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What is the realistic future for City? (Merged)


reddogkev

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Throughout my lifetime we've always had the potential to become a decent top flight club, but only achieved first division status for a fleeting period at the end of the 70s, with the ignominious decline that followed dashing any chance of us being able to capitalise on that brief sucess.

Our current momentum has, I think, come a season or so earlier than SL expected when appointing LJ to see though his "grand plan" and this division is so competitive that is hard to call the outcome of this season. It is not impossible that we could achieve promotion this season, and if so then, much as though I would love to see us go on to establish ourselves and forge our way to the upper reaches of the prem, I don't see SL throwing everything bar the kitchen sink at it for a "shit or bust" approach , but would expect him to stay pretty true to his long term plan, even if this might see us becoming a bit of a Burnley type yo-yo club for a few seasons.

More importantly is what will happen if we don't secure promotion this time around. If this is the case, then I expect us to lose some of our better players, but with the profit this would realise I would hope &  expect the plan to be continued by re-investing the sale monies in a further batch of up and coming young players, but would expect the standard to be higher than we could have managed in the past. Even now, signing a player like Walsh is a step up from some of the unknown young players we have brought in previously - a player coming through the youth system at a decent premier league club and apparently on the verge of first team recognition. With the club's DNA test and if we maintain our success, I would be pretty confident that players off that standard will be coming to Ashton Gste in the future, even if it is as replacements when our established players move on to bigger and better things.

I am confident we are progressing on the right lines if we not only want to see success, but want it to be sustained and not just at this level. I also like the idea that while the  profligacy fuelled by Sky's tv money seems to continue apace, we are ploughing our own furrow and are being increasingly recognised for doing things "the right way". 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Throughout my lifetime we've always had the potential to become a decent top flight club, but only achieved first division status for a fleeting period at the end of the 70s, with the ignominious decline that followed dashing any chance of us being able to capitalise on that brief sucess.

Our current momentum has, I think, come a season or so earlier than SL expected when appointing LJ to see though his "grand plan" and this division is so competitive that is hard to call the outcome of this season. It is not impossible that we could achieve promotion this season, and if so then, much as though I would love to see us go on to establish ourselves and forge our way to the upper reaches of the prem, I don't see SL throwing everything bar the kitchen sink at it for a "shit or bust" approach , but would expect him to stay pretty true to his long term plan, even if this might see us becoming a bit of a Burnley type yo-yo club for a few seasons.

More importantly is what will happen if we don't secure promotion this time around. If this is the case, then I expect us to lose some of our better players, but with the profit this would realise I would hope &  expect the plan to be continued by re-investing the sale monies in a further batch of up and coming young players, but would expect the standard to be higher than we could have managed in the past. Even now, signing a player like Walsh is a step up from some of the unknown young players we have brought in previously - a player coming through the youth system at a decent premier league club and apparently on the verge of first team recognition. With the club's DNA test and if we maintain our success, I would be pretty confident that players off that standard will be coming to Ashton Gste in the future, even if it is as replacements when our established players move on to bigger and better things.

I am confident we are progressing on the right lines if we not only want to see success, but want it to be sustained and not just at this level. I also like the idea that while the  proflicacy fuelled by Sky's tv money seems to continue apace, we are ploughing our own furrow and are being increasingly recognised for doing things "the right way". 

 

 

 

I couldn`t have put it better myself.:clap:

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8 minutes ago, wendyredredrobin said:

I think that we will need to consolidate next season.  I certainly don't think we can win the premier league at our first attempt. A top 6 place would be very nice though.

....but should we aim for a champions league spot or just got for the Europa League?

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I love what is happening at the Club at the moment. I don't want it to change. The whole philosophy and way we play football. It's so good...that the football world is taking notice. We are getting huge compliments about everything we are doing. We are getting so much exposure in the press.

I'd be happy we kept doing this for a very long time.

The biggest worry, is if you go up to the Prem, so many teams set up to not lose, rather than going for it and keeping to their ethos.

Fans become bored...pressure mounts to win. It all becomes very bland and predictable.

Look what's happened at Stoke, Swansea and WBA recently.

Players come in...wages are astronomical... pressure mounts to stay up at all costs.

I couldn't think of anything worse than playing bland football every week, and trying to finish halfway in the Prem.

It's going to be an interesting second half to the season. Who comes in, who leaves ( if any ), whether the two Manchester games have a negative effect on the league.

If we continue to play attractive football, finish top 6 to 10, see our injured players come back and perform well, youngsters continue to be given chances to play and develop, new signings like Walsh become new hero's, fans and club still feeling as one....memories of a great Cup run and giant killing...some wonderful attractive expansive football...then I'd be more than happy.

If we were to go up, I'd have more worries than none. However...it's what we are trying to achieve. So a catch 22.

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1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

Good point, and with the development of the club and the forward-thinking nature of City at the moment, like you said - progressive outlook - it's all very different to what we've seen in the past.

Who takes most of the credit for all of this?  Is it the long-term strategy of SL starting to reap rewards?

See your location is Bournemouth, always wondered how the fans cope with such a small stadium - it must drive them bonkers.  Do they tend to have any interest in what City are up to?

 

Think that MA should take a fair amount of credit, along with SL and other advisors to him who I can't name but imagine are working in / around the club.

The Bournemouth fans I know take an interest in City, primarily because I'm always banging on about us! 

There are a LOT of bandwagoners down here, which drives the long term (IMO true) fans mad. I've been down here 9 years now and some people I know have literally 'swapped' from suppprting other Prem clubs. I know that will always happen to an extent, but Bournemouth had such a small fan base that it's amplified. One of my pals who is a long term ST holder is worried their new stadium will be WAY too big (25k is the plan I believe). Too big in the Prem and WAY too big if they go down.

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Much bigger clubs than us have found themselves in L1 over the last couple of decades so no, we’re not too big for L1 but we would be a larger fish in that particular pond. I’ll be over the moon if we don’t see that division for many many years but in the Championship you’re only one bad season away.

With our infrastructure, crowds and owners wealth we should at least challenge in the top half of the Championship but it’s not always that straight forward. This season has shown so far that we are capable. Maybe an exciting couple of years ahead, fingers crossed.

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2 hours ago, City1984 said:

What is the realistic future for City?

World domination. 

Too right exactly this and why end there......I have been watching City for nearly 50 years and been there along with others when they passed a bucket around the East end to pay the telephone bill, I remember things were so bad i thought we were going to lose are home to that crap north of the river (never forgiven for that). I have always wanted the best for Bristol city and compete at the highest level. Back in the seventies when we got promoted to Division 1 and Playing Liverpool and Spurs they were great days and want my children and Grandchildren to have those feelings I had back then. My dream is to get into the premiership and win games, and eventually play in Europe...Why not Forest and Vile have and it is top of my bucket list....If it don't happen this year then maybe next year or the year after that but it will happen one day and hope i'm about to enjoy the rollercoaster  ride along with Steve Lansdown who deserves it more than most.

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2 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Agree with @Up The City!and @Phileas Fogg about our plausible trajectory top 10 PL over time, maybe...

The thing about too big for League One. Can't agree with that at all. In the sense that bigger clubs- both historic and current- than us have slipped down there and will do so in the future. Championship is full of medium and big clubs, would just take a bad start one year, some injuries,maybe a key player or 2 leaving.

Momentum in football and sport is really important and upwards momentum can really propel you forward...

However, on the flip side downward momentum can likewse drag you down and be really hard to stop.

Perspective... 2011 May we were lower midtable under Millen. (Was it 15th that year)? 2 and half years on, bottom 3 League one under O'Driscoll.

I was answering the OP's question really but I suppose the question I was really answering was have we outgrown League 1 which I think we have.

I don't really like the 'big' club debate. It's boring and pointless. You can't be too 'big' for any division. I think you can outgrow divisions though which I believe we have.

Of course I'm aware of 2011, but we really were a different club then. We paid above our means, the infrastructure, scouting and academy wasn't nearly what it is now. We've evolved and aren't solely reliant on Lansdown paying off our debts anymore.

I'm pretty patient and try to be objective but I really believe we are a future Premier League club and it's a question of when that happens rather than if.

 

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

I love what is happening at the Club at the moment. I don't want it to change. The whole philosophy and way we play football. It's so good...that the football world is taking notice. We are getting huge compliments about everything we are doing. We are getting so much exposure in the press.

I'd be happy we kept doing this for a very long time.

The biggest worry, is if you go up to the Prem, so many teams set up to not lose, rather than going for it and keeping to their ethos.

Fans become bored...pressure mounts to win. It all becomes very bland and predictable.

Look what's happened at Stoke, Swansea and WBA recently.

Players come in...wages are astronomical... pressure mounts to stay up at all costs.

I couldn't think of anything worse than playing bland football every week, and trying to finish halfway in the Prem.

It's going to be an interesting second half to the season. Who comes in, who leaves ( if any ), whether the two Manchester games have a negative effect on the league.

If we continue to play attractive football, finish top 6 to 10, see our injured players come back and perform well, youngsters continue to be given chances to play and develop, new signings like Walsh become new hero's, fans and club still feeling as one....memories of a great Cup run and giant killing...some wonderful attractive expansive football...then I'd be more than happy.

If we were to go up, I'd have more worries than none. However...it's what we are trying to achieve. So a catch 22.

I hear you mate but we haven't been in the top flight in what over 30 years now? Its burden that needs to be lifted from this Club this City and this whole South West region once and for all IMO..i dont crave the Prem, actually far from it and i agree wholeheartedly with what you say.. but to finally do it would get it out the way so to speak  

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1 hour ago, spudski said:

I love what is happening at the Club at the moment. I don't want it to change. The whole philosophy and way we play football. It's so good...that the football world is taking notice. We are getting huge compliments about everything we are doing. We are getting so much exposure in the press.

I'd be happy we kept doing this for a very long time.

The biggest worry, is if you go up to the Prem, so many teams set up to not lose, rather than going for it and keeping to their ethos.

Fans become bored...pressure mounts to win. It all becomes very bland and predictable.

Look what's happened at Stoke, Swansea and WBA recently.

Players come in...wages are astronomical... pressure mounts to stay up at all costs.

I couldn't think of anything worse than playing bland football every week, and trying to finish halfway in the Prem.

It's going to be an interesting second half to the season. Who comes in, who leaves ( if any ), whether the two Manchester games have a negative effect on the league.

If we continue to play attractive football, finish top 6 to 10, see our injured players come back and perform well, youngsters continue to be given chances to play and develop, new signings like Walsh become new hero's, fans and club still feeling as one....memories of a great Cup run and giant killing...some wonderful attractive expansive football...then I'd be more than happy.

If we were to go up, I'd have more worries than none. However...it's what we are trying to achieve. So a catch 22.

Actually thinking a little more about this...for this season, I'd actually prefer winning the League Cup final than getting promotion.

If we won that and ended up playing in Europe...I'd much prefer that for a season than going up.

European nights home and abroad...and imagine the memories of beating all those big prem teams in winning the League Cup final.

Think I maybe in the minority though.

 

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25 minutes ago, kevthered said:

Too right exactly this and why end there......I have been watching City for nearly 50 years and been there along with others when they passed a bucket around the East end to pay the telephone bill, I remember things were so bad i thought we were going to lose are home to that crap north of the river (never forgiven for that). I have always wanted the best for Bristol city and compete at the highest level. Back in the seventies when we got promoted to Division 1 and Playing Liverpool and Spurs they were great days and want my children and Grandchildren to have those feelings I had back then. My dream is to get into the premiership and win games, and eventually play in Europe...Why not Forest and Vile have and it is top of my bucket list....If it don't happen this year then maybe next year or the year after that but it will happen one day and hope i'm about to enjoy the rollercoaster  ride along with Steve Lansdown who deserves it more than most.

Been on the same journey as you kevthered and sampled the highs and too many lies over the last 40+ years. Our time is now and the prize is within touching distance again. Everything about our club is right just now and sincerely hope that those days of hosting top flight clubs are witnessed again at BS3. 

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10 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I was answering the OP's question really but I suppose the question I was really answering was have we outgrown League 1 which I think we have.

I don't really like the 'big' club debate. It's boring and pointless. You can't be too 'big' for any division. I think you can outgrow divisions though which I believe we have.

Of course I'm aware of 2011, but we really were a different club then. We paid above our means, the infrastructure, scouting and academy wasn't nearly what it is now. We've evolved and aren't solely reliant on Lansdown paying off our debts anymore.

I'm pretty patient and try to be objective but I really believe we are a future Premier League club and it's a question of when that happens rather than if.

 

Oh I agree we're bigger than League One. Clearly.

My point is though that clubs with the infrastructure etc can struggle in this league. A bad start in a year and relegation could again become possible. On paper it shouldn't but look at Sunderland and Birmingham.

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25 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Oh I agree we're bigger than League One. Clearly.

My point is though that clubs with the infrastructure etc can struggle in this league. A bad start in a year and relegation could again become possible. On paper it shouldn't but look at Sunderland and Birmingham.

Well yes of course, but they’re clubs where the rot has set in and they need a reset. A very similar situation to us upon league 1 relegation.

Its the infrastructure and set up which we’ve improved this time around as a promoted side rather than a relegated premier league side like the aforementioned.

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13 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

Well yes of course, but they’re clubs where the rot has set in and they need a reset. A very similar situation to us upon league 1 relegation.

Its the infrastructure and set up which we’ve improved this time around as a promoted side rather than a relegated premier league side like the aforementioned.

We'll agree to disagree on this I think.

Absolutely our infrastructure is light years ahead of where it was say 10 years ago...but lots of cluhe at this level have a strong infrastructure, off-field revenue, and similar..

We are now on an upward trajectory whereas those sides are on the slide- both badly mismanaged too I might add, as clubs over a while.

However Rowett had Birmingham 7th right near playoffs when sacked Dec 2016...now well.

@spudski is usually pretty big on this..puts it well I feel. Often has said it, made the point that we are now, have now been catching up gaining ground on our many competitors.

Too big? No way, things in sport can change in an instant. A year is a long, long time in sport.

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6 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We'll agree to disagree on this I think.

Absolutely our infrastructure is light years ahead of where it was say 10 years ago...but lots of cluhe at this level have a strong infrastructure, off-field revenue, and similar..

We are now on an upward trajectory whereas those sides are on the slide- both badly mismanaged too I might add, as clubs over a while.

However Rowett had Birmingham 7th right near playoffs when sacked Dec 2016...now well.

@spudski is usually pretty big on this..puts it well I feel. Often has said it, made the point that we are now, have now been catching up gaining ground on our many competitors.

Too big? No way, things in sport can change in an instant. A year is a long, long time in sport.

I don't really see where we're disagreeing - we both agree you can't be too 'big' for a division.

I think it's difficult to compare us to clubs like Birmingham and Sunderland who most recently were relegated to this division rather than us who were promoted to it. The rot has been present at those former Prem clubs for a while whereas we've been relegated, reset and came back stronger.

Birmingham and Rowett isn't the best example because they've changed their gameplan several times - epitomised by having Redknapp there. I think they key difference is us having a clear long term objective and approach to get there. Birmingham, with their foreign ownership, seem to flounder between one disaster to the next.

 

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4 hours ago, nickolas said:

If you built a huge double tier on the atyeo we could probably jump to 33000/35000 i reckon but surely no need for that unless we hit Prem and stay there for 2-3 years to see if its warranted. 

SL is probably going to be spending large amounts of £ around the ground in the next few years so lets see how the on pitch results go. 

In a small way i kindof dont want PL. 

Saturday 3pm is what its about for me, not 1230, 1730 saturday, 1400 or 1600 sundays. 

How many games have we played recently at Saturday 3pm..?

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1 minute ago, nickolas said:

A lot more than we would in the PL!

Isn’t that a bit of a myth? How many games do the likes of West Brom, Watford, Huddersfield play at odd times, compared to how many we’ve had changed this season.. ? 

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Going off on a slight tangent....the Premier League....where most of us want to get to.

I wonder what is going to happen to the big 6 (Manchester x2, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea and Spurs).  With only 4 Champions League Spots, it was easy for the previous big 4 (pre-Man City money, pre-Spurs emergence) to dominate and it was a closed shop....and boring.

Of course teams in the Europa League have a chance to gain the 5th slot, but I think Utd were a bit fortunate last season.  

Are Arsenal gonna be the big losers this season?

If a couple of the big 6, miss out on Champions League for a couple of seasons, do they start to slip away, and we go back to a Big 4 again.

 

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36 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

We'll agree to disagree on this I think.

Absolutely our infrastructure is light years ahead of where it was say 10 years ago...but lots of cluhe at this level have a strong infrastructure, off-field revenue, and similar..

We are now on an upward trajectory whereas those sides are on the slide- both badly mismanaged too I might add, as clubs over a while.

However Rowett had Birmingham 7th right near playoffs when sacked Dec 2016...now well.

@spudski is usually pretty big on this..puts it well I feel. Often has said it, made the point that we are now, have now been catching up gaining ground on our many competitors.

Too big? No way, things in sport can change in an instant. A year is a long, long time in sport.

 

33 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I don't really see where we're disagreeing - we both agree you can't be too 'big' for a division.

I think it's difficult to compare us to clubs like Birmingham and Sunderland who most recently were relegated to this division rather than us who were promoted to it. The rot has been present at those former Prem clubs for a while whereas we've been relegated, reset and came back stronger.

Birmingham and Rowett isn't the best example because they've changed their gameplan several times - epitomised by having Redknapp there. I think they key difference is us having a clear long term objective and approach to get there. Birmingham, with their foreign ownership, seem to flounder between one disaster to the next.

 

Whilst playing catch up with 'Infrastructure'...it doesn't make any difference unless you have the right people in place and all working as one.

So many clubs have the infrastructure but neglect the type of personnel.

May fans laughed at MA using the word 'DNA'...but it imo, has been the most important part of our achievements this season.

From the coaching staff, to the players to the Board and owner. All working together as one. All 'bad eggs' gotten rid of.

Nobody moaning...everyone happy to be on the journey.

I know when scouting, that a players talent, is just part of the bigger picture. Scouts are asked to find out about the person, the family, and problems etc. I know they have turned down players, although talented, that didn't fit as people.

Same can be said of coaching staff as well.

Burnley are a great example of putting the two together.

 

 

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6 minutes ago, spudski said:

 

Whilst playing catch up with 'Infrastructure'...it doesn't make any difference unless you have the right people in place and all working as one.

So many clubs have the infrastructure but neglect the type of personnel.

May fans laughed at MA using the word 'DNA'...but it imo, has been the most important part of our achievements this season.

From the coaching staff, to the players to the Board and owner. All working together as one. All 'bad eggs' gotten rid of.

Nobody moaning...everyone happy to be on the journey.

I know when scouting, that a players talent, is just part of the bigger picture. Scouts are asked to find out about the person, the family, and problems etc. I know they have turned down players, although talented, that didn't fit as people.

Same can be said of coaching staff as well.

Burnley are a great example of putting the two together.

So many of the things that have been heavily derided and criticised on here are the very factors that have got us to where we are now.

MA and his cliched management speak, and especially his comments about bringing in people with the right DA, came in for a lot of ridicule on here. Likewise LJ's appointment was more than criticised on this forum , and especially with retrospect a year or so ago. Fans wanting people like Warnock and that LJ was only appointed because he was SL's mate. SL himself has come in for his fair share of criticism. Going  back a way, I think Steve could be fairly and properly criticised for quite a few decisions and for not having football people in to make footballing decisions 

 SL has admitted that he made mistakes but when he first pulled together the "5 pillars" that was really welcomed with open arms by many City fans, despite the fact hat it represented the first step in SL recognising his mistakes, that he couldn't and wouldn't want to keep repeating those mistakes and that just chuckng money at the club was not the way to achieve any sort of long term improvement and success.

The biggest issue has been time. Despite it being pretty clear that what SL put together was a long term plan, most of the criticism - whether it be manager/coach appointments, player recruitment or most crucially results ( a year ago) - was based on wanting al the change to happen almost immediately. 

LJ himself said that he needed 3 transfer windows to get where he wanted the team to be, and look where we are after those 3 windows. Tomlin and Pembo's' departure were seen by critics as being a damning reflection on LJ's management, but with hindsight it now seems fairly clear hat they were rather endorsement of LJ's management.

The biggest factor in all of this is SL. He had the balls to firstly openly admit that he had made mistakes. Secondly recognising that the club could not continue as it had been he put together a plan by which the club could not only survive, but flourish and that it could do so with or without his wealth and within the new financial rules. He then worked at putting a team of people together that would sign up to the plan and see it through to fruition and then had the balls to stick to his guns in the face of massive fan feeling when results on the pitch threatened to derail the whole excercise in it's infancy.

This club is moving a long way from the traditional neanderthal way many clubs run, i.e. wealthy owner with deep pockets brings in well known/character/top ex-player manager who spends huge amounts of money on well known players because that is what fans can relate to.  Th problem with this is that when it goes pear shaped and the manager gets the chop the excercise starts all over again with the next well known/character/top ex-player manager to bring about an immediate change in fortunes - usually achieved by spending even more of the owners money on more top players and so the cycle continues.

Hopefully ( and thankfully) we are now at a point where most fans can see the benefits of SL's long term plan because we are seeing success on the pitch and young players coming through whether from our own youth ranks or from the enlightened transfer policy. The acid test will be if and when we have a dip in form and results and are not riding high. That is the time when fans will need to have faith in the system continuing to work , as will be the case when one of our better players leaves but will not necessarily be replaced by the club going out and paying a massive fee for a like for like replacement.

Sorry Spud, I only meant to add a comment to your post but it went on a bit more than planned. However, it is a very long time since I have felt so positive about the club, and I got carried away a bit. 

 

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4 minutes ago, downendcity said:

So many of the things that have been heavily derided and criticised on here are the very factors that have got us to where we are now.

MA and his cliched management speak, and especially his comments about bringing in people with the right DA, came in for a lot of ridicule on here. Likewise LJ's appointment was more than criticised on this forum , and especially with retrospect a year or so ago. Fans wanting people like Warnock and that LJ was only appointed because he was SL's mate. SL himself has come in for his fair share of criticism. Going  back a way, I think Steve could be fairly and properly criticised for quite a few decisions and for not having football people in to make footballing decisions 

 SL has admitted that he made mistakes but when he first pulled together the "5 pillars" that was really welcomed with open arms by many City fans, despite the fact hat it represented the first step in SL recognising his mistakes, that he couldn't and wouldn't want to keep repeating those mistakes and that just chuckng money at the club was not the way to achieve any sort of long term improvement and success.

The biggest issue has been time. Despite it being pretty clear that what SL put together was a long term plan, most of the criticism - whether it be manager/coach appointments, player recruitment or most crucially results ( a year ago) - was based on wanting al the change to happen almost immediately. 

LJ himself said that he needed 3 transfer windows to get where he wanted the team to be, and look where we are after those 3 windows. Tomlin and Pembo's' departure were seen by critics as being a damning reflection on LJ's management, but with hindsight it now seems fairly clear hat they were rather endorsement of LJ's management.

The biggest factor in all of this is SL. He had the balls to firstly openly admit that he had made mistakes. Secondly recognising that the club could not continue as it had been he put together a plan by which the club could not only survive, but flourish and that it could do so with or without his wealth and within the new financial rules. He then worked at putting a team of people together that would sign up to the plan and see it through to fruition and then had the balls to stick to his guns in the face of massive fan feeling when results on the pitch threatened to derail the whole excercise in it's infancy.

This club is moving a long way from the traditional neanderthal way many clubs run, i.e. wealthy owner with deep pockets brings in well known/character/top ex-player manager who spends huge amounts of money on well known players because that is what fans can relate to.  Th problem with this is that when it goes pear shaped and the manager gets the chop the excercise starts all over again with the next well known/character/top ex-player manager to bring about an immediate change in fortunes - usually achieved by spending even more of the owners money on more top players and so the cycle continues.

Hopefully ( and thankfully) we are now at a point where most fans can see the benefits of SL's long term plan because we are seeing success on the pitch and young players coming through whether from our own youth ranks or from the enlightened transfer policy. The acid test will be if and when we have a dip in form and results and are not riding high. That is the time when fans will need to have faith in the system continuing to work , as will be the case when one of our better players leaves but will not necessarily be replaced by the club going out and paying a massive fee for a like for like replacement.

Sorry Spud, I only meant to add a comment to your post but it went on a bit more than planned. However, it is a very long time since I have felt so positive about the club, and I got carried away a bit. 

 

Feeling it too mate...good times.

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