Interesting talk at Senior Reds today

[bpexile]

6 hours ago, Curr Avon said:

Well, he knows his plaice.

You'll get battered on ere wiv them jokes.

[Super]

14 hours ago, RED4LIFE said:

I won't believe it until it's on the OS.

It will be in 18/12.

[underhanded]

Due to my work I have a bit of contact with the sport scientists at BCFC and at other clubs and it is really amazing how much work they put in on the training pitch and on match days etc. You'd also be surprised at the clubs that utilise these type of technologies - whilst not as advanced this type of thing goes right down to League 2, and even a couple of national league clubs as well! Whilst we clearly have the investment in some pretty nifty hardware, the basic elements of this type of work can be done with a laptop and a few inexpensive sensors, so this has really began to permeate the game at all levels.

I also know we use drones for some of our analysis, which to me seems pretty awesome

Fascinating stuff!

[underhanded]

- Also a lot of this analysis is also happening right through the academy, so we're obtaining the same data and statistics on U14s and the like

[spudski]

12 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I was happy with my description   .

Seriously though, it is amazing that these things are broken down, measured etc.  Marginal gains an’ all that!

Used to be 'quick brain' or 'quick feet' :laugh:

[Davefevs]

38 minutes ago, spudski said:

Used to be 'quick brain' or 'quick feet'

Neither in my case!

[1bristolcity]

1 hour ago, underhanded said:

- Also a lot of this analysis is also happening right through the academy, so we're obtaining the same data and statistics on U14s and the like

Is it? Sort of takes the stuffing out of the game really, go analyze this and come back to see if I can actually kick a ball without falling over. Nope game is gone, gone for ever, it still make s me feel sick that some players are on a 1/4 million pounds a week...like I say the game is gone, blame Sky and the greedy suits that seek to fleece the fans.The game has never been further from the real fans that supported the club through a lifetime, I talk to a lot of football fans and the feeling is much the same they feel disconnected from the game.

I am sure thee kids that monitor all this feel they have the best job in the world, and I am sure the seniors felt the same as me in truth load of bollards.

  

[Robbored]

19 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

Is it? Sort of takes the stuffing out of the game really, go analyze this and come back to see if I can actually kick a ball without falling over. Nope game is gone, gone for ever, it still make s me feel sick that some players are on a 1/4 million pounds a week...like I say the game is gone, blame Sky and the greedy suits that seek to fleece the fans.The game has never been further from the real fans that supported the club through a lifetime, I talk to a lot of football fans and the feeling is much the same they feel disconnected from the game.

I am sure thee kids that monitor all this feel they have the best job in the world, and I am sure the seniors felt the same as me in truth load of bollards.

  

A tired argument that, money spoiling the game................

It's the money that's led to the increase in technology which in turn is hoped to improve results.Thats not a negative imv.

[Major Isewater]

18 hours ago, Bristol Rob said:

The fact no one has yet been able to publish a paper saying 'this works' says a lot.

You have to wonder how much snake oil the inventor of this sticky tape shifted to be able to get this in to production!

Ah , snake oil . 

Production is down this year now that Redknapp has left Brum there is less demand.

 

[Major Isewater]

14 hours ago, Cowshed said:

What you are highlighting regarding Baldock is receiving techniques, transition, initiation, acceleration patterns. 

So players can be quick at game related tasks then due to cognitive/motor control/perceptual;/physical constraints be considered slow (very) at other aspects of the game. 

 

 

Nail on the head .

 

 

[Major Isewater]

53 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

Neither in my case!

Centre Back ? 

[underhanded]

13 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

Is it? Sort of takes the stuffing out of the game really, go analyze this and come back to see if I can actually kick a ball without falling over. Nope game is gone, gone for ever, it still make s me feel sick that some players are on a 1/4 million pounds a week...like I say the game is gone, blame Sky and the greedy suits that seek to fleece the fans.The game has never been further from the real fans that supported the club through a lifetime, I talk to a lot of football fans and the feeling is much the same they feel disconnected from the game.

I am sure thee kids that monitor all this feel they have the best job in the world, and I am sure the seniors felt the same as me in truth load of bollards.

  

Struggling to see how the progress made in sport science and performance analysis has anything to do with the feeling of disconnect from the game? I'd say that's caused by the rampant commercialisation of the sport, the extortionate ticketing, the 'Disney-fying' of the math day experience, astronomical wages etc. 

Sport science and analysis is relatively inexpensive compared to all these things, and happens in far lass commercial sports such as track cycling, handball etc. There is a whole field of science, academic theory and knowledge dedicated to it, with people just as driven and hungry as our footie players looking to succeed, and succeed for the team within it. 

I'd embrace it, as it'll only do great things for the sport!

[southvillekiddy]

There is definitely a significant change at our Club and this is a big part of it because it involves more fully. Ethos in the team is crucial for promotion.

Always hoped that if we are serious about Premiership football that my Club would use Premiership methods, brilliant that this is happening.

You see the same approach with what the Physio says. The whole deal has to be impressive to potential new signings

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Neither in my case!

I was a very poor mans version of Jan Molby :laugh:

Used to always get  'he's got surprisingly quick feet for a big lad' :laugh:

I had a quicker brain though...I feel for the pros who inherited genes that only allow you to get to a certain level of fitness. I know how it feels.

[Davefevs]

33 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

Centre Back ? 

Yep!

15 minutes ago, spudski said:

I was a very poor mans version of Jan Molby

Used to always get  'he's got surprisingly quick feet for a big lad'

I had a quicker brain though...I feel for the pros who inherited genes that only allow you to get to a certain level of fitness. I know how it feels.

I often think "who would I relate to" and always struggle to find a decent match.

I was good in the air, a disciplined marker, quicker than most people thought, but I wasn’t a good footballer at the level I played, nor was I very aggressive for a CB.

[Nogbad the Bad]

17 hours ago, Robbored said:

One thing they both do is analysis the upcoming opposition very thoroughly. Not hacking of course but how they actually obtain the info they need is unclear. No-one actually asked them.

To me I find it remarkable just how much fine detail goes into match preparation. It's a huge exercise which the entire club is involved in. It's not just LJ and his coaches but staff like the two guys today. The detail available to the coaches is vast. 

Marginal gains......

They were asked how to improve FFs kicking and they said that he's instructed to kick the ball wide rather than up the middle and that's why the ball occasionally goes out.

They also said that many footballers are bright guys and mentioned Pack in particular.

The guys today were really interesting and I'd love to listen to a proper lecture from them followed by a Q&A session.

I don't find this that interesting, in fact it's a bit of a turn off.

Football at it's most enjoyable, both to play and watch, is a simple game.

When every player in every team is super fit, when all clubs have got the same access to data analysis, drones etc. surely the majority of teams will just cancel each other out?

Might be great for the 'technicians' behind the scenes but sounds like an increasingly tedious experience for the fans to me.

What is it, 5 0-0 draws already this season? Don't remember that many before.

[glynriley]

7 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

I don't find this that interesting, in fact it's a bit of a turn off.

Football at it's most enjoyable, both to play and watch, is a simple game.

When every player in every team is super fit, when all clubs have got the same access to data analysis, drones etc. surely the majority of teams will just cancel each other out?

Might be great for the 'technicians' behind the scenes but sounds like an increasingly tedious experience for the fans to me.

What is it, 5 0-0 draws already this season? Don't remember that many before.

Russell Osman will be very disappointed to hear that...!

[Grey Fox]

2 hours ago, underhanded said:

Due to my work I have a bit of contact with the sport scientists at BCFC and at other clubs and it is really amazing how much work they put in on the training pitch and on match days etc. You'd also be surprised at the clubs that utilise these type of technologies - whilst not as advanced this type of thing goes right down to League 2, and even a couple of national league clubs as well! Whilst we clearly have the investment in some pretty nifty hardware, the basic elements of this type of work can be done with a laptop and a few inexpensive sensors, so this has really began to permeate the game at all levels.

I also know we use drones for some of our analysis, which to me seems pretty awesome

Fascinating stuff!

Does that make us high flyers?

[1bristolcity]

1 hour ago, Robbored said:

A tired argument that, money spoiling the game................

It's the money that's led to the increase in technology which in turn is hoped to improve results.Thats not a negative imv.

Money is spoiling the game, it is the case that only clubs that have huge spending power will ever win anything, the exception was Leicester, which all that did was to spur the big clubs on to spend more to ensure it can't happen again, and it won't unless there are changes. So if you are content in the League titles being shares by any one of four clubs then fine, but it makes a mockery of the league. Of course you can multiply that by a factor of ten when it comes to Champions League.

 

Football has sold out to corrupt individuals by and large, dirty money, and is a good deal poorer for it.

[BCFC_Dan]

2 hours ago, 1bristolcity said:

Is it? Sort of takes the stuffing out of the game really, go analyze this and come back to see if I can actually kick a ball without falling over. Nope game is gone, gone for ever, it still make s me feel sick that some players are on a 1/4 million pounds a week...like I say the game is gone, blame Sky and the greedy suits that seek to fleece the fans.The game has never been further from the real fans that supported the club through a lifetime, I talk to a lot of football fans and the feeling is much the same they feel disconnected from the game.

I am sure thee kids that monitor all this feel they have the best job in the world, and I am sure the seniors felt the same as me in truth load of bollards.

  

I think you're conflating two largely unrelated issues here.

The money has increased to a quite staggering level and there's clearly a debate to be had there, as is the impact of paying academy players so much versus them learning to appreciate what they've got.

However that's not what this thread is about, which is about analysis and development. I do sometimes feel like there's an over-analysis of football from some quarters but I don't feel like it intrudes on my enjoyment of a game. I still think "that striker's having a good game", not "the deployment of the forward as a false 9 has improved his ability to link up with the inverted wingers". Improved analysis and sports science is pushing up standards, it's better for the players in terms of their well-being and recovery and it's allowed the game to become faster and more dynamic than ever before.

On top of that it counteracts the effect of money to an extent. City are punching well above their financial weight this season because they're using every tool they can to make a difference. When you're looking at wages of £15-20k per week for an established Championship player then an investment of (say, I have no real idea) £100k per season to turn an existing player on a lower wage into a top class player is well worth it. I don't know how much we'd have had to pay for a top Championship goalscorer but I'd wager it would have been more than we spent on the analysis that showed Bobby Reid could do it.

I get the anger with the modern game but I don't think this is the right target at all.

[Harry]

48 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

Money is spoiling the game, it is the case that only clubs that have huge spending power will ever win anything, the exception was Leicester, which all that did was to spur the big clubs on to spend more to ensure it can't happen again, and it won't unless there are changes. So if you are content in the League titles being shares by any one of four clubs then fine, but it makes a mockery of the league. Of course you can multiply that by a factor of ten when it comes to Champions League.

 

Football has sold out to corrupt individuals by and large, dirty money, and is a good deal poorer for it.

I don’t understand this nonsense about “only 4 clubs can win the league”. 

Since the ‘money game’ started with the advent of the Premier League in 1992, 6 different clubs have won the title. So that’s 6 clubs in 25 years. 

The previous 24 years, the title was won by, yes that’s right, 6 clubs.

So basically, the Prem/money era has seen the same amount of title winners as the previous quarter of a century. 

If you wanna go back further, let’s go from the 1892 season when the top league was established. Since then, there have been 24 clubs who’ve been champions. 

So, there were only another 12 winners in the preceding 77 years. 

12 winners in 77 years, followed by 6 winners in 24 years, followed by 6 winners in 25 years. 

Basically, money hasn’t reduced the number of clubs who can win the league - it has always been thus. 

[Davefevs]

Yes, analysis is helping counteract the bias of the naked eye, pre-conceived ideas etc.

The granularity of that analysis from the simple to the ptactical usage, e.g.

• km run to
• km run at high intensity vs low intensity - add to that
• with the ball / without the ball or
• where on the pitch those runs we done, couple that with
• relativity to the ball or 
• relativity to team-mates or opponent(s)
• etc

and you suddenly gave good quality data to understand what happened, rather than just simply saying "that goal was Player X’s fault" or "Player Y didn’t work hard enough today", etc.

 

[Davefevs]

4 minutes ago, Harry said:

I don’t understand this nonsense about “only 4 clubs can win the league”. 

Since the ‘money game’ started with the advent of the Premier League in 1992, 6 different clubs have won the title. So that’s 6 clubs in 25 years. 

The previous 24 years, the title was won by, yes that’s right, 6 clubs.

So basically, the Prem/money era has seen the same amount of title winners as the previous quarter of a century. 

If you wanna go back further, let’s go from the 1892 season when the top league was established. Since then, there have been 18 clubs who’ve been champions. 

So, there were only another 6 winners in the preceding 77 years. 

6 winners in 77 years, followed by 6 winners in 24 years, followed by 6 winners in 25 years. 

Basically, money hasn’t reduced the number of clubs who can win the league - it has always been thus. 

So true.  As a Liverpool fan, why were they successful in the 70s and 80s, partially because they were on of the wealthiest clubs.  The nouveau riche clubs like Forest at the time came it (wealthy local businessmen) threw some cash in and made a challenge.  Those wealthy businessmen from local have been replaced by those from the Far East.  The £signs are bigger but it is essentially the same dynamic.

I do wonder whether the big 6 currently might have a casualty at some point and become a big 4 or 5 again....or whether a new club will force one out (like Man City did to some extent) to retain the top 6?

[Cowshed]

5 hours ago, underhanded said:

Due to my work I have a bit of contact with the sport scientists at BCFC and at other clubs and it is really amazing how much work they put in on the training pitch and on match days etc. You'd also be surprised at the clubs that utilise these type of technologies - whilst not as advanced this type of thing goes right down to League 2, and even a couple of national league clubs as well! Whilst we clearly have the investment in some pretty nifty hardware, the basic elements of this type of work can be done with a laptop and a few inexpensive sensors, so this has really began to permeate the game at all levels.

I also know we use drones for some of our analysis, which to me seems pretty awesome

Fascinating stuff!

http://www.southwestsocceracademy.co.uk/phantom-4-drone.html

That is for kids at junior clubs.

3 hours ago, 1bristolcity said:

Is it? Sort of takes the stuffing out of the game really, go analyze this and come back to see if I can actually kick a ball without falling over. Nope game is gone, gone for ever, it still make s me feel sick that some players are on a 1/4 million pounds a week...like I say the game is gone, blame Sky and the greedy suits that seek to fleece the fans.The game has never been further from the real fans that supported the club through a lifetime, I talk to a lot of football fans and the feeling is much the same they feel disconnected from the game.

I am sure thee kids that monitor all this feel they have the best job in the world, and I am sure the seniors felt the same as me in truth load of bollards.

  

My view having seen facilities such as Man City's academy is ... How could somebody be against tools, and that is what technology is which help to improve an individual? You are typing on?

[redysteadygo1]

3 hours ago, Davefevs said:

Yep!

I often think "who would I relate to" and always struggle to find a decent match.

I was good in the air, a disciplined marker, quicker than most people thought, but I wasn’t a good footballer at the level I played, nor was I very aggressive for a CB.

I also had deceptive pace. Looked a lot faster than I actually was.

[1bristolcity]

1 hour ago, Harry said:

I don’t understand this nonsense about “only 4 clubs can win the league”. 

Since the ‘money game’ started with the advent of the Premier League in 1992, 6 different clubs have won the title. So that’s 6 clubs in 25 years. 

The previous 24 years, the title was won by, yes that’s right, 6 clubs.

So basically, the Prem/money era has seen the same amount of title winners as the previous quarter of a century. 

If you wanna go back further, let’s go from the 1892 season when the top league was established. Since then, there have been 24 clubs who’ve been champions. 

So, there were only another 12 winners in the preceding 77 years. 

12 winners in 77 years, followed by 6 winners in 24 years, followed by 6 winners in 25 years. 

Basically, money hasn’t reduced the number of clubs who can win the league - it has always been thus. 

You are looking back, Wenger commented much the same that the game has lost it's competitive edge with the big money clubs walking their respective leagues. in Europe. These clubs are even more far removed than the 'others' I am afraid your past analogy is irrelevant to-day. The evidence is there for all to see. 

[1bristolcity]

48 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

http://www.southwestsocceracademy.co.uk/phantom-4-drone.html

That is for kids at junior clubs.

My view having seen facilities such as Man City's academy is ... How could somebody be against tools, and that is what technology is which help to improve an individual? You are typing on?

Looks like all this technology can do nothing about the spate of injuries that seem to affect the game then? Can you remember a time that has been blighted with so many?

I can't.

[1bristolcity]

2 hours ago, BCFC_Dan said:

I think you're conflating two largely unrelated issues here.

The money has increased to a quite staggering level and there's clearly a debate to be had there, as is the impact of paying academy players so much versus them learning to appreciate what they've got.

However that's not what this thread is about, which is about analysis and development. I do sometimes feel like there's an over-analysis of football from some quarters but I don't feel like it intrudes on my enjoyment of a game. I still think "that striker's having a good game", not "the deployment of the forward as a false 9 has improved his ability to link up with the inverted wingers". Improved analysis and sports science is pushing up standards, it's better for the players in terms of their well-being and recovery and it's allowed the game to become faster and more dynamic than ever before.

On top of that it counteracts the effect of money to an extent. City are punching well above their financial weight this season because they're using every tool they can to make a difference. When you're looking at wages of £15-20k per week for an established Championship player then an investment of (say, I have no real idea) £100k per season to turn an existing player on a lower wage into a top class player is well worth it. I don't know how much we'd have had to pay for a top Championship goalscorer but I'd wager it would have been more than we spent on the analysis that showed Bobby Reid could do it.

I get the anger with the modern game but I don't think this is the right target at all.

Yes I appreciate I went off topic, the keyboard is possessed But in a way it is connected to the money game, you know to be the best you can, and I get that, but where do you draw the line, monitoring players vitals day in day out? Yep I know I am old school, but this creeping striving for excellence thing has a huge downside, look at British Cycling, they had the best coaches the best equipment the lot, and it was proved to be too intense, and in a way the fun went out of the sport. 

 

However I am grounded enough to accept it's here to stay.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, 1bristolcity said:

Looks like all this technology can do nothing about the spate of injuries that seem to affect the game then? Can you remember a time that has been blighted with so many?

I can't.

Ligament injuries have increased probably due to the game becoming exponentially faster, and players having to train harder. Other injuries have decreased. Injuries again are also being healed faster, including injuries that previously were career ending. 

You did not answer my question about why you are opposed to something that helps to improve an individual? A player will improve via physical effort and mental. Same as it ever was. Technology simply helps them to fulfill their potential.

[Unan]

5 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Ligament injuries have increased probably due to the game becoming exponentially faster, and players having to train harder. Other injuries have decreased. Injuries again are also being healed faster, including injuries that previously were career ending. 

You did not answer my question about why you are opposed to something that helps to improve an individual? A player will improve via physical effort and mental. Same as it ever was. Technology simply helps them to fulfill their potential.

No point of trying to debate with 1bc, he's incredibly old-fashioned and even more so stuck in his ways.