at Oldham. 

You missed out those bits...

Are those the ones MU gave us for Ralph Milne? they must be passed there best now.

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1 hour ago, reformed_red said:

The thing is when LJ came in we only had about 14.6 actual players, so he kind of had to sign a fair few anyway :facepalm:

 

If there is one thing since both LJ and MA came in that can't be criticised, it's player recruitment. 

For all the good things done I don’t think that’s correct

Id suggest ‘mixed’ , albeit I’d suggest better in the last 12 months (Possibly aided by change of recruitment staff / methods ?)

 

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