Another American school shooting!!

[nebristolred]

1 hour ago, Red_Wizard said:

 

Chicago has the toughest gun laws, yet the highest homicide rate. Laws will change nothing. 

In the 18 years before 1996, Australia had 13 gun massacres. In 1996 the LAW changed to prohibit guns. They haven't had one since.

Or is that just coincidence?

[One Team In Keynsham]

1 hour ago, Red_Wizard said:

 

Chicago has the toughest gun laws, yet the highest homicide rate. Laws will change nothing. 

Aside from Chicago not having the toughest gun laws, thanks in part to VP Pence, the neighbouring state of Indiana has some of the weakest gun laws, and, well, they have things called roads connecting the two.

[IAmNick]

2 hours ago, Red_Wizard said:

And what if it increased gun deaths by a further 5%? 

Gun control will do absolutely nothing. It amazes me how people from this country can compare the UK laws to the that of the  USA.

As much as I would love to see a total ban on Firearms in the USA, and the homicide rates to drop big time, it’s not reality or never will be. 

I’m man enough to say I also shed a tear this morning reading into the background the victims, and how some of them were killed by that monster . Something does need to be done, but gun control is not the solution.

[Kid in the Riot]

2 hours ago, Red_Wizard said:

And what if it increased gun deaths by a further 5%? 

Gun control will do absolutely nothing. It amazes me how people from this country can compare the UK laws to the that of the  USA.

As much as I would love to see a total ban on Firearms in the USA, and the homicide rates to drop big time, it’s not reality or never will be. 

I’m man enough to say I also shed a tear this morning reading into the background the victims, and how some of them were killed by that monster . Something does need to be done, but gun control is not the solution.

Clearly a blanket ban on gun sales in the US is pie in the sky currently, however that's what they should be working towards. It's what Obama at least tried. Trump on the other hand begins to relax gun laws and surprise, surprise these events will continue until the end of time.

Of course gun control is the solution, arming everyone from teachers to homeless war vets certainly isn't.

[joe jordans teeth]

8 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Clearly a blanket ban on gun sales in the US is pie in the sky currently, however that's what they should be working towards. It's what Obama at least tried. Trump on the other hand begins to relax gun laws and surprise, surprise these events will continue until the end of time.

Of course gun control is the solution, arming everyone from teachers to homeless war vets certainly isn't.

Have they not tried something like the knife amnesty we have because that seems to be working a treat over here 

[The Coach]

1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Clearly a blanket ban on gun sales in the US is pie in the sky currently, however that's what they should be working towards. It's what Obama at least tried. Trump on the other hand begins to relax gun laws and surprise, surprise these events will continue until the end of time.

Of course gun control is the solution, arming everyone from teachers to homeless war vets certainly isn't.

Here is the amount of legislation passed during the Obama administration regarding gun control expanding restriction on gun owners. Back in 2008 when Obama was in the house, a filibuster proof Senate of 60 didn't pass any gun legislation. He also ran on a campaign on tougher gun laws, and promised to get this done within the first year. The number of Obama gun laws that made it through Congress during his two terms in office comes in at only two, and neither placed any additional restrictions on gun owners. In fact,  the two laws signed by Obama actually expanded the rights of gun owners in the US. Attempts to limit the size of gun magazines, expand background checks of buyers, and ban gun sales to buyers on terrorism watch lists all fail to pass under Obama.

What we can agree on these events will continue, but this country has no right to point the finger at the US while we still have issues with ISIS followers, and a large terror watchlist ourselves in which we do nothing until such attacks take place. 

 

There will always be something going on unfortunately. 

[Kid in the Riot]

42 minutes ago, Red_Wizard said:

Here is the amount of legislation passed during the Obama administration regarding gun control expanding restriction on gun owners. Back in 2008 when Obama was in the house, a filibuster proof Senate of 60 didn't pass any gun legislation. He also ran on a campaign on tougher gun laws, and promised to get this done within the first year. The number of Obama gun laws that made it through Congress during his two terms in office comes in at only two, and neither placed any additional restrictions on gun owners. In fact,  the two laws signed by Obama actually expanded the rights of gun owners in the US. Attempts to limit the size of gun magazines, expand background checks of buyers, and ban gun sales to buyers on terrorism watch lists all fail to pass under Obama.

What we can agree on these events will continue, but this country has no right to point the finger at the US while we still have issues with ISIS followers, and a large terror watchlist ourselves in which we do nothing until such attacks take place. 

 

There will always be something going on unfortunately. 

Sorry, but at least Obama TRIED that's the point. The messages sent out by Obama and Trump on gun control couldn't be any different. The direction of travel does not look good...

Our 'issues' with ISIS have nothing to do with US gun control but if you want to raise it then I would observe that as and when ISIS next decide to carry out an attack in the States the casualties will be significant given access to firearms. If the London bridge attackers had been in America no doubt they'd have been armed with kalishnikovs instead of knifes.

[Lrrr]

The US is averaging a mass shooting every 60 hours so far in 2018, only in the US would people of influence then call for more guns for 'safety'

[Maesknoll Red]

On 15/02/2018 at 11:31, myol'man said:

This the 18th school shooting in USA already THIS YEAR! 

This site debunks that to some extent.

https://www.dailywire.com/node/27165

[Nogbad the Bad]

I fully understand why these horiffic events are widely reported on British media but why they then go on to obsess about them for days on end is beyond me.

We can't affect what happens in America and, bluntly, what they do over there is none of our business.

Pontificating about it from 4,250 miles away achieves absolutely nothing.

Meanwhile , 80 fatal stabbings in London last year and already another 12 since the New Year........

 

[screech]

1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I fully understand why these horiffic events are widely reported on British media but why they then go on to obsess about them for days on end is beyond me.

We can't affect what happens in America and, bluntly, what they do over there is none of our business.

Pontificating about it from 4,250 miles away achieves absolutely nothing.

Meanwhile , 80 fatal stabbings in London last year and already another 12 since the New Year........

 

Exactly, I'm more worried about the horrific knife culture that we have here now, especially amongst young people.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

This sadly tells you everything that you need to know about why using Trumps words here the USA can be a shithole.

 

[Tipps69]

3 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

This sadly tells you everything that you need to know about why using Trumps words here the USA can be a shithole.

 

******* hell!! When you see it like that it’s even more shocking than when someone tells you or you read a piece that tells you what people of America are allowed to do & what they’re not allowed to do.

[Tipps69]

I’ve been watching a documentary series on Sky Atlantic called Active Shooter: America Under Fire. On Monday nights.

Last nights was the Santa Monica College shooting of 2013 and they show you the CCTV footage of the incidents & give you interviews with witnesses, the police, family & teachers etc but the bit that stood out from last nights program & it’s something that I’m not up on as I don’t have much knowledge of this 2nd Amendment & the Americans rights to bare arms but this individual basically purchased & made something that is called a ghost gun from the internet, he purchased the drills, bits & tools to basically make his own weapon & this is part of the 2nd Amendment to make their own guns! And if you own a 3D printer, you can easily find the necessary program online to make your own weapons via your 3D printer so you don’t even have to go to a gun store to purchase a weapon now.

The individual who carried out the Santa Monica College shooting was 23, had shot his Dad & brother dead in the family home before setting it on fire, hijacked a woman in her car & forced her to drive him, on the way to the college he opened fire at a bus full of passengers & then went on to the college.

When police searched his property, they found a letter from 2 years previous banning him from purchasing guns & he had spent a year in a detention centre because he had already told the police he wanted to go to his school to shoot at least 2 people because he had been bullied but he was still released from the detention centre to go on & carry out his wish & kill!

There really is no control Stateside!

[Super]

And Trumps new plan is to get more people carrying guns (teachers) 

[Globe Trotter]

34 minutes ago, Super said:

And Trumps new plan is to get more people carrying guns (teachers) 

Might as well arm the pupils too! 

[Gibbs]

6 hours ago, Super said:

And Trumps new plan is to get more people carrying guns (teachers) 

This has been mentioned and happening for years now. What a sad state of affairs that you might have to be armed to teach children.

The second amendment is based on the British right to bear arms (1689). In the same manner it is "as allowed by law" giving the government flexibility in what "the right to bear arms" actually means. As we don't have a constitution our law making has always been flexible and we started regulating firearms after the first world war when it was obvious that a trained population with Vickers machine guns isn't a great idea.

The problem for America is that the lack of action over the decades has created such a divide that it will be hugely unpopular whatever a government does. The longer it goes on the harder it gets. 

In an overly simplistic outlook I think they should have the right to bear muskets - which was probably the intention at the time. I'd like to see someone try a massacre with a musket.

[LondonBristolian]

Someone made an interesting point yesterday that I hadn't considered. People often deride young people in America and call them snowflakes, over-sensitive and claim they have no real problems to worry about BUT they are the only generation in the only country that I can think of that have spent their entire time in school in a culture where there is a realistic possibility that, at any moment, an irate schoolmate or local person in their community could burst in and gun them all down with an assault rifle. Which is a terrying thought.

You have to give huge credit to how articulate and confident the survivors from last week's massacre have been in speaking out, and you can only have sheer contempt for those who have tried to insinuate various conspiracy theories about them. What I found remarkable was the head of the NRA claiming elites do not care about safety in schools. He is right to a degree of course - in that he himself is a wealthy elite figure at the head of an organise spending vast fortunes lobbying and briefing against gun regulation - but it is ridiculous that the Head of NRA somehow perceives himself as not being an "elite".

Changing gun culture in America is not going to happen overnight. But change will come in time. Realistically, whatever anyone thinks about people having handguns, there is absolutely no justification why anyone should own an assault rifle and, even if you chose to license some people to use them, it would be utterly reasonable to insist they are stored only at shooting clubs and never allowed to be taken offsite. 

Arming teachers is never going to be a solution. For a start, schools in America are struggling to afford basic educational materials. Who the hell is going to pay for weapons? Secondly the shooter will always have the element of surprise and, even beyond that, all it will lead to is a culture where it is perceived to be the teacher's fault if they fail to stop a shooting and the simple outcome of that will be that nobody wants to be teachers. Plus, it is one thing asking people with military or police training to carry guns. But if you arm teachers you are basically asking civilians, who have got into education to help people to learn, to shoot to kill. Some will be terrified to do it, others will have to cope with the consequences of the fact they have had to shoot, in many cases, a child in order to save other children. And clearly they are not going to have reason to shoot until the shooting has started - perhaps less children will die but there are still likely to be some children who die each time someone tries a massacre in a school.

There is of course the argument that, if the teachers are armed, then the shooter won't try it in the first place. This is a nonsensical argument for two reasons

1) Most school shootings end with the shooter being shot. If the shooter wanted to live, they probably wouldn't do the shooting. If they don't want to live, teachers being armed is no deterrent.

2) The only other plausible scenario would be it deters said students from shooting in schools. So perhaps it will lead to a drop in school shootings but only because of a rise in shootings in cinemas or shopping malls or somewhere else instead.

Having guards at schools is going to have similar outcomes. It simply will not stop shootings and the only way you can think it will be is by abandoning logic completely. 

The bottom line is it's all very well talking about illegal guns being taken into the country but the Las Vegas shooting was done with a legally owned weapon, as far as I have seen this was done with a legally owned weapon, I think Sandy Hook was done with a legally owned weapon. Over 1000 people die each year in America from accidental shootings alone. Again, these are done with legal weapons. Restricting gun ownership is not going to solve everything but it is going to have an impact in the problem.

What's more, however you dice it up, the argument of gun ownership advocates is a simple one - "The right to own guns is so important to me that 17 dead people in a school is an acceptable price to pay for it." There is no getting around that is a morally unconscionable argument.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

10 hours ago, Super said:

And Trumps new plan is to get more people carrying guns (teachers) 

You are correct it's typically ridiculous, like the American pastor who said more parishioner's should take guns to church to prevent shootings at churches.

But Trump probably got one thing correct pointing the finger at the FBI for not taking the information on this kid that they were given in January seriously.

[Lanterne Rouge]

42 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

You are correct it's typically ridiculous, like the American pastor who said more parishioner's should take guns to church to prevent shootings at churches.

But Trump probably got one thing correct pointing the finger at the FBI for not taking the information on this kid that they were given in January seriously.

TBF to them they probably get dozens of reports like that every day given the amount of loons in the country.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

1 minute ago, Red Right Hand said:

TBF to them they probably get dozens of reports like that every day given the amount of loons in the country.

Maybe so but this time it actually happened and they appear to have done **** all about it and now they have to explain why, that is the nature of their job, bearing in mind Trump also said something along the lines of "if the FBI had done their job and followed up on the information they were given instead of trying to prove my imaginary links with Russia, this could have been prevented", they have given Trump an out here IMO.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

20 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Maybe so but this time it actually happened and they appear to have done **** all about it and now they have to explain why, that is the nature of their job, bearing in mind Trump also said something along the lines of "if the FBI had done their job and followed up on the information they were given instead of trying to prove my imaginary links with Russia, this could have been prevented", they have given Trump an out here IMO.

Edit:- And I see the NRA have now conveniently jumped onto the blame the FBI bandwagon.

[PHILINFRANCE]

6 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Someone made an interesting point yesterday that I hadn't considered. People often deride young people in America and call them snowflakes, over-sensitive and claim they have no real problems to worry about BUT they are the only generation in the only country that I can think of that have spent their entire time in school in a culture where there is a realistic possibility that, at any moment, an irate schoolmate or local person in their community could burst in and gun them all down with an assault rifle. Which is a terrying thought.

Arming teachers is never going to be a solution. For a start, schools in America are struggling to afford basic educational materials. Who the hell is going to pay for weapons? Secondly the shooter will always have the element of surprise and, even beyond that, all it will lead to is a culture where it is perceived to be the teacher's fault if they fail to stop a shooting and the simple outcome of that will be that nobody wants to be teachers. Plus, it is one thing asking people with military or police training to carry guns. But if you arm teachers you are basically asking civilians, who have got into education to help people to learn, to shoot to kill. Some will be terrified to do it, others will have to cope with the consequences of the fact they have had to shoot, in many cases, a child in order to save other children. And clearly they are not going to have reason to shoot until the shooting has started - perhaps less children will die but there are still likely to be some children who die each time someone tries a massacre in a school.

 

Going off at a slight tangent, I know, but I am convinced this is one of the reasons school 'adventure' trips are less common now than when I was in school.

What teacher in their right mind, trained in e.g. history and geography only, would want to take a bunch of children on a geology trip to Dartmoor with the risk that, due to his lack of expert knowledge of local weather conditions and consequent failure to account for same, he might potentially be found liable for their injury or even death in the event that they are hit by a freak storm?  

[The Constant Rabbit]

It now emerges the FBI and sherrifs dept had been alerted and investigated 39 - yes THIRTY NINE times this guy - and still he kept his guns.

It also emerged that a deputy sheriff was on site for 4 minutes of the 6 minute rampage - and chose not to enter the building.

What a catastrophic shambles - the intel alone (including Cruz own family) warranted a long spell in a hospital for major mental health support.

The Deputy situation - well the NRA and Trump (arm a teacher in every class!!) - look exactly as well all knew  - $$$ grabbers in thrall to the 2nd amendment and their massive, massive voting power.

As for the now-retired deputy - I'm really torn:

1) Yes it was his job, and maybe he should have gone in (at sandy Hook, Columbine et al - Police were told to wait until shooting stopped) - but "School Cops" are generally near retirement, and not beat cops. Scot Peterson (wtf is it with that name) was 54 and had been a school cop for a long time, so probably never drawn his weapon for years, if ever.

2) I'd like to think I'd take a step inside - but with an 8 round mag 0.32 pistol vs an AR-15 (Armalite 800 rounds per minute) - and no body armour, I'm not so sure I could. There are countless tales of Police, army, security etc who just freeze.

I think this guy who was on all other counts of Police work, competent, didn't feel like committing suicide. 

I'd be surprised if he didn't eventually though.

No back-up, out-gunned alone against a young super-fit man with a military grade assault weapon and armed with a bog-standard pistol?

I just don't know what I would have done.

We all like to think we would be heroes, but this is the real world.

When all is said and done, he is alive with a full pension and will just hide away until forgotten about.

The 17 dead, are still dead.

America is frikked-up.

[LondonBristolian]

9 hours ago, SX227 said:

It now emerges the FBI and sherrifs dept had been alerted and investigated 39 - yes THIRTY NINE times this guy - and still he kept his guns.

It also emerged that a deputy sheriff was on site for 4 minutes of the 6 minute rampage - and chose not to enter the building.

What a catastrophic shambles - the intel alone (including Cruz own family) warranted a long spell in a hospital for major mental health support.

The Deputy situation - well the NRA and Trump (arm a teacher in every class!!) - look exactly as well all knew  - $$$ grabbers in thrall to the 2nd amendment and their massive, massive voting power.

As for the now-retired deputy - I'm really torn:

1) Yes it was his job, and maybe he should have gone in (at sandy Hook, Columbine et al - Police were told to wait until shooting stopped) - but "School Cops" are generally near retirement, and not beat cops. Scot Peterson (wtf is it with that name) was 54 and had been a school cop for a long time, so probably never drawn his weapon for years, if ever.

2) I'd like to think I'd take a step inside - but with an 8 round mag 0.32 pistol vs an AR-15 (Armalite 800 rounds per minute) - and no body armour, I'm not so sure I could. There are countless tales of Police, army, security etc who just freeze.

I think this guy who was on all other counts of Police work, competent, didn't feel like committing suicide. 

I'd be surprised if he didn't eventually though.

No back-up, out-gunned alone against a young super-fit man with a military grade assault weapon and armed with a bog-standard pistol?

I just don't know what I would have done.

We all like to think we would be heroes, but this is the real world.

When all is said and done, he is alive with a full pension and will just hide away until forgotten about.

The 17 dead, are still dead.

America is frikked-up.

All this part in bold makes you think about what would REALLY happen with armed teachers. Yes, it is possible they'd heroically swoop in and save the day but it is equally - and arguably more - possible that

a) they too would freeze in that situation.

b) the gunman, who would have the element of surprise, a better weapon and be unhindered my worries about the risk of loss of life if he made a mistake, would quickly shoot and skill the teacher.

c) the teacher would accidentally shoot someone by mistake

or

d) even if the teacher did succeed in shooting the gunman, the police would swoop in minutes later, see the teacher stood over the dead shooter holding a gun, mistake the teacher for the shooter and shoot the teacher dead.

There's so many things more likely to go wrong than right and, if an armed guard cannot summon up the courage to go in there, it is unrealistic to put a teacher in that situation and expect a different result...

[Tipps69]

11 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

All this part in bold makes you think about what would REALLY happen with armed teachers. Yes, it is possible they'd heroically swoop in and save the day but it is equally - and arguably more - possible that

a) they too would freeze in that situation.

b) the gunman, who would have the element of surprise, a better weapon and be unhindered my worries about the risk of loss of life if he made a mistake, would quickly shoot and skill the teacher.

c) the teacher would accidentally shoot someone by mistake

or

d) even if the teacher did succeed in shooting the gunman, the police would swoop in minutes later, see the teacher stood over the dead shooter holding a gun, mistake the teacher for the shooter and shoot the teacher dead.

There's so many things more likely to go wrong than right and, if an armed guard cannot summon up the courage to go in there, it is unrealistic to put a teacher in that situation and expect a different result...

And what happens to 63 year-old Glady’s, she’s gone from a kind hearted granny to a gun toating potential killer in one easy swoop! Some people simply don’t / won’t want to be armed to simply teach kids.

Over here, not all police are armed, they are asked first of all if they are prepared to carry a weapon before firearms training is even considered so what happens if no teachers stateside are prepared to be armed? They get sacked? They don’t have a chance of moving into teaching in the first place? What happens if a child becomes a problem & a teacher overreacts & pulls the trigger on a misbehaving youth or if a problem student manages to get hold of a teachers firearm during a fit of rage?

Surely they simply can’t expect every teacher to be prepared to carry arms, will the extra responsibility come with a pay rise?

As you say, there are just so many variables for this to be viable?!?

[LondonBristolian]

On 2/16/2018 at 15:42, Red_Wizard said:

 

Chicago has the toughest gun laws, yet the highest homicide rate. Laws will change nothing. 

Not born out by the stats, I'm afraid.

The top ten worse states for gun deaths are Alaska, Alabama, Louisiana, Mississippi, Oklahoma, Missouri, Montana, New Mexico, Arkansas and South Carolina. Six of those ten have "Stand your ground laws" and none of Louisiana, Mississippi, Alabama, Tenessee or Arkansas ask for license, permit or registration to carry a gun. Montana have the strictest gun laws out of the ten but none of them are strict per se.

The top ten lowest rates of gun deaths are - in reverse order -  Washington, Maine, California, Minnesota, New Jersey, Connecticut, Hawaii, New York, Rhode Island and Massachussets. At least seven of those have strict gun laws.

https://www.safehome.org/resources/gun-laws-and-deaths/

If you look at the stats, laws around gun ownership change one thing. They save lives.

[Gibbs]

So an armed deputy (who I will assume is trained for this) decides not to risk his life and now has police guarding his home (to stop a backlash I imagine).

• What happens when a teacher does this? Are they to blame? 
• What happens when a teacher goes on the rampage? 
• With teachers armed there will be more guns in schools.
• What happens when a kid uses a teachers gun?

etc etc. I can see the "arm the teachers" line of thought going very wrong if it isn't trialled.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

9 minutes ago, Gibbs said:

So an armed deputy (who I will assume is trained for this) decides not to risk his life and now has police guarding his home (to stop a backlash I imagine).

• What happens when a teacher does this? Are they to blame? 
• What happens when a teacher goes on the rampage? 
• With teachers armed there will be more guns in schools.
• What happens when a kid uses a teachers gun?

etc etc. I can see the "arm the teachers" line of thought going very wrong if it isn't trialled.

The armed deputy took an oath and it would appear that he failed to uphold that oath.

And if the ridiculous idea of arming teachers is taken up they will presumably need to be trained and take an oath.

But in both cases they are volunteers.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

At the end of the day America is getting the typical non sensical expected Trump response, sadly though however the total lack of action by the FBI over this matter has given him an opportunity to convince the gullible American electorate that this tragedy could have been stopped by the FBI and that gives him breathing space to protect his 'friends' at the NRA, whatever the gathering outrage might be at this moment in time, but that is of course until the next time and we know sadly but predictably that there will be a next time.