Ashton confirms that we are not chasing promotion

[Phileas Fogg]

26 minutes ago, Ivorguy said:

In this context, I mean adhering too rigidly to the five pillars when a little flexibility might pay dividends

As they say, even the best of plans in war don’t survive after first contact with the enemy 

We're clearly flexible on our transfer policy.

Look at last winter - we signed Djuric, Hegeler, Taylor and Giefer - none of which fitted the 'young with potential' criteria

[Bris Red]

1 hour ago, spudski said:

My thoughts exactly. Ashton and the Club have their head screwed on now, thank god. Not getting carried away. Remember when SL went crazy buying the likes of David James the season after we lost in the play offs. Got totally carried away with the hype.

Some fans complained that we did this, and spent on the short term. Sighting SL as making huge mistakes. He's learnt from those mistakes.

Now, when he's set a plan for the long term, some fans are expecting him to revert back to an old practice.

The bloke and Club can't win...I despair sometimes.

Who'd be an owner or manager...you can't win. Some fans have memories as short as our past strategy it seems.

David James wasn't bought the season after the play offs. The season after the play offs our only signings of any note were Gavin Williams and Nicky Maynard.. I still find the 2008 January and Summer windows as very frustrating opportunities missed to not kick the club considering we were massively on the up but there we go whats done is done..

My only complaint this window is not adressing the RB issue.. i also must say a slightly more proven option then Diony would have been favourable IMO. Especially when others around us strengthened in that area well.

[BRISTOL86]

Imagine going back to a time when signing Gavin Williams was noteworthy.

[Phileas Fogg]

1 minute ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Imagine going back to a time when signing Gavin Williams was noteworthy.

I thought he was actually quite a good player! Wily and clever, had a couple of excellent games if I remember correctly.

I believe he's a contact of ours now at Merthyr for loaning them players. 

[BRISTOL86]

1 minute ago, Phileas Fogg said:

I thought he was actually quite a good player! Wily and clever, had a couple of excellent games if I remember correctly.

I believe he's a contact of ours now at Merthyr for loaning them players. 

Yeah I actually thought he was reasonable to be fair! Just wasn’t a name to get people excited about another go at competing at the top end of the league!

[CyderInACan]

14 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Imagine going back to a time when signing Gavin Williams was noteworthy.

Didn't he go to the sags?

[CliftonCliff]

13 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Yeah I actually thought he was reasonable to be fair! Just wasn’t a name to get people excited about another go at competing at the top end of the league!

Gavin Williams was actually an extremely talented footballer who'd played in the PL for West Ham. Unfortunately, he also came into the Noble/Emmanuel-Thomas/Tomlin category in terms of application and translating that talent into consistent performances. Another vastly under-achieving player who might well look back and feel that he wasted his opportunities.

[BRISTOL86]

19 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

Didn't he go to the sags?

Yep!

12 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Gavin Williams was actually an extremely talented footballer who'd played in the PL for West Ham. Unfortunately, he also came into the Noble/Emmanuel-Thomas/Tomlin category in terms of application and translating that talent into consistent performances. Another vastly under-achieving player who might well look back and feel that he wasted his opportunities.

Definitley true! 

[spudski]

40 minutes ago, bris red said:

David James wasn't bought the season after the play offs. The season after the play offs our only signings of any note were Gavin Williams and Nicky Maynard.. I still find the 2008 January and Summer windows as very frustrating opportunities missed to not kick the club considering we were massively on the up but there we go whats done is done..

My only complaint this window is not adressing the RB issue.. i also must say a slightly more proven option then Diony would have been favourable IMO. Especially when others around us strengthened in that area well.

With the way the Club now work, I should imagine they have targeted a RB for the long term future.

With the way contracts work, maybe January wasn't the right time, to bring a short term fix.

Maybe we have something planned in the Summer...for the long term.

Eros will be 31 next season...no spring chicken, especially with our work rate.

Vyner is being developed as a CB. Taylor Moore as a RB...will be given a chance to prove himself or moved on I imagine.

[CyderInACan]

17 minutes ago, CliftonCliff said:

Gavin Williams was actually an extremely talented footballer who'd played in the PL for West Ham. Unfortunately, he also came into the Noble/Emmanuel-Thomas/Tomlin category in terms of application and translating that talent into consistent performances. Another vastly under-achieving player who might well look back and feel that he wasted his opportunities.

he was also partial to a late night tea from Enid's on North Street! #baller 

[downendcity]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

I'm confused as to how some people think mate...you can't buy your way to promotion in this league.

We are doing it totally right...buying to be competitive in this league.

If we were to go up, you then buy in the Summer...players that are Prem quality...not Championship. It's a totally different animal. Some are suited to Premiership others for the graft of the Championship.

Promotion to the Prem is like having a baby...there is never a right time, and you can plan as much as you want...it never works out or goes to how you imagine.

Michael McIndoe started another thread and he commented that to play a pressing game like ours requires players not just able to play to that system but also to have tremendous fitness. He goes on to say that Man City are where they are because they have the money to not just buy the best technical players but also this with the best fitness. IIRC he also commented about our drop in form and injuries and how difficult it is for players to sustain a pressing game throughout the season because of the physical pressure it puts them under and this this is perhaps a cause of those problems.

In view of this, and the fact that we know the way that LJ wants us to be playing, perhaps the transfer activity in January ( or lack of, according to those criticising us for "not going for it") was because the players that were available did not meet either or DNA test, were not able to play within our style pf play or did not have the levels of fitness required - or two or all of those attributes? 

Also, as others have suggested, there might have been players who were on our radar, but where we would have been in competition with other clubs with much greater financial power ( e.g. Huge to West Ham) where we would have compromised our finances or caused major problems with the wage structure, as far as our existing players are concerned, which could adversely affect the team spirit built up over the last year.

Sl has been understandably criticised in the past for "throwing money at it" and how that money has been wasted , when we were relegated with a huge and unmanageable wage bill for players with little or no value and who we struggled to get off the books. We now seem to have a well organised and coherent policy right through the club, in terms of the way we want the team to play, that we are looking to bring in players with the right DNA and who will fit with our playing style and that we either develop our ow players through the academy or look to bring in young players to develop either to benefit the team's progress or where we can see for a profit that can be used to reinvest into team development.

At the worst times last season I commented that many fans seemed to want instant success from a long term plan, when criticism was being levelled at players like O'Dowda, Brownhill and Patterson, but they have been vindicated this season as has LJ, by and large and the plan seems to progressing nicely, if not yet perfectly all the time. It seems to me that SL has got it pretty well bang on with the long term strategy he put in place and that we are now seeing in operation. This season seems to have proved that his judgement was the better one when fans were calling for LJ's head last season. In view of that, it might just be that SL has weighed up what is best for the club's long term future when it came to deciding transfers during January.

If any fans think that SL doesn't want Premier League football then they must be mad. The difference is that we can all make the decisions no problem when it is not our money and the club's future at stake.  SL however does carry the responsibility for the club and spending his money and I'm pretty sure he isn't going to want to see another £20m flushed down the pan because we went for it in January but it all went tits up thereafter and we end up back where we were 3 years ago.

 

[Ivorguy]

1 hour ago, Phileas Fogg said:

We're clearly flexible on our transfer policy.

Look at last winter - we signed Djuric, Hegeler, Taylor and Giefer - none of which fitted the 'young with potential' criteria

You make my point

We signed these on the down 

[Son of Fred]

3 hours ago, spudski said:

When people talk about 'Spending big' in January, with the aim of getting promoted, has it ever crossed their minds as to what budget we have, how much money is tied up in contracts, wages etc. Take FFP into account. None of us know what's in the budget, what's released at the end of the season, and what we have to play with next season.

It's not like going food shopping and buying up what you want regardless of budget.

Seems we shopped in Aldi during the whole of January-maybe just the one visit to 'Marks 'n 'Sparks could've raised the quality just a little..?

[The Batman]

i think some need to take back and look at this from a different angle.

Last season, we were on our worst run of games in the club's history and survived relegation thanks to an excellent start and a decent finish to the season.

Last July, I would have been happy with a mid table finish for the 17/18 season. It was an improvement on the season before. (anything above 4th bottom in all honesty)

To be this high up and to have stayed there is a great achievement considering the other clubs in this division. 

Yes it is a shame if we do fall away but some sense of perspective is needed.

Maybe the plan was to finish upper mid table this year, then push for promotion heavily for 2018/19. There has been a slight (ever so slight) sense of over achievement this season. Especially with the Cup run.

Ultimately, this little club has done wonders this season, it would be nice to finish in the Playoff's but we must not be disappointed if we do not finish there.

Wolves and Villa will go up, Fulham will win the playoffs. There is always a team that ends the season on a high and Fulham are that side.

[spudski]

22 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Seems we shopped in Aldi during the whole of January-maybe just the one visit to 'Marks 'n 'Sparks could've raised the quality just a little..?

Depends what stock is available in either shop and at what price and whether available, or whether they fit our style of football.

There obviously talented footballers out there...we see them , week in, week out. But it doesn't mean they would fit with our style of play.

It's finding the right fit that counts. Look at Tomlin...he would fit certain teams, undoubted talent, but no way was he a fit to how we play. If you get my drift.

[BRISTOL86]

30 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Seems we shopped in Aldi during the whole of January-maybe just the one visit to 'Marks 'n 'Sparks could've raised the quality just a little..?

Two young, clearly talented premier league youngsters and a striker courted by multiple bigger clubs is ‘shopping in Aldi’ ? 

Maybe the reason football is in the mess it is is partly down to the fact that people blindly pay over the odds for crap food in good packaging at M&S without checking to see if Aldi sell something equally tasty  

[EstoniaTallinnRed]

27 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

Seems we shopped in Aldi during the whole of January-maybe just the one visit to 'Marks 'n 'Sparks could've raised the quality just a little..?

Marks 'n' Sparks quality has been going downhill for years, but the prices haven't.   That's why they have had to close the majority of their stores.

[Major Isewater]

25 minutes ago, The Batman said:

i think some need to take back and look at this from a different angle.

Last season, we were on our worst run of games in the club's history and survived relegation thanks to an excellent start and a decent finish to the season.

Last July, I would have been happy with a mid table finish for the 17/18 season. It was an improvement on the season before. (anything above 4th bottom in all honesty)

To be this high up and to have stayed there is a great achievement considering the other clubs in this division. 

Yes it is a shame if we do fall away but some sense of perspective is needed.

Maybe the plan was to finish upper mid table this year, then push for promotion heavily for 2018/19. There has been a slight (ever so slight) sense of over achievement this season. Especially with the Cup run.

Ultimately, this little club has done wonders this season, it would be nice to finish in the Playoff's but we must not be disappointed if we do not finish there.

Wolves and Villa will go up, Fulham will win the playoffs. There is always a team that ends the season on a high and Fulham are that side.

I'm sorry but " must not be disappointed if we don't get there ( the play offs )",  to have been in the top six for two thirds of the season and then drop out at the business end you'd have to be wired up strangely not to be . 

If this is the attitude that the club take then we are never going to go up.

 

[Davefevs]

4 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

In my opinion this current policy is just as risky as the alternate of spending money when we are nearly there.

I keep coming back to the typical City approach to spending big, in our terms, i.e. Spending big when on the down and not when on the up.

How much do you think we would have needed to spend before the gamble / investment outweighed the risk of not going up?

And we might not have been the only team trying to do it.

Difficult one. 

4 hours ago, spudski said:

When people talk about 'Spending big' in January, with the aim of getting promoted, has it ever crossed their minds as to what budget we have, how much money is tied up in contracts, wages etc. Take FFP into account. None of us know what's in the budget, what's released at the end of the season, and what we have to play with next season.

It's not like going food shopping and buying up what you want regardless of budget.

You can get lovely tasting food from Aldi without going to Waitrose!  

Plus you can always nip across to St Etienne and borrow some food and if it tastes horrible you can return in without paying the full price, even though it might now be out of date. It’s ‘best before’ sticker said Summer 2017. 

[Jack Dawe]

7 hours ago, Ivorguy said:

Seems to me Ashton, talking about transfers, has made it crystal clear that the club isn't aiming for promotion this season. If it happens it happens approach, but club is firmly basing its summer planning on remaining in this league next season 

This sets out clearly, what many of us assumed, and explains January transfer window 

In November 2013, as SO'D toddled off and Cotts blustered in, I'm not sure we were planning on Championship football a year and a half later. Not with a half capacity ground with the builders in.

I know you are "running out of time" in which to see us back at the top once more - a position any reasonable sort will empathise with - but we are a pretty good shape as a club, compared to what we have been in my 40 years supporting.

I posted recently that we finished:

2014 - 12th in L1.

2015 - 1st in L1.

2016 - 18th in Championship.

2017 - 17th in Championship.

2018 - top half Championship? Possibly top ten. Possibly, even, still, top six.

 

It could be better, and it could be worse. But there is progression there. 4 years of improvement. Something to bear in mind as we ponder the disappointments of recent weeks/post Boxing Day.

[Andy082005]

4 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Who only has 12 months left? As for Dlint and Bryan, we’re always going to be a selling club if bigger come in. Just like about 88 other clubs in the league. Even the likes of Arsenal don’t keep their best players. 

Marlon Pack is one I know that. Not sure about Smith etc

I just dont buy all this sh*t about "long term plans" etc. I just think we have missed a massive, massive opportunity this January, and I for one will be disappointed if we dont finish in the top 6 now. 

I get all the "we would have been happy with top 10 at the start of the season"...but why settle for that when we made such a great and promising start.

We should have bought more Championship ready experience in January. Not spending at the right time is such a Bristol City thing to do

[GrahamC]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

With the way the Club now work, I should imagine they have targeted a RB for the long term future.

With the way contracts work, maybe January wasn't the right time, to bring a short term fix.

Maybe we have something planned in the Summer...for the long term.

Eros will be 31 next season...no spring chicken, especially with our work rate.

Vyner is being developed as a CB. Taylor Moore as a RB...will be given a chance to prove himself or moved on I imagine.

Absolutely.

I can see this summer being very quiet in terms of incoming signings.

We surely will look to add a second natural RB & also to resolve the striker situation (presumably firstly by deciding on the futures of Taylor & Engvall, then with a decision on whether or not we are interested in making the Diony deal a permanent one) but we could be making just 2 summer signings, I think.

[The Batman]

17 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

I'm sorry but " must not be disappointed if we don't get there ( the play offs )",  to have been in the top six for two thirds of the season and then drop out at the business end you'd have to be wired up strangely not to be . 

If this is the attitude that the club take then we are never going to go up.

 

 

But as @Jack Dawe alludes to above, we have improved every year for the last 4 years when looking at our final position in the league table. Soon to be 5, i dont imagine us finishing 18th or lower this season.

That is progress, especially the jump from last season to our achievements this. We are not historically a championship side, in my lifetime, we have spent most of it in what is League 1 today.

We can take what we have achieved this year, focus on what went wrong and improve accordingly. Make ourselves stronger for when we do get promoted to the Premier League. 

Think of Ipswich town, they've been stuck in this league for 15 years now. No promotions, no relegations. How sterile. At least when we got relegated, we had a promotion back up with a cup win as well. Something for the fans to enjoy.

Living in the Midlands, i know a lot of WBA fans, they cannot wait to get back to the Championship (most if not all have accepted relegation now), they will win some matches and be a force in the division. Getting promoted and losing every week does the club no good. It is not just us winning promotion to the Premier League, we have to consider sustaining our place once we get up there.

[BCFC_Dan]

It's not 2008. The squad is nothing like the one we had in 2008. The off-field setup is nothing like we had in 2008. The management is similar in name only.

The squad is on an upward curve. It wasn't supposed to be winning promotion this season and if it does that will be a bonus but also a problem.

If we don't go up this season then they will continue adding the right players and developing the ones we have to produce a stronger squad for next season, just as they did last season. The manager will learn from his mistakes and try to cut them out, just as he did last season.

There is no reason to fear an exodus of players and the club is set up in such a way that is can cope with losses anyway. This idea that it's "now or never" is insane and shows no awareness of how the club has been operating over the past few seasons.

[BRISTOL86]

28 minutes ago, Andy082005 said:

Marlon Pack is one I know that. Not sure about Smith etc

I just dont buy all this sh*t about "long term plans" etc. I just think we have missed a massive, massive opportunity this January, and I for one will be disappointed if we dont finish in the top 6 now. 

I get all the "we would have been happy with top 10 at the start of the season"...but why settle for that when we made such a great and promising start.

We should have bought more Championship ready experience in January. Not spending at the right time is such a Bristol City thing to do

I thought Ashton said the other day that we had no first teamers OOC in the summer (Pack summer ‘19 maybe?) 

I think it’s a tough one. Who (attainable targets only) with Championship ready experience was actually available in January that would have genuinely improved us?

Anyone at the wrong end of the table wouldn’t sell their best players and anyone challenging for the right end aren’t going to be selling to a promotion rival. This is why you can’t so great business in January. 

I think people need to accept our place a little and see that we are NOT a competitor to Derby/Villa/Wolves in the transfer food chain, it’s a fantasy to think we’re going to pay £30-£40k a week to snatch the same sort of player they’re targeting. Just not gonna happen under this regime.

Maybe after a few years of consistently challenging for the playoffs we will be competitive/attractive to that sort of player (is that even a desirable prospect??) and the wage budget will reflect that, but it’s evident that Lansdown isn’t just going to chuck sackfuls or cash at money grabbers who are only interested in coming here for a payday. 

After spending all season so far in the top six I’ll be as disappointed as anyone if we don’t see it through. But IMO if that is the case, it won’t be because we didn’t sign Jerome or Grabban or players of their ilk. 

[Natchfever]

15 minutes ago, BCFC_Dan said:

It's not 2008. The squad is nothing like the one we had in 2008. The off-field setup is nothing like we had in 2008. The management is similar in name only.

The squad is on an upward curve. It wasn't supposed to be winning promotion this season and if it does that will be a bonus but also a problem.

If we don't go up this season then they will continue adding the right players and developing the ones we have to produce a stronger squad for next season, just as they did last season. The manager will learn from his mistakes and try to cut them out, just as he did last season.

There is no reason to fear an exodus of players and the club is set up in such a way that is can cope with losses anyway. This idea that it's "now or never" is insane and shows no awareness of how the club has been operating over the past few seasons.

Agree with a lot of what you say but currently the squad is not on an upward curve, appear shagged out with players operating out of position, and the results this calendar year aren't encouraging. I felt the squad could have been strengthened more and if we finish 12th then ok its still been a decent season. However, i'm not entirely convinced that this dip in form is going to be arrested anytime soon with the squad be have so its early to talk about ongoing progress but hope i'm wrong on that score.

[BRISTOL86]

5 minutes ago, Loon plage said:

Agree with a lot of what you say but currently the squad is not on an upward curve, appear shagged out with players operating out of position, and the results this calendar year aren't encouraging. I felt the squad could have been strengthened more and if we finish 12th then ok its still been a decent season. However, i'm not entirely convinced that this dip in form is going to be arrested anytime soon with the squad be have so its early to talk about ongoing progress but hope i'm wrong on that score.

We are having the best season in a decade and have had players out of position all season (Bailey RB, Reid ST etc)

Its a run of poor form. It happens. We’re not a bad side overnight. Other sides had theirs earlier in the season whilst we were on fire. 

It would be typical of the championship for us to go and get a couple of good results now against Leeds/Fulham/Cardiff and get back to talking about challenging for 2nd. 

Not saying it’ll happen (we can hope) but surely by now everyone has realised that if there’s one predictable thing about the Championship, it’s how pointless it is trying to predict it!

[Major Isewater]

40 minutes ago, The Batman said:

 

But as @Jack Dawe alludes to above, we have improved every year for the last 4 years when looking at our final position in the league table. Soon to be 5, i dont imagine us finishing 18th or lower this season.

That is progress, especially the jump from last season to our achievements this. We are not historically a championship side, in my lifetime, we have spent most of it in what is League 1 today.

We can take what we have achieved this year, focus on what went wrong and improve accordingly. Make ourselves stronger for when we do get promoted to the Premier League. 

Think of Ipswich town, they've been stuck in this league for 15 years now. No promotions, no relegations. How sterile. At least when we got relegated, we had a promotion back up with a cup win as well. Something for the fans to enjoy.

Living in the Midlands, i know a lot of WBA fans, they cannot wait to get back to the Championship (most if not all have accepted relegation now), they will win some matches and be a force in the division. Getting promoted and losing every week does the club no good. It is not just us winning promotion to the Premier League, we have to consider sustaining our place once we get up there.

I' m more interested in what we're doing than what we did .

There are no guarantees that we would stay up or equally get relegated if we made it to the Prem.

Baggies fans may well be bored now . I remember Charlton fans being bored once , remind where they are now.

WBA are not necessarily a blue print and it's not given that we would get beaten every week .

It would be nice to find out though wouldn't it ? 

[spudski]

58 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Absolutely.

I can see this summer being very quiet in terms of incoming signings.

We surely will look to add a second natural RB & also to resolve the striker situation (presumably firstly by deciding on the futures of Taylor & Engvall, then with a decision on whether or not we are interested in making the Diony deal a permanent one) but we could be making just 2 summer signings, I think.

I suppose it depends on what League we are playing in Graham.

If we don't go up...I'm the opposite to you. I can see a fair bit of movement both ways. However I suppose it depends on whether players want to stay or not and give it a go again next season.

I should imagine there will be interest from other teams for some of our players, both from the Prem, Championship and abroad.

Some might want to try their chances in the Prem, others for more money at 'bigger Clubs.

Unfortunately it's the nature of the beast.

In a perfect world we would hope they would stay.

However...I wouldn't be surprised if there was interest in the likes of Flint, Bryan, Reid, Pack, Brownhill, Mags, Taylor, Gus.

Then Kent and Woodrow going back. Will Diony work out? etc.

Any movement will depend on a lot of things happening.

 

[Angmering Red]

The way some people are going on you would think we have blown the playoffs already, when I last looked, despite a poor run, we are in 6th, 3 pts and a better goal difference (albeit 1 goal) than Preston in 7th.  as has been said many times by many people. the Championship is unpredictable, just as we expected to have beaten Sunderland and probably Bolton, Fulham and Derby fans would also have expected wins rather than draws on Saturday. As an earlier poster said, it would be just like us to do well in  the next 3 games and start a good run.