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VAR a shambles -Shearer


Coupon

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I have watched that video several times and come to the same conclusion as the Ref.  Willian sees the defenders leg, jumps over it, drops his back leg to ensure he is "tripped" to try to get a penalty.  this is clearly cheating and well done the Ref for spotting it (backed up by VAR).

Unfortunately Shearer is of the opinion "there was contact so he is entitled to go down", perhaps VAR will demonstrate that he doesn't know what he is talking about - that's why he calls it a shambles.

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Willians wasn't a penalty, I also think Moratas wasn't a penalty, but think the yellow was harsh, the second one he received for being an idiot was deserved though. 

I applaud the referee for taking such a strong stance (Refs our game on Tuesday night as well by the way) but do you think next game he'll be equally as tough on people going down easily in the box? I can't see it myself. Too much inconsistency. 

On your other point, VAR isn't for me. It's been a shambles everywhere so far hasn't it? Think goal line technology is the furthest we should go. 

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55 minutes ago, Coupon said:

I have watched that video several times and come to the same conclusion as the Ref.  Willian sees the defenders leg, jumps over it, drops his back leg to ensure he is "tripped" to try to get a penalty.  this is clearly cheating and well done the Ref for spotting it (backed up by VAR).

Unfortunately Shearer is of the opinion "there was contact so he is entitled to go down", perhaps VAR will demonstrate that he doesn't know what he is talking about - that's why he calls it a shambles.

Willian was a clear pen. Clear as day. That ref was a Norwich fan. 

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I have move it to the right section.

For the benefit of the tape M’lud it was previously in the transfer section, hence some of the comments won’t make sense over here, nothing new there then! Yes I know I could have deleted them. 

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1 hour ago, Coupon said:

I have watched that video several times and come to the same conclusion as the Ref.  Willian sees the defenders leg, jumps over it, drops his back leg to ensure he is "tripped" to try to get a penalty.  this is clearly cheating and well done the Ref for spotting it (backed up by VAR).

Unfortunately Shearer is of the opinion "there was contact so he is entitled to go down", perhaps VAR will demonstrate that he doesn't know what he is talking about - that's why he calls it a shambles.

I'm not sure what game you were watching, but their 15 catches his front leg, his back leg doesn't even get touched. I agree, he's jumped, and if he hadn't the ref would have probably given him the BOD, but he's still caught. There is no way he's getting out of the way of that challenge whatever he doesn't.

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6 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

I'm not sure what game you were watching, but their 15 catches his front leg, his back leg doesn't even get touched. I agree, he's jumped, and if he hadn't the ref would have probably given him the BOD, but he's still caught. There is no way he's getting out of the way of that challenge whatever he doesn't.

The red cards were interesting.  Personally I think Pedro should be become a straight red. Plain cheating and retrospective bans aren't enough. 

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4 minutes ago, Robin1988 said:

I'm not sure what game you were watching, but their 15 catches his front leg, his back leg doesn't even get touched. I agree, he's jumped, and if he hadn't the ref would have probably given him the BOD, but he's still caught. There is no way he's getting out of the way of that challenge whatever he doesn't.

The problem is that from one angle he looks like he has been clipped and gone down- From this angle i'm of the thought it's a stone wall penalty....

In The other it looks like he is already going down and left a leg hanging... So from this angle i think the ref got it right...

 

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1 minute ago, cider-manc said:

The problem is that from one angle he looks like he has been clipped and gone down- From this angle i'm of the thought it's a stone wall penalty....

In The other it looks like he is already going down and left a leg hanging... So from this angle i think the ref got it right...

I think he is makes a meal of it, but that doesn't stop it from being a foul. The fact that 15 catches his front leg rather than his trailing one (you can see from the front-on angle he doesn't touch it) is pretty decisive

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I think the fact that some people think it was a pen and some don’t indicate VAR is doing what it should - it’s there to overturn the clear errors, but if there is doubt, the decision stays with the on field official - effectively “umpires call” in cricket. 

I think we can agree instigating contact and being “clever” isn’t necessarily a pen so in this case, whether it was a pen or not in each of our opinions, Shearers wrong

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9 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think the fact that some people think it was a pen and some don’t indicate VAR is doing what it should - it’s there to overturn the clear errors, but if there is doubt, the decision stays with the on field official - effectively “umpires call” in cricket. 

I think we can agree instigating contact and being “clever” isn’t necessarily a pen so in this case, whether it was a pen or not in each of our opinions, Shearers wrong

And there we go. Case closed. 

I was going to bring up Cricket... specifically when the 3rd umpire is used to deduce whether the ball made contact with the ground before a catch is taken. Time and time again, even in super slow motion it’s nearky impossible to tell. 

For me, Willian’s was 50/50. 

And I love that the Chelsea players got their deserved marching orders. It’s only a shame they didn’t get their comeuppance in terms of the result. 

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14 minutes ago, Silvio Dante said:

I think the fact that some people think it was a pen and some don’t indicate VAR is doing what it should - it’s there to overturn the clear errors, but if there is doubt, the decision stays with the on field official - effectively “umpires call” in cricket. 

I think we can agree instigating contact and being “clever” isn’t necessarily a pen so in this case, whether it was a pen or not in each of our opinions, Shearers wrong

There’s a shock. Loved him when I was a kid but he doesn’t half talk some shite. 

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Just catching up on all this now and Shearer's "shambles" argument is bizarre, considering he was only talking before about how it should only be used in factual circumstances.  That's exactly what VAR has done in this case - there wasn't clear enough evidence to show that the referee was wrong and hence his original call stands. That's fine.

I think it probably was a penalty personally but it's (nearly) always a grey area and whether there's actual/enough contact is definitely debatable.  The Norwich player committed though and clearly missed the ball that's why I think there's enough to give a pen.

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8 minutes ago, Roe said:

Just catching up on all this now and Shearer's "shambles" argument is bizarre, considering he was only talking before about how it should only be used in factual circumstances.  That's exactly what VAR has done in this case - there wasn't clear enough evidence to show that the referee was wrong and hence his original call stands. That's fine.

I think it probably was a penalty personally but it's (nearly) always a grey area and whether there's actual/enough contact is definitely debatable.  The Norwich player committed though and clearly missed the ball that's why I think there's enough to give a pen.

Not sure how much clearer evidence is needed! One of the most blatant pens I have seen this season.

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My prediction is that VAR will be hated by the majority of fans within 6 months.  

Will slow the game down, wrong decisions will still be made and referees will refer too much in fear of getting it wrong. 

Australia has got rid of it and it hasnt been great in rugby.  It has been good in cricket and tennis because these are slower sports and the results are factual i.e ball either was or wasnt on the line and was or wasnt hitting the wickets.

Football is not like that and thus this whole thing will fail

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Shearer did make a good point about how would VAR be used and what would the outcome be when a player is flagged offside and he's through on goal but he isn't close enough to score so a goal can't be given and he's been wrongly flagged offside. Obviously it's early on in VAR but it's certainly a step in the right direction that will take time to get it perfect

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Ignoring VAR for a moment. 

I guess the definition of a penalty is a foul / infringement that happens in the box. That’s clear. 

But was is the definition of of a foul / infringement?  That is where it falls down and becomes subjective. 

The use of ‘contact’ as the determiner is wrong, or else you can’t have any contact full stop. It therefore has to be the interpretation by the official.  Plus you also have the added issue of the attacking player dragging a leg to force contact   I think you will often be able to tell this as it tends to happen after the player has started the motion of falling over, i.e. they’re already on their way down. 

Re Willian - I’m sure there was contact. But I wasn’t really too bothered to watch closely enough whether he helped draw the contact or not. 

What I will say is that a few minutes later he jinked his way into box and under similar sliding challenge he stayed on his feat and hit a powerful shot that Gunn saved. That sort of makes me think the first one was a dive and he wasn’t gonna risk a second yellow. 

Back to VAR - it can’t work for these types of decision. Simple in my mind. 

Re the Iheanacho VAR goal. The linesman flagged I believe. Did any Fleetwood players stop. They of course should play to the whistle, just wondering what happened. 

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5 minutes ago, RedDave said:

My prediction is that VAR will be hated by the majority of fans within 6 months.  

Will slow the game down, wrong decisions will still be made and referees will refer too much in fear of getting it wrong. 

Australia has got rid of it and it hasnt been great in rugby.  It has been good in cricket and tennis because these are slower sports and the results are factual i.e ball either was or wasnt on the line and was or wasnt hitting the wickets.

Football is not like that and thus this whole thing will fail

I hope you are right.

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Absolutely agree with Shearer.  Cricket, Rugby Union and Tennis are all stop-start games; Football is almost continuous play and the disruption to the flow of the game that VAR could potentially bring would be for the game as a spectacle.  Debatable decisions are all part of the game - just make sure the refs are well-trained and accept what they do.  Do we really want a micro-analysis of every decision?  For me, the old adage that the referee's decision is final is fine - it all balances itself out in the long run.

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24 minutes ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

Absolutely agree with Shearer.  Cricket, Rugby Union and Tennis are all stop-start games; Football is almost continuous play and the disruption to the flow of the game that VAR could potentially bring would be for the game as a spectacle.  Debatable decisions are all part of the game - just make sure the refs are well-trained and accept what they do.  Do we really want a micro-analysis of every decision?  For me, the old adage that the referee's decision is final is fine - it all balances itself out in the long run.

That's the main problem I have with it. I don't like it in its current format, but if rules were changed to give each teams manager/captain 2 opportunities a game to use it, like Tennis/Cricket then I think it could be successful. 

Another thing that crossed my mind the other day when thinking this, was that had it been used in the game vs Man United, imagine the torture we'd have had waiting for 2 minutes whilst Mourinho challenged Korey Smiths goal saying we were offside. Sort of ruins celebrations also. 

 

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VAR is awful and it doesn't even try to solve the right problem. That a referee may get the odd decision wrong is part and parcel of the game. They make mistakes, the same as everybody else in the game, and it adds to the depth of the sport.

The problem is that managers in particular focus on mistakes made by the referee to deflect attention away from mistakes made by themselves or their players. They expect infallibility from the officials but not from themselves. Or rather they act like they themselves are infallible, hence any mistakes must be down to the referee.

I don't want a game in which every refereeing decision is correct, or indeed a game in which every decision can be deemed to be correct or incorrect. I want a game where the decisions of the officials matter and where they are respected.

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