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Section 82 expansion...Ideas and Pitches?


Mr Popodopolous

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11 hours ago, Coombsy said:

Why is it easier to move the family sections around I was happy where we was last season. What do you call a normal season ticket holder. Surely the family should be treated the same as any ticket holder as they are the future fans.

would it be best to put the s82 in front of the dolman stand as they wil not block views and can expand along the pitch 

Coombsy sorry I think what I said came across wrong.  I’m saying what I feel from a clubs view. I think every fan should be catered for properly, families, less able, elderly, singers, people who love decent views etc. 

What I meant was, it’s easier to move a family section as people arnt that attached to the seats as only been there a few years. As the club have done saying there is more space, more activities for the kids in the upper Lansdown.

Moving say two blocks of the dolman stand, where people could have been season ticket holders since the 60s would have been an uproar. 

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I think many parts of Ashton Gate are quiet at times but full of people who would like to stand and sing, however feel they can't as if you try to join in you almost feel like an annoyance to the people around/behind you! 

The demand would be there for more standing and it would 100% help improve atmosphere, which in turn helps performance on the pitch!

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10 hours ago, tommy_b said:

But if we'd have implemented that design of the stand it requires people to sit with the seats locked. Installing safe standing seats isn't against legislation, it's having them locked up as standing... which would've been. 

Rail seats - even in a locked position are not classified as ‘seats’ for the authorities, so they could not be fitted. @Blagdon red is the man to explain.

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9 minutes ago, Barkhamred said:

Rail seats - even in a locked position are not classified as ‘seats’ for the authorities, so they could not be fitted. @Blagdon red is the man to explain.

Well that’s stupid. I clearly misremembered it from all the stories and details etc.

Thanks for clarifying it. 

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42 minutes ago, Barkhamred said:

Rail seats - even in a locked position are not classified as ‘seats’ for the authorities, so they could not be fitted. @Blagdon red is the man to explain.

That's correct and, yes, it is stupid!

Working with Bristol Sport, we tried to get the authorities to agree that rail seats could be used in standing mode for rugby and as seats for football (in the areas shown in the images above). However, DCMS deemed that rail seats were not "seated accommodation" as defined in the statutory order imposed on Ashton Gate for football games pursuant to the Football Spectators Act.

That ruling continues to be challenged. The installation at Celtic helps (although the legislation in Scotland is different) and the installation shortly at Shrewsbury will also help. There they WILL be able to use the rail seats as seats (if they ever wish to do so), as they are not (yet) subject to the restrictions of the Act.

The reasons that DCMS gave were that, being made of metal, rail seats were uncomfortable and that coupled with the rail (which they erroneously thought might create a sightline obstruction) they would therefore encourage standing, which, they said, would be contrary to the spirit of the Act.

That reasoning is, of course, flawed on all counts:

- There are plenty of 'seats' out there that are less comfortable than rail seats, e.g. the away end at Luton! Yet they are deemed to be "seated accommodation".

- The rail does not cause a sightline obstruction (cf. Celtic) and the government's own stadium safety body, the SGSA, has confirmed this.

- If the Act is seen as the legal interpretation of the recommendations of the Taylor Report, then it is not standing that would be against the 'spirit' of the Act, but exposing fans to risks of surging, crushing and buffeting, for it was those risks that Taylor sought to eliminate - he wanted fans safeguarded from "surging", "crushing" and "buffeting" (his words), not necessarily made to sit down. Clearly in areas of all-seater stadia where fans stand they are much more exposed to these risks if the seats around them are conventional low-backed ones than if they are rail seats. So rail seats, in fact, comply more with the spirit of the Act in such situations than do normal seats.

Many clubs, including Premier League ones, are still pushing hard for rail seats to be allowed. One has even submitted a formal application (supported by its SAG and local police force) to be allowed to install rail seats for both home and away fans in areas where they habitually stand. This has been done solely on the grounds of enhanced spectator safety. The application is currently sitting on a civil servant's desk at DCMS, where they are no doubt trying to figure out a reason to reject it. The club in question, however, is determined to contest any such rejection.

Bristol City, unfortunaly, have gone rather quiet on the issue.

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It’s the only part of the ground that sells out for 100% of games so for me it’s not a question of if it should be expanded but how it should be expanded.

The two options are expand the current area or create an additional area.

If the current area gets expanded it could either go into the Dolman which I don’t think would go down well in the upper section as a lot of supporters will have sat there for decades and aren’t interested in singing. The lower section could work though as I think this was built so standing wouldn’t effect the views in the upper section.

Or it could be expanded to the upper blocks in the South Stand which would probably cause less drama as the people sat there have only been there a couple of seasons anyway and some would probably like to stay and get involved anyway.

If an additional area gets created the only feasible area for me would be the corner of the South Stand and Lansdown Stand as again there would be no sight line issues. The club could even market both areas differently maybe have one for people that want to sing all game and have one for people that just want to stand in an unreserved area and sing occasionally?

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Who is going to raise the issue tonight then?

I cannot make it but I hope someone who is there might.

@Blagdon red Very interesting insight that.

One question I guess I will ask from what you said- when we had our railseats which were not permitted by the DCMS, What was the stance of our SAG- not withstanding the overriding block by DCMS? Were they leaning towards allowing it, or were they on the side of the DCMS, and classing it as they did?

As for the local police- perhaps @JulieH could provide some insight into whether our local police would, or indeed might have back supported the rail seats in principle- obviously before legislation put paid to it?

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This subject always provides lots of opinions and observations from fans, and clubs alike.

i don’t know enough unfortunately about rail seats and their various pros and cons . However on visiting Shrewsbury ground with rovers recently I am aware they have an agreed section of their end stand for safe standing  I am not sure of the exact numbers that are allowed to stand there but I am sure the local sag agreed to it . Perhaps it might be something blagdon red knows more about? 

I have asked that their football officer and their safety officer keeps me up to date with pros and cons of this area. I am keen to see how it all works .

 

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1 minute ago, JulieH said:

This subject always provides lots of opinions and observations from fans, and clubs alike.

i don’t know enough unfortunately about rail seats and their various pros and cons . However on visiting Shrewsbury ground with rovers recently I am aware they have an agreed section of their end stand for safe standing  I am not sure of the exact numbers that are allowed to stand there but I am sure the local sag agreed to it . Perhaps it might be something blagdon red knows more about? 

I have asked that their football officer and their safety officer keeps me up to date with pros and cons of this area. I am keen to see how it all works .

 

So... Cardiff away?

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21 minutes ago, JulieH said:

This subject always provides lots of opinions and observations from fans, and clubs alike.

i don’t know enough unfortunately about rail seats and their various pros and cons . However on visiting Shrewsbury ground with rovers recently I am aware they have an agreed section of their end stand for safe standing  I am not sure of the exact numbers that are allowed to stand there but I am sure the local sag agreed to it . Perhaps it might be something blagdon red knows more about? 

I have asked that their football officer and their safety officer keeps me up to date with pros and cons of this area. I am keen to see how it all works .

 

That's madness on their part isn't it? Their ground is small anyway and, I assume, with the current regulations, they wouldn't be able to use that area at all if they come up to the Championship?

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20 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

That's madness on their part isn't it? Their ground is small anyway and, I assume, with the current regulations, they wouldn't be able to use that area at all if they come up to the Championship?

After 3 years in the championship it would have to be changed for “seats” I believe. 

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8 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

After 3 years in the championship it would have to be changed for “seats” I believe. 

I'm not sure that's right WTGR AP. That applies to long standing terraced areas, this would be a converted seated area. I reckon they would have to put seats back in as it was a previously seated stand.

Obviously, I am happy to be corrected.

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17 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

I'm not sure that's right WTGR AP. That applies to long standing terraced areas, this would be a converted seated area. I reckon they would have to put seats back in as it was a previously seated stand.

Obviously, I am happy to be corrected.

The standing isn’t the issue, it’s the use of the seats. 

They arnt classed as seats, so cannot be used for seated accommodation.  So they would need to be replaced by what is deemed to be seats. 

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I will try and find out from them re conversion back to seats should they get promoted.

they were going to sell the area to season ticket holders only when I was there and were aiming it at their singing section as the area is behind the goal 

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5 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

The standing isn’t the issue, it’s the use of the seats. 

They arnt classed as seats, so cannot be used for seated accommodation.  So they would need to be replaced by what is deemed to be seats. 

That's not what I'm saying AP. The 3 year exemption applies only to clubs with established terrace areas which have been historically used as standing. Shrewsbury have a new, purpose built all seater stadium so it would not apply. Under the current rules, the 3 year exemption would not apply as they would have converted a previously seated area into standing. 

Stupid I appreciate but that's the rules as I understand them. 

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4 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

That's not what I'm saying AP. The 3 year exemption applies only to clubs with established terrace areas which have been historically used as standing. Shrewsbury have a new, purpose built all seater stadium so it would not apply. Under the current rules, the 3 year exemption would not apply as they would have converted a previously seated area into standing. 

Stupid I appreciate but that's the rules as I understand them. 

You are misunderstanding what the rules are.

Shrewsbury are a small number of clubs who have never been in the Championship or above, once you have been for 3 years you have to get rid of the terrace and go all seated. Once you have done this you can NEVER go back to terracing, regardless of if you get relegated and end up in league two for the rest of your clubs history.

As Shrewsbury haven’t, they are and have applied to have the safe standing as standing not as seats. The seats in safe standing are not deemed seats and would have to be ripped out and put back to proper seats. At this stage Shrewsbury would HAVE to stay all seated forever. By all seated I mean normal seats. 

From what i understand there is nothing to stop Shrewsbury building a new ground with “proper terracing”, that is of course untill they were in the championship for 3 years.

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5 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

You are misunderstanding what the rules are.

Shrewsbury are a small number of clubs who have never been in the Championship or above, once you have been for 3 years you have to get rid of the terrace and go all seated. Once you have done this you can NEVER go back to terracing, regardless of if you get relegated and end up in league two for the rest of your clubs history.

As Shrewsbury haven’t, they are and have applied to have the safe standing as standing not as seats. The seats in safe standing are not deemed seats and would have to be ripped out and put back to proper seats. At this stage Shrewsbury would HAVE to stay all seated forever. By all seated I mean normal seats. 

From what i understand there is nothing to stop Shrewsbury building a new ground with “proper terracing”, that is of course untill they were in the championship for 3 years.

I respectfully question that AP. If a ground is currently all seater, it cannot be converted back to terrace / safe standing and expect the exemption to apply. The 3 year 'rule' doesn't apply to them as a currently all seated stadium. If their stadium currently had established terracing, it would apply but by coverting seated areas to safe standing, I believe it doesn't.

We'll agree to disagree and see what happens if they come up. :thumbsup:

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7 minutes ago, Ska Junkie said:

I respectfully question that AP. If a ground is currently all seater, it cannot be converted back to terrace / safe standing and expect the exemption to apply. The 3 year 'rule' doesn't apply to them as a currently all seated stadium. If their stadium currently had established terracing, it would apply but by coverting seated areas to safe standing, I believe it doesn't.

We'll agree to disagree and see what happens if they come up. :thumbsup:

@Blagdon red will be able to advise but you are incorrect. 

They would not get a safety certificate as they are not seats, they would HAVE to be removed. 

Shrewsbury are a number of clubs where they are not bound by having to HAVE seats. 

The new area they are installing isn’t not being installed as seats, it is being installed as standing. It will be impossible , under current rules for Shrewsbury to sell them as seats.

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11 minutes ago, AshtonPark said:

@Blagdon red will be able to advise but you are incorrect. 

They would not get a safety certificate as they are not seats, they would HAVE to be removed. 

Shrewsbury are a number of clubs where they are not bound by having to HAVE seats. 

No need to get like that AP. I think I'm not 'incorrect' but you're talking about safe standing seats, I'm talking about the removal of the existing seats.

I respect you opinion but don't like the tone of your reply as I have a different view to you. Poor show TBH. I was trying to have a discussion but you don't seem to want to.

Ah well, your loss.

I quote...

The man leading the campaign for rail seating to be licensed for use in England, Jon Darch, of the Safe Standing Roadshow, last night branded the Government’s position on the issue as “absolutely bonkers”.

Pointing out six other league clubs with all-seater grounds - Bury, Chesterfield, Colchester United, Lincoln City, Mansfield Town and Oxford United - were facing the same dilemma as Shrewsbury and Northampton, he said: “How can it be that these clubs can, if they wish, put rail seats in but, if they get promoted and are forced to go back to all-seater, they then can’t use those rail seats as seats to comply with that requirement?”

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1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said:

No need to get like that AP. I think I'm not 'incorrect' but you're talking about safe standing seats, I'm talking about the removal of the existing seats.

I respect you opinion but don't like the tone of your reply as I have a different view to you. Poor show TBH. I was trying to have a discussion but you don't seem to want to.

Ah well, your loss.

I quote...

The man leading the campaign for rail seating to be licensed for use in England, Jon Darch, of the Safe Standing Roadshow, last night branded the Government’s position on the issue as “absolutely bonkers”.

Pointing out six other league clubs with all-seater grounds - Bury, Chesterfield, Colchester United, Lincoln City, Mansfield Town and Oxford United - were facing the same dilemma as Shrewsbury and Northampton, he said: “How can it be that these clubs can, if they wish, put rail seats in but, if they get promoted and are forced to go back to all-seater, they then can’t use those rail seats as seats to comply with that requirement?”

No ska. You are saying I am incorrect where I am not.  Your post there has agreed with what I put?

They are removing existing seats to use the safe standing seats and rails as STANDING areas. If they get promoted to the championship and stay there for 3 years, they HAVE to rip out the safe standing seats and rails, to replace with normal seats. Safe standing seats are not classed as seats, they would have to be taken out.

A previous post by blagdonred.

“Although they built their new ground as an all-seater 10 years ago, they did not NEED to do so. They haven't played for 3 years in the top two tiers since 1994 and so have never become subject to the all-seater legislation. They can therefore take advantage of a new process that has been put in place to enable clubs not covered by the legilsation (29 of the 92) to apply for consent to install rail seats for use as standing accommodation. They have now applied for this and been given the green light. Their SAG will have to sign off on it ultimately, but that isn't seen as an obstacle and the campaign to raise the money is launching on Wednesday”

 

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Just on a general observation, about why is it safe to stand below the top two divisions provided standing accommodation already there.

I suppose if it had diverged from this, it would have been looked at carefully but to me, the reason- and there was probably some wishful thinking as well as a lot of truth in there- but to me, the reason for allowance from the third tier downwards was because attendances rather low- as such, the standing area in general terms not so rammed. Seen highlights of lower League games last few years and there have been a handful of people on a terrace. Sad to see actually, whereas if you kept a terrace at AG but particularly grounds with a bigger historical fanbase, well it would be far more rammed and as far as the authorities would be concerned, would pose some of the risks- @Blagdon red touched upon some of them in a post in his thread.

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1 hour ago, AshtonPark said:

No ska. You are saying I am incorrect where I am not.  Your post there has agreed with what I put?

They are removing existing seats to use the safe standing seats and rails as STANDING areas. If they get promoted to the championship and stay there for 3 years, they HAVE to rip out the safe standing seats and rails, to replace with normal seats. Safe standing seats are not classed as seats, they would have to be taken out.

A previous post by blagdonred.

“Although they built their new ground as an all-seater 10 years ago, they did not NEED to do so. They haven't played for 3 years in the top two tiers since 1994 and so have never become subject to the all-seater legislation. They can therefore take advantage of a new process that has been put in place to enable clubs not covered by the legilsation (29 of the 92) to apply for consent to install rail seats for use as standing accommodation. They have now applied for this and been given the green light. Their SAG will have to sign off on it ultimately, but that isn't seen as an obstacle and the campaign to raise the money is launching on Wednesday”

 

Read the last sentence again WTGR. It states 'How can it be that these clubs can, if they wish, put rail seats in but, if they get promoted and are forced to go back to all-seater, they then can’t use those rail seats as seats to comply with that requirement?”

I've never said you' are incorrect' at all, just having a discussion about it. That quote states they would have to 'back to all seater' on promotion, not 3 years later.

If they come up, we'll see, not that I'm overly bothered anyway. :)

We've gone off topic anyway, apologies all.

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5 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

Read the last sentence again WTGR. It states 'How can it be that these clubs can, if they wish, put rail seats in but, if they get promoted and are forced to go back to all-seater, they then can’t use those rail seats as seats to comply with that requirement?”

I've never said you' are incorrect' at all, just having a discussion about it. That quote states they would have to 'back to all seater' on promotion, not 3 years later.

If they come up, we'll see, not that I'm overly bothered anyway. :)

We've gone off topic anyway, apologies all.

Im genuinely confused with what you are saying?

You said that the 3 year law wouldn’t count as isn’t a long established terrace. It doesn’t matter as this is being sold as standing. Safe standing seats are not classed as seats. The rule would apply 100% under the current ruling. 

if they are in the championship after 3 years they would need to be removed and replaced with seats. As safe standing seats are not classed as seats. 

That is what Blagdonred above said? 

What is incorrect with what I have said? You said to agree to disagree but I am not incorrect. The area will be classed as a terrace, not as seated accommodation. 

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1 minute ago, Ska Junkie said:

I have made my point clearly. Whether you understand it is not my problem. I believe that an all seater stadium converted to standing does NOT count as a terrace as it was a previously seated area so the 3 year law does not apply. Whether you read my posts or not is up to you but it appears you are just after a row, I'm not.

I have never said you are incorrect, I wouldn't be so crass.

I'm out of this conversation. 

 

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Ska, how am I up for a row? What you have put is incorrect. 

It will count as terracing as they are not bound by the rules you have stated, as they have NEVER been in them championship or higher for more than 3 years. 

It 100% counts as terracing, as what they are putting in doesn’t count as seats. I don’t see why you are trying to argue. 

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