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This Penalty nonsense...


spudski

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....is it not spoiling the beautiful game?

Surely the idea of the penalty rule originally, was to reward a team a free shot at goal, if one had been stopped by the opposition illegally?

Now...so many games are won or lost by a penalty being awarded for the slightest infringement that had no chance of a goal ever being scored.

Yesterday was a prime example at the Liverpool v Spurs game.

Deli Alli diving to try and get a penalty and then a penalty being awarded to Spurs, when one of their players jumps in between a Liverpool player and the ball, to try and get contact and go down. Not even looking at the ball or attempting to kick it. Total madness. How does that action justify the reward of a free shot at goal?

Players dive, cheat and do what happened yesterday. Defenders can't defend properly as they are too scared of giving away a penalty. All too soft.

How does a ball clipping a players hand on the edge of the penalty box, away from goal, justify and being rewarded with a free shot on goal?

Then at corners...shirt pulling, obstructing, pushing, shoving etc....and very rarely any of that gets punished...although one did yesterday. The inconsistency on how refs award penalty's is beyond bizarre and spoiling the game...all this talk of 'VAR'...we wouldn't need it if the rule was changed.

What's the point in all these managers tactics and playing a certain way...dominating a game etc, all to be undone by one moment of madness that doesn't justify the reward of a penalty?

Get the ball in the box as much as possible, tell your players to keep going down, and eventually you'll be awarded a penalty....that's the way it's going.

For me, a penalty should only be awarded if a shot at goal was stopped illegally.

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It is boring.

Pretty obvious some sides (Bournemouth, Palace & Leicester all spring to mind) base a huge percentage of their game now on winning penalties.

This tactic of hooking your leg around a defender (or keeper) to win a penalty really winds me up, let alone the notorious serial divers like Alli, Vardy, Zaha and Callum Wilson.

Very few attackers look to stay on their feet these days and don’t get me started on all the ridiculous shirt holding at set pieces, a nonsense that ALL teams are guilty of nowadays.

No idea of the answer, though...

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30 minutes ago, Bobby Bollax said:

The game is becoming a non contact sport inside the 18 yard box.

Oddly the sort of holding and pushing that goes on is regularly not penalised (watch what happens to Flint at any corner we get) but then penalties are often awarded when there's no chance of a goal been scored. Have a lot of sympathy with the OP, who makes good points - think the rule needs an overhaul and the divers (i.e. cheats) need to be serving bans if found out after the event. As for this 'entitled to go down' nonsense the sooner that is stopped the better...

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Controversial this, but I wonder if a different sort of box might help with the penalty situation (not really relevant to OP but been thinking about it a lot recently).

A player might get fouled on the corner of the box whilst not in a scoring position and suddenly be awarded a penalty,  which is obviously unfair. Same can be largely applied for most things in the wider areas of the box. Wonder if it's time to have a square within the box, where penalties can be awarded, with indirect/direct free kicks given in the other areas.

Maybe even a semicircle like you get in hockey, but retaining the original box so the keeper can come out the same distance.

Just a thought.

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26 minutes ago, Super said:

I would say that the standard of officiating is getting worse but they aren't helped by more players cheating.

Who'd be a ref!

I get as pissed off with the bad decisions, just like anybody else but where would the game be if no one was prepared to referee?

Personally I think the berk Lawrenson should sit in a central control room and officiate all the games simultaneously.

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I think with handball, the rules could be changed slightly to differentiate between deliberate and accidental.

Accidental handball should be seen as an infringement whether or not  it was intentional - a player rarely concedes a corner or a throw in intentionally but nonetheless the ball has left the field of play which infringes the rules so the opposing team get awarded possession. 

In that spirit, I think all accidental handball should result in an indirect free kick, even if it takes place in the penalty area.

I would have no problem with the rules being amended so a penalty is only awarded when a foul or handball denies a clear goalscoring opportunity with direct free kicks in the penalty area being awarded for fouls and deliberate handballs where it has not clearly prevented a goal from being scored. 

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15 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

Controversial this, but I wonder if a different sort of box might help with the penalty situation (not really relevant to OP but been thinking about it a lot recently).

A player might get fouled on the corner of the box whilst not in a scoring position and suddenly be awarded a penalty,  which is obviously unfair. Same can be largely applied for most things in the wider areas of the box. Wonder if it's time to have a square within the box, where penalties can be awarded, with indirect/direct free kicks given in the other areas.

Maybe even a semicircle like you get in hockey, but retaining the original box so the keeper can come out the same distance.

Just a thought.

I think the box's are fine...I think the decision should purely come down to the ref, and a penalty only awarded if a player is stopped from a clear goal scoring/shooting opportunity illegally. If it's not a shooting opportunity, how is it fair to award a free shot at goal if like you say it's on the edge of the box, back to goal or a slight deflected hand ball, with the ball going away from the goal? The reward doesn't justify the 'crime'.

More direct free kicks should be used inside the box imo. With maybe a limit to how many can defend the free kick. Maybe the same amount of players that were defending and in the box at the time? That would be far fairer.

I would also be more inclined to have a sin bin...where players aren't sent off if it wasn't deliberate. Sometimes you get two bookings for the most innocuous challenges that really don't deserve going down to 10 men.

Some rules need to be thought through again imo.

33 minutes ago, Super said:

I would say that the standard of officiating is getting worse but they aren't helped by more players cheating.

 

4 minutes ago, Roger Red Hat said:

Who'd be a ref!

I get as pissed off with the bad decisions, just like anybody else but where would the game be if no one was prepared to referee?

Personally I think the berk Lawrenson should sit in a central control room and officiate all the games simultaneously.

The reason players cheat, is because of the penalty rule itself. It's rewards far out way the 'sin'.

Players wouldn't do it, if the rule was changed and then Refs wouldn't have the problem.

Take away the cause and it doesn't happen.

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I think a simple but effective rule change would be to split penalty decisions as they are now into two categories, goal scoring and non goal scoring, and award different fouls accordingly: 

  • If a player is brought down in a clear goal scoring opportunity / if a handball denies a clear goal scoring opportunity, then award a penalty.
  • If a player is fouled in the box running away from goal / if the ball clips a players hand on the edge of the box, neither of which represent a clear goal scoring opportunity, then a direct freekick is awarded on the edge of the box in line with where the foul occurred. 

The debate would then turn to whether it was a clear goal scoring opportunity or not but the idea of this already exists in last man / red card decisions.

The rule in its current state isn't fit for purpose IMO and is ruining games with all this diving and deceiving referees. 

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1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

I think with handball, the rules could be changed slightly to differentiate between deliberate and accidental.

Accidental handball should be seen as an infringement whether or not  it was intentional - a player rarely concedes a corner or a throw in intentionally but nonetheless the ball has left the field of play which infringes the rules so the opposing team get awarded possession. 

In that spirit, I think all accidental handball should result in an indirect free kick, even if it takes place in the penalty area.

I would have no problem with the rules being amended so a penalty is only awarded when a foul or handball denies a clear goalscoring opportunity with direct free kicks in the penalty area being awarded for fouls and deliberate handballs where it has not clearly prevented a goal from being scored. 

I can't remember the last time that I saw a ref put his arm in the air when a free kick is taken to indicate that it is indirect. Does the concept of an indirect free kick even feature in the Laws these days?

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5 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

I can't remember the last time that I saw a ref put his arm in the air when a free kick is taken to indicate that it is indirect. Does the concept of an indirect free kick even feature in the Laws these days?

Most of ours are indirect, judging by where they end up! :)

 

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Yes @spudski, and yes @LondonBristolian. Often have the exact same conversation about penalties and handballs.

Hits a hand: free kick.

Player clearly handballs deliberately: free kick and yellow card.

Deliberate handball denying a clear shot/goal: penalty and red card*.

Normal foul in the box: free kick.

Deny a clear shot on goal, in or out of the box: penalty.

There’s nothing more nonsensical than a player being clean through on goal, but then getting hacked down a yard outside the box and thus only getting a free kick. That’s far more deserving of a penalty than, as @spudski says, being clipped in the corner of the box by the byline.

Only rules I’d change about football, I think. Other than “Bristol City win by default”, of course.

Oh, and golden goal, because it’s awesome.

 

*I’d actually be in favour of awarding penalty goals in some cases, such as bloody Suarez against Ghana.

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8 minutes ago, RedYoshi said:

Yes @spudski, and yes @LondonBristolian. Often have the exact same conversation about penalties and handballs.

Hits a hand: free kick.

Player clearly handballs deliberately: free kick and yellow card.

Deliberate handball denying a clear shot/goal: penalty and red card*.

Normal foul in the box: free kick.

Deny a clear shot on goal, in or out of the box: penalty.

There’s nothing more nonsensical than a player being clean through on goal, but then getting hacked down a yard outside the box and thus only getting a free kick. That’s far more deserving of a penalty than, as @spudski says, being clipped in the corner of the box by the byline.

Only rules I’d change about football, I think. Other than “Bristol City win by default”, of course.

Oh, and golden goal, because it’s awesome.

 

*I’d actually be in favour of awarding penalty goals in some cases, such as bloody Suarez against Ghana.

Totally agree with that and have felt that for a long time.

Defender deliberately handballs it on the goal-line.

Natural instinct.

Red card and penalty.

What a 'kin joke.

Just award a penalty goal, and leave the bloke to continue the game, 11 a side.

 

Also feel that at times, you see a foul in the box which is rightly given as a penalty.

However the bloke that is fouled, over exaggerates the offence by diving and/or rolling three or four times, holding his head, leg or whatever.

IMO, whilst awarding a justified penalty (or even a free kick if outside the box) the ref should also book the fouled player for simulation.

Have never seen a ref do this though (although Bailey Wright served a two game ban for exactly that earlier this season after later examination by a "panel")

Same bloody panel could be employed full time to review ever game for the same type of offences.

 

Rant over.....

 

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20 hours ago, RedYoshi said:

Yes @spudski, and yes @LondonBristolian. Often have the exact same conversation about penalties and handballs.

Hits a hand: free kick.

Player clearly handballs deliberately: free kick and yellow card.

Deliberate handball denying a clear shot/goal: penalty and red card*.

Normal foul in the box: free kick.

Deny a clear shot on goal, in or out of the box: penalty.

There’s nothing more nonsensical than a player being clean through on goal, but then getting hacked down a yard outside the box and thus only getting a free kick. That’s far more deserving of a penalty than, as @spudski says, being clipped in the corner of the box by the byline.

Only rules I’d change about football, I think. Other than “Bristol City win by default”, of course.

Oh, and golden goal, because it’s awesome.

 

*I’d actually be in favour of awarding penalty goals in some cases, such as bloody Suarez against Ghana.

Lovely ideas, but enforcement of the current rules is already far too subjective, let alone changes like you suggest. 

I'd suggest that really all that needs to doing are the current rules being enforced vigorously and consistently. Any shirt pulling, diving, kicking the ball away (a yard or 90 yards it makes no difference), carrying the ball away after giving away a freekick etc etc, all enforced properly. It would be carnage for a weekend with cards all over the place, but the players would soon get the idea.

The only other additions I'd make is a TV official like in rugby but also make this person able to talk "live" to the referee without the need for referee's request. 

And also proper retrospective punishment for anything missed during the game.

Like I say, it'd be carnage for a week or maybe 2, but then players would get with the program and the game would be so much better for it.

 

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I think tougher rules should be enforced on teams whose players cheat.

Every time a player is booked for diving (or found guilty retrospectively) the team gets a mark against them.

After a certain number of marks it is a club fine, followed by an increased fine, and then a points deduction.

 

But, if a player is wrongly booked for diving they are able to appeal so that one isn't wrongly held against them.

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2 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

I think tougher rules should be enforced on teams whose players cheat.

Every time a player is booked for diving (or found guilty retrospectively) the team gets a mark against them.

After a certain number of marks it is a club fine, followed by an increased fine, and then a points deduction.

 

But, if a player is wrongly booked for diving they are able to appeal so that one isn't wrongly held against them.

Fine the manager, that'll soon put a stop to it.

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What always pi***s me off is : a) players are sent off which in most cases affects the match result and then have their the sending off rescinded, but the match result stands. b) Penalties are given and players may be sent off but again the result stands whether or not  in retrospect the penalty was found valid. If results like disciplinary measures could be reversed/adjusted later on and points reallocated then teams might at last take responsibility for their tactics.

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On 2/5/2018 at 09:54, spudski said:

....is it not spoiling the beautiful game?

Surely the idea of the penalty rule originally, was to reward a team a free shot at goal, if one had been stopped by the opposition illegally?

Now...so many games are won or lost by a penalty being awarded for the slightest infringement that had no chance of a goal ever being scored.

Yesterday was a prime example at the Liverpool v Spurs game.

Deli Alli diving to try and get a penalty and then a penalty being awarded to Spurs, when one of their players jumps in between a Liverpool player and the ball, to try and get contact and go down. Not even looking at the ball or attempting to kick it. Total madness. How does that action justify the reward of a free shot at goal?

Players dive, cheat and do what happened yesterday. Defenders can't defend properly as they are too scared of giving away a penalty. All too soft.

How does a ball clipping a players hand on the edge of the penalty box, away from goal, justify and being rewarded with a free shot on goal?

Then at corners...shirt pulling, obstructing, pushing, shoving etc....and very rarely any of that gets punished...although one did yesterday. The inconsistency on how refs award penalty's is beyond bizarre and spoiling the game...all this talk of 'VAR'...we wouldn't need it if the rule was changed.

What's the point in all these managers tactics and playing a certain way...dominating a game etc, all to be undone by one moment of madness that doesn't justify the reward of a penalty?

Get the ball in the box as much as possible, tell your players to keep going down, and eventually you'll be awarded a penalty....that's the way it's going.

For me, a penalty should only be awarded if a shot at goal was stopped illegally.

What about the foul on Reid at Bolton, that the referee bizarrely gave the other way?, no shot at goal prevented there but clearly a penalty or the assault on Mctominay of Manu v Huddersfield?.

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One change I'd like to see is that with 5 minutes remaining, the fourth official comes onto the pitch and shouts that it's time for tea.  Then, one of the captains shouts that next goal wins, no matter what the scoreline is at that stage.

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1 minute ago, cheese said:

One change I'd like to see is that with 5 minutes remaining, the fourth official comes onto the pitch and shouts that it's time for tea.  Then, one of the captains shouts that next goal wins, no matter what the scoreline is at that stage.

Also if like last night Swansea v Notts County, the teams are so badly unbalanced, even it up by allowing the team being soundly beaten at half time to take on up to 3 or 4 players from the opposition.

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It definitely needs looking at. This whole business of players falling down when there’s been minimal contact (like both Tottenham’s penalties) is ridiculous and is one thing about the game that really frustrates me. Similarly the way blatant holding/pushing/shirt pulling in the box is often completely ignored. Retrospective cards or bans for cheating based on video evidence would be a starting point.

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20 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

What about the foul on Reid at Bolton, that the referee bizarrely gave the other way?, no shot at goal prevented there but clearly a penalty or the assault on Mctominay of Manu v Huddersfield?.

Agreed in that scenario...yes. Reid was clearly impeded from taking a shot at goal by the GK, who completely missed the ball and took Reid out.

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Make the penalty area smaller in area and change the shape to that of an Isosceles Trapezoid.

The shortest length of the trapezoid could be the width of the 6 yard box along the goal line and the longer length could be the current line used widthways for the 18 yard box. The area of the trapezoid would effectively be the “shooting / goal scoring zone”.

This would result in less penalties from incidents in non threatening areas (i.e. outside the shooting / goal scoring zone)

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If you make the penalty area smaller, then defenders can take more risks in their defending. This'll ultimately lead to more successful tackles, and therefore, less goals. The threat of giving away a penalty forces defenders to defend differently as soon as the ball enters the box, giving the attackers an advantage. 

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On 05/02/2018 at 10:24, Super said:

I would say that the standard of officiating is getting worse but they aren't helped by more players cheating.

I agree, although it’s hard enough to see, accurately, the vast majority of what’s happening on any football pitch, let alone with people trying to make incidents happen (cheating)

The pace of players and games these days must be incredible for the referees to keep up with. 

I don’t know why they’ve never increased the number of officials, who could all work as a team. Maybe a ref in each half, with 4 linesmen. 

They need to do something to make the job easier for them, with such massive prizes at stake. 

They need to start with instant retrospective bans, for evidence of clear cheating. 

The whole thing of not being able to review if the Ref books a player, is an utter farce! It’s almost worth trying to cheat and see if you get away with it! Utter nonsense..!

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7 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

The pace of players and games these days must be incredible for the referees to keep up with. 

Surely that's why Select Group 2 (the Championship referees pool) was formed? It's allowed them to become full-time professional referees but not sure we've seen particularly worthy improvements in the last couple of years.

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On 05/02/2018 at 10:00, GrahamC said:

It is boring.

Pretty obvious some sides (Bournemouth, Palace & Leicester all spring to mind) base a huge percentage of their game now on winning penalties.

This tactic of hooking your leg around a defender (or keeper) to win a penalty really winds me up, let alone the notorious serial divers like Alli, Vardy, Zaha and Callum Wilson.

Very few attackers look to stay on their feet these days and don’t get me started on all the ridiculous shirt holding at set pieces, a nonsense that ALL teams are guilty of nowadays.

No idea of the answer, though...

New rule: A player must attempt to stay on his feet at all times. If, in the referees opinion, the player didn't attempt to stay on his feet then no free kick or penalty can be awarded. 

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21 hours ago, glynriley said:

Fine the manager, that'll soon put a stop to it.

Fines are irrelevant with the financial rewards of being in the Premiership. League points is the only currency that clubs worry about. Start deducting those and then let's see what changes.

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27 minutes ago, View from the Dolman said:

Surely that's why Select Group 2 (the Championship referees pool) was formed? It's allowed them to become full-time professional referees but not sure we've seen particularly worthy improvements in the last couple of years.

Being fitter or full time isn’t going to ensure that 1 person (deliberately ignoring useless linesmen) can accurately spot every detail of 22 people’s actions, when they are spread around a football pitch. 

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