Are City too soft / nice against the opposition?

[reddogkev]

Just considering some areas that might be holding us back, and I wonder if we are too nice, or soft, or even friendly - to be truly competitive at the top.

Ok, there are 2 clear exceptions, Baker and Flint, who dominate and intimidate in equal measure.  But what about the rest of the team? 

You could say that out of the rest, Wright, Pack, Smith, and Reid put themselves about, but do they go far enough?  Even Diedhoiu, the big man upfront, doesn't seem to give defenders as torrid time as you might expect.

This goes all the way up to Lee Johnson, who is the proverbial nice guy, always smiling with a happy go lucky shine to his eyes. Yes, Macca and no doubt Holden channel their inner beast if they need to, but does this go far enough?  Even Stephen Lansdown is always pictured with a charming grin.  An affable man if ever there was one.

Look at Wolves, savage creatures by name and nature, with their gaffer the type of man to fix you with his mean stare and cheer in your directors box with hostile passion at a last minute winner.

Now, I wouldn't want us to have the terrible discipline of Leeds for example, but a touch more aggression wouldn't go amiss, would it?  Think of Bryan failing to stop Ameobi, and the rest of the midfield merely running back with him, and dare I say it they may need to be a bit more uglier and brutal - could be the way to bring home the points in games like Bolton away, Millwall home, etc.

Perhaps in the Summer we need to bring in some more steel and street wise savvy to our playing squad.

 

 

[Major Isewater]

4 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Just considering some areas that might be holding us back, and I wonder if we are too nice, or soft, or even friendly - to be truly competitive at the top.

Ok, there are 2 clear exceptions, Baker and Flint, who dominate and intimidate in equal measure.  But what about the rest of the team? 

You could say that out of the rest, Wright, Pack, Smith, and Reid put themselves about, but do they go far enough?  Even Diedhoiu, the big man upfront, doesn't seem to give defenders as torrid time as you might expect.

This goes all the way up to Lee Johnson, who is the proverbial nice guy, always smiling with a happy go lucky shine to his eyes. Yes, Macca and no doubt Holden channel their inner beast if they need to, but does this go far enough?  Even Stephen Lansdown is always pictured with a charming grin.  An affable man if ever there was one.

Look at Wolves, savage creatures by name and nature, with their gaffer the type of man to fix you with his mean stare and cheer in your directors box with hostile passion at a last minute winner.

Now, I wouldn't want us to have the terrible discipline of Leeds for example, but a touch more aggression wouldn't go amiss, would it?  Think of Bryan failing to stop Ameobi, and the rest of the midfield merely running back with him, and dare I say it they may need to be a bit more uglier and brutal - could be the way to bring home the points in games like Bolton away, Millwall home, etc.

Perhaps in the Summer we need to bring in some more steel and street wise savvy to our playing squad.

 

 

Like Cardiff .

[reddogkev]

3 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Like Cardiff .

I actually had a sentence stating perhaps a bit more like Cardiff, but I had to delete it - almost made me feel sick!  But, yep, a bit more like them ...

[miser]

So just a little bit nastier? Would that allow Bryan to take out Ameola without getting sent off ?

[reddoh]

5 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Like Cardiff .

weak or crap refs

[Rich]

We've always been a soft touch as a club. That's from the top down to the supporters, so it's not surprising that even tough players mellow a little after a time here, though there are exceptions. It's a nice area, relatively well off, with less people having to strive and struggle to eek out a living. I've noticed over the years that even our more vocal supporters are somewhat reactive than proactive when things aint going quite right on the pitch, when compared to other teams (mainly from further north), who do their utmost to vocally encourage their team to better things, unless they're deemed to be not trying, in which case they're told in no uncertain terms. Can we change it? I doubt that, it's built into our psyche to be mellow, unlike our noisier more demanding northern brothers. Having said that, if that's all it took to provide success on the football pitch, Newcastle would be challenging at the top all the time, so there's hope for us still.

[reddogkev]

12 minutes ago, miser said:

So just a little bit nastier? Would that allow Bryan to take out Ameola without getting sent off ?

If Bryan had tried something different, picked up a second yellow, thus being duly sent off, Ameobi wouldn't have scored, and who knows what would have happened after.  Sometimes 10 v 11 opens up new situations and could have even given us a chance to snatch it at the end.

Stranger things have happened.  Might have just finished 0-0.

[Davefevs]

14 minutes ago, reddogkev said:

Just considering some areas that might be holding us back, and I wonder if we are too nice, or soft, or even friendly - to be truly competitive at the top.

Think this is an area we’ve already improved in a lot this season.

Ok, there are 2 clear exceptions, Baker and Flint, who dominate and intimidate in equal measure.  But what about the rest of the team? 

Flint is not aggressive, when was the last time you saw him go through his striker, or go in a bit studs up?  Never.  Consequently he doesn’t get carded very often, usually mistimed, rather than calculated.  He’s a very ‘fair’ CB.  Baker has his moments.  Wright is very competitive, but I wouldn’t want to be marked by him.  Hard, but fair.  I think Joe has a bit of edge to him.  He’s quite clever in that when he tackles hard, it’s fully committed and can quite often leave a little bit on his marker.  When he gets his timing a little out, he can make some pretty poor challenges (Man City and Bolton - both halfway up his opponent!)

You could say that out of the rest, Wright, Pack, Smith, and Reid put themselves about, but do they go far enough?  Even Diedhoiu, the big man upfront, doesn't seem to give defenders as torrid time as you might expect.

Wright, mentioned above.  The others, good, combative players.  I’m quite happy with the little trips to break up play, we’ve improved there....but if you start suggesting we start going ‘over the top of the ball’, then we’ll turn into Cardiff or Leeds, and eventually yellows and reds will tot up.  Hope we don’t!

This goes all the way up to Lee Johnson, who is the proverbial nice guy, always smiling with a happy go lucky shine to his eyes. Yes, Macca and no doubt Holden channel their inner beast if they need to, but does this go far enough?  Even Stephen Lansdown is always pictured with a charming grin.  An affable man if ever there was one.

Media personas....better LJ is pretty uncompromising behind closed doors.  SL, I heard was a bit of a bastard to work for / with!

Look at Wolves, savage creatures by name and nature, with their gaffer the type of man to fix you with his mean stare and cheer in your directors box with hostile passion at a last minute winner.

Take it you’ve never been pecked by a Robin!  Vicious!!

Now, I wouldn't want us to have the terrible discipline of Leeds for example, but a touch more aggression wouldn't go amiss, would it?  Think of Bryan failing to stop Ameobi, and the rest of the midfield merely running back with him, and dare I say it they may need to be a bit more uglier and brutal - could be the way to bring home the points in games like Bolton away, Millwall home, etc.

Would’ve been a cheap 2nd yellow, a one game suspension.  Rather we hadn’t backed off and off until he was in shooting range.

Perhaps in the Summer we need to bring in some more steel and street wise savvy to our playing squad.

....but not dirty.  Streetwise and Savvy we can develop further ‘indoors’.

 

 

 

[ZiderEyed]

2 minutes ago, Rich said:

We've always been a soft touch as a club. That's from the top down to the supporters, so it's not surprising that even tough players mellow a little after a time here, though there are exceptions. It's a nice area, relatively well off, with less people having to strive and struggle to eek out a living. I've noticed over the years that even our more vocal supporters are somewhat reactive than proactive when things aint going quite right on the pitch, when compared to other teams (mainly from further north), who do their utmost to vocally encourage their team to better things, unless they're deemed to be not trying, in which case they're told in no uncertain terms. Can we change it? I doubt that, it's built into our psyche to be mellow, unlike our noisier more demanding northern brothers. Having said that, if that's all it took to provide success on the football pitch, Newcastle would be challenging at the top all the time, so there's hope for us still.

I'd like to call this out as balls.

- I don't think Bristol is particularly well off, most big cities aren't. One in four children in Bristol live in poverty. One in five elderly people do. Half of kids in Lawrence Hill are in poverty. It is a luverly area though.

- I don't think the supporters are a soft touch, certainly not in the circles I move in (as a club I can accept, we've been unprofessionally run for years although that appears to be changing).

- Supporters being reactive rather than proactive is almost universal in English football, and despite anomalies, I think it has nothing to do with the north or the south. Would like to know which teams in particular you deem to be more demanding and want to vocally encourage their team more.

- I think that the fact Bristol City and Bristol Rovers are two clubs in the top 10 (might be top 5, correct me) of banning orders I don't think the mellow argument cuts it!

[cidered abroad]

Yes we are too soft compared with many other clubs. As a real oldie, I wonder if the "Atyeo" effect still runs through the club. He played football the right way and even the hard man of the side, Ginger Peacock was more of a comical character than a viscous, hard, and dirty sod like the Chopper Harris and Johnny Giles of the football world. 

We always appear to be naive compared with many other clubs! But I don't know how much I want us to change. Too far and I won't be watching but to go up, we need to get more savvy. 

[View from the Dolman]

If you watch LJ on the touchline closely, he's no shrinking silent one when he's not happy. 

[Pickle Rick]

We are not at all too nice or soft. In fact, the table below doesn’t lie. I’ve seen plenty of cynical challenges and counters against us killed all season. It’s been refreshing and I’ve applauded City’s new found ways of hacking opponents to halt their momentum.

 

[Phileas Fogg]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

Just considering some areas that might be holding us back, and I wonder if we are too nice, or soft, or even friendly - to be truly competitive at the top.

Ok, there are 2 clear exceptions, Baker and Flint, who dominate and intimidate in equal measure.  But what about the rest of the team? 

You could say that out of the rest, Wright, Pack, Smith, and Reid put themselves about, but do they go far enough?  Even Diedhoiu, the big man upfront, doesn't seem to give defenders as torrid time as you might expect.

This goes all the way up to Lee Johnson, who is the proverbial nice guy, always smiling with a happy go lucky shine to his eyes. Yes, Macca and no doubt Holden channel their inner beast if they need to, but does this go far enough?  Even Stephen Lansdown is always pictured with a charming grin.  An affable man if ever there was one.

Look at Wolves, savage creatures by name and nature, with their gaffer the type of man to fix you with his mean stare and cheer in your directors box with hostile passion at a last minute winner.

Now, I wouldn't want us to have the terrible discipline of Leeds for example, but a touch more aggression wouldn't go amiss, would it?  Think of Bryan failing to stop Ameobi, and the rest of the midfield merely running back with him, and dare I say it they may need to be a bit more uglier and brutal - could be the way to bring home the points in games like Bolton away, Millwall home, etc.

Perhaps in the Summer we need to bring in some more steel and street wise savvy to our playing squad.

 

 

No, I think we’re better than we have been in this area for ages. 

[Rich]

2 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

I'd like to call this out as balls.

- I don't think Bristol is particularly well off, most big cities aren't. One in four children in Bristol live in poverty. One in five elderly people do. Half of kids in Lawrence Hill are in poverty. It is a luverly area though.

- I don't think the supporters are a soft touch, certainly not in the circles I move in (as a club I can accept, we've been unprofessionally run for years although that appears to be changing).

- Supporters being reactive rather than proactive is almost universal in English football, and despite anomalies, I think it has nothing to do with the north or the south. Would like to know which teams in particular you deem to be more demanding and want to vocally encourage their team more.

- I think that the fact Bristol City and Bristol Rovers are two clubs in the top 10 (might be top 5, correct me) of banning orders I don't think the mellow argument cuts it!

I'd say that you don't really know this city, compared to other cities of comparable size or larger, this place is like utopia. Just because we have a few rougher areas within the city means nothing. We also have one of the wealthiest populations in the uk. The Barnet formula (used to determine funding across the country) always penalises Bristol, which ends up subsidising the northern cities because of it's collective wealth. It does mean that our poorer people suffer more than those up north, as our cost of living is higher, because of the wealthier people here. 

As for banning orders, all that means is, that our police and the clubs are less tolerant of any bad behaviour, what's the norm up north and other cities, (Cardiff), is frowned upon in our region and not tolerated. We have a small band of nutters, I was one, but, the rest of our crowd are quite well behaved with lots of quite nice supporters sat in their seats away from those rowdy types that swear. For example, I was talking to people from Portishead who complained about the youth of the area causing problems in the town, Portishead FFS. It was poor behaviour compared to what they were used to, positively upper classed to some areas of Bristol, which is likewise upper class when you head up north.

A little while back, I compared Bristol to Nottingham in size and wealth. One thing stood out which might indicate the difference in wealth. At the time, and we are going back to the eighties, Bristol had 110k households, with 43k being council. Nottingham had 100k households, with 86k being council owned. Our private ownership was therefore much higher, not substantial proof of wealth I admit but, a pointer to it. Our industry has been lighter than coal mining, steel, shipbuilding, or other heavy industries that are common the further north you go, with the odd exceptions. Our industries have been dominated by tobacco, similar to the cotton mills I suppose, aero engineering (well paid and technical), small docks compared to oop north, then lot's of commerce and middle income jobs, That's why we have areas like, Clifton, Redland, Cotham, KIngsdown, Stoke Bishop, Sneyd Park, WOT, Leigh Woods, Bishopston, Henleaze, Frenchay, large areas of relatively wealthy households, with little pockets interspersed amongst the rest. We are not a poor city when compared to any city of comparable size or larger, to the north, even our traditional working class areas are not that bad, compared to other cities.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion.

[Rich]

6 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

No, I think we’re better than we have been in this area for ages. 

We are better, with a little scope for improvement still.

[reddoh]

47 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

I'd like to call this out as balls.

- I don't think Bristol is particularly well off, most big cities aren't. One in four children in Bristol live in poverty. One in five elderly people do. Half of kids in Lawrence Hill are in poverty. It is a luverly area though.

- I don't think the supporters are a soft touch, certainly not in the circles I move in (as a club I can accept, we've been unprofessionally run for years although that appears to be changing).

- Supporters being reactive rather than proactive is almost universal in English football, and despite anomalies, I think it has nothing to do with the north or the south. Would like to know which teams in particular you deem to be more demanding and want to vocally encourage their team more.

- I think that the fact Bristol City and Bristol Rovers are two clubs in the top 10 (might be top 5, correct me) of banning orders I don't think the mellow argument cuts it!

I think that most words are used wrongly theses days poverty cannot afford food, not cannot afford fags and booze and feed the kids they should get their priorities right Sorry but that's just me having kept my family afloat for far longer than I thought I would have to.

[cidered abroad]

We are sitting at the bottom or top of the Fair Play Table, which is whichever way you look at it because of three red cards. 

FF for a trip, and Baker for a dubious one that could have been a yellow or even nothing. What/who was the other one? Korey Smith, I can't remember. 

But we're not in the same league as a Warnock team and plenty of others, with all their niggly stuff off the ball, their keepers who time waste for 95 minutes and the off the ball antics. After Bakes red card, QPR committed seven fouls in the next ten minutes, and at least two off the ball, and in my opinion, I am trying to get a reaction from our players and possibly a second red card. 

Cynical and devious we are definitely not. 

[Davefevs]

5 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

We are sitting at the bottom or top of the Fair Play Table, which is whichever way you look at it because of three red cards. 

FF for a trip, and Baker for a dubious one that could have been a yellow or even nothing. What/who was the other one? Korey Smith, I can't remember. 

But we're not in the same league as a Warnock team and plenty of others, with all their niggly stuff off the ball, their keepers who time waste for 95 minutes and the off the ball antics. After Bakes red card, QPR committed seven fouls in the next ten minutes, and at least two off the ball, and in my opinion, I am trying to get a reaction from our players and possibly a second red card. 

Cynical and devious we are definitely not. 

Taylor - rescinded 

[BS4 on Tour...]

1 hour ago, reddogkev said:

I actually had a sentence stating perhaps a bit more like Cardiff, but I had to delete it - almost made me feel sick!  But, yep, a bit more like them ...

The hypocrisy of this forum is laughable at times! Loads slag off Neil Warnock and his teams relentlessly, saying they are cheats, dirty, cynical teams, they feign injuries they are anti-football etc etc ....... and then there are calls for us to be more like them!!

 

[Red7]

1 hour ago, ZiderEyed said:

- I think that the fact Bristol City and Bristol Rovers are two clubs in the top 10 (might be top 5, correct me) of banning orders I don't think the mellow argument cuts it!

On the other hand, a handful of banning orders (many of which were doubtless for idiotic or cowardly acts) doesn't really do much to sway the argument the other way either. Wasn't the "mellow" bit directed more at the players? 

[ZiderEyed]

1 hour ago, Rich said:

I'd say that you don't really know this city, compared to other cities of comparable size or larger, this place is like utopia. Just because we have a few rougher areas within the city means nothing. We also have one of the wealthiest populations in the uk. The Barnet formula (used to determine funding across the country) always penalises Bristol, which ends up subsidising the northern cities because of it's collective wealth. It does mean that our poorer people suffer more than those up north, as our cost of living is higher, because of the wealthier people here. 

As for banning orders, all that means is, that our police and the clubs are less tolerant of any bad behaviour, what's the norm up north and other cities, (Cardiff), is frowned upon in our region and not tolerated. We have a small band of nutters, I was one, but, the rest of our crowd are quite well behaved with lots of quite nice supporters sat in their seats away from those rowdy types that swear. For example, I was talking to people from Portishead who complained about the youth of the area causing problems in the town, Portishead FFS. It was poor behaviour compared to what they were used to, positively upper classed to some areas of Bristol, which is likewise upper class when you head up north.

A little while back, I compared Bristol to Nottingham in size and wealth. One thing stood out which might indicate the difference in wealth. At the time, and we are going back to the eighties, Bristol had 110k households, with 43k being council. Nottingham had 100k households, with 86k being council owned. Our private ownership was therefore much higher, not substantial proof of wealth I admit but, a pointer to it. Our industry has been lighter than coal mining, steel, shipbuilding, or other heavy industries that are common the further north you go, with the odd exceptions. Our industries have been dominated by tobacco, similar to the cotton mills I suppose, aero engineering (well paid and technical), small docks compared to oop north, then lot's of commerce and middle income jobs, That's why we have areas like, Clifton, Redland, Cotham, KIngsdown, Stoke Bishop, Sneyd Park, WOT, Leigh Woods, Bishopston, Henleaze, Frenchay, large areas of relatively wealthy households, with little pockets interspersed amongst the rest. We are not a poor city when compared to any city of comparable size or larger, to the north, even our traditional working class areas are not that bad, compared to other cities.

Of course, you're entitled to your opinion.

Thank you for the reply mate, interesting stuff.

Having been around, but not as much as some other people daresay, I don't think Bristol is particularly wealthy, certainly not markedly so. I wouldn't say it's a poor city though, places like Toxteth and Birkenhead take the title of being "poor places" for me. The influx of people from London in recent years had changed that. It is perhaps a middle class City on the whole and I do agree with you in large parts.

I think what you say about banning orders is a good point though, one I'd not really considered.

I wonder what the level of inequality in Bristol is. It's got to be up there amongst cities in the UK. The differences in the way people enjoy the football at AG shows this for me, at least. I do like that football clubs take a broad sample across the entire community.

[ZiderEyed]

26 minutes ago, Red7 said:

On the other hand, a handful of banning orders (many of which were doubtless for idiotic or cowardly acts) doesn't really do much to sway the argument the other way either. Wasn't the "mellow" bit directed more at the players? 

If it was then apologies as that's not how I read it!

"Can we change it? I doubt that, it's built into our psyche to be mellow, unlike our noisier more demanding northern brothers"

[pillred]

1 hour ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

The hypocrisy of this forum is laughable at times! Loads slag off Neil Warnock and his teams relentlessly, saying they are cheats, dirty, cynical teams, they feign injuries they are anti-football etc etc ....... and then there are calls for us to be more like them!!

 

two calls.

[havanatopia]

4 hours ago, reddogkev said:

Perhaps in the Summer we need to bring in some more steel and street wise savvy to our playing squad.

Vinnie Jones, and he is a sort of tough nut, said James Milner was the steel Leeds needed. Is this what you meant?

[Red7]

7 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

"Can we change it?

On the playing side, I actually think we have plenty of steel, certainly in defence (Flint, Baker, Wright). Fan-wise, I would agree that the Gate needs to be louder, more vibrant, and even more intimidating in the eyes of the opposition. Compared to the East End in former times, the atmosphere is lacking despite the best efforts of a few in the corner. Opposition fans can barely hear us most of the time. Think this has been addressed in other threads, so apologies if I'm going over ground that has already been covered to death. 

[Phileas Fogg]

I must congratulate @reddogkev on yet another classic debate thread. Consistently delivers these threads every week.

23 minutes ago, Red7 said:

Opposition fans can barely hear us most of the time. Think this has been addressed in other threads, so apologies if I'm going over ground that has already been covered to death. 

I think having our noisy corner physically as far away from the away support has something to do with that. Feel the location of away support and home vocal support is a bit of a bodge job that wasn’t given the attention it needed.

Best solution for me is city fans behind both goals, current s82 in Atyeo with away fans in closest end of Lansdown stand. Hard to do in retrospect perhaps but that’s best solution for atmosphere in my opinion.

[reddogkev]

6 hours ago, havanatopia said:

Vinnie Jones, and he is a sort of tough nut, said James Milner was the steel Leeds needed. Is this what you meant?

Vinnie Jones or James Milner?  Hell I'd have them both in the summer.

Imagine Jones making his comeback in a City shirt at the age of, what is he now,  63?  The season would end up as a rubbish Guy Ritchie film with Jason Statham playing Lee Johnson

[RedM]

33 minutes ago, Red7 said:

On the playing side, I actually think we have plenty of steel, certainly in defence (Flint, Baker, Wright). Fan-wise, I would agree that the Gate needs to be louder, more vibrant, and even more intimidating in the eyes of the opposition. Compared to the East End in former times, the atmosphere is lacking despite the best efforts of a few in the corner. Opposition fans can barely hear us most of the time. Think this has been addressed in other threads, so apologies if I'm going over ground that has already been covered to death. 

I think fans are loud-ish when singing songs, but intimidating, no.

[Phileas Fogg]

@reddogkev why did you rubbish me 

[Red Army 75]

I would say a soft touch we are not. We are a possession based side with the ball . Pleasing on the eye which has brought us a lot of plaudits. Rightly so . Without the ball we are very energetic. In the opposition faces . Putting the foot or tackle in when needed. Certainly not been bullied by any opposition. Beat by Leeds not bullied. You can be physical without being like Cardiff. I’m enjoying how we play. And credit goes to LJ and his staff .