The bigger picture

[AshtonGreat]

12 minutes ago, Alan Dicks said:

Who has suggested we give up?

I've been a fan since the early 70s

After our relegation of 1980 we have had only two good chances of promotion in 38 long years, 2008 and this season.

The team we have now is better than the team of 2008 and yet we still will fail to go up in a poor to average championship.

Next season we will be weaker, your hope is where????

Interestingly, of the 92 teams in the football league, a massive 49 have played in the Premier League. We're not one of them.

[Alan Dicks]

8 minutes ago, ZiderEyed said:

"We are an unfashionable club with no history, top players will allways choose bigger better more fashionable clubs in this league over lil Bristol City."

Why the **** do we bother then? Whats the point? If you KNOW that we won't go up (you don't), you KNOW that the team will be weaker (you don't), and that players would rather play for teams that won the League Cup 40 years ago (redundant point at this level), then why bother even caring?

You cannot say things with absolute certainty that you cannot prove. You can't see the future.

I'd rather look on the bright side than be a dour, miserable bastard willing to give in before the final whistles gone.

You keep on believing son.

[The Dolman Pragmatist]

32 minutes ago, Alan Dicks said:

Who has suggested we give up?

I've been a fan since the early 70s

After our relegation of 1980 we have had only two good chances of promotion in 38 long years, 2008 and this season.

The team we have now is better than the team of 2008 and yet we still will fail to go up in a poor to average championship.

Next season we will be weaker, your hope is where????

Not true, we have had several promotion seasond since the 1980s.  I know you are thinking about the Premiership, but don't devalue the promotions we have achieved.

The squad may be better than in 2008, but we didn't have the same injuries in 2008...

What makes you think this is 'a poor to average championship'?  Teams are spending unheard of sums of money and the Championship is packed full of internationals.  I see the Championship getting stronger every year, and I think we are going incredibly well to compete with some of the squads out there.  Did you really think before the season started that we could stroll past the likes of Wolves, Villa, Derby and Middlesbrough?

Why on earth should we be weaker next season?  Yes, we may lose a player or two, but they will be replaced and the core of the squad will continue to develop.  I'm very excited about the prospects for next season, even if we don't get promotion.

[ZiderEyed]

1 minute ago, Alan Dicks said:

You keep on believing son.

Thanks Mystic Meg.

[Lrrr]

21 minutes ago, Alan Dicks said:

Who has suggested we give up?

I've been a fan since the early 70s

After our relegation of 1980 we have had only two good chances of promotion in 38 long years, 2008 and this season.

The team we have now is better than the team of 2008 and yet we still will fail to go up in a poor to average championship.

Next season we will be weaker, your hope is where????

It depends, do you have faith with our recruitment team? I do, over the last few seasons with strikers for example sell kodjia - where will the goals for - we got Abraham in that summer (admittedly before Kodjia leaving), after Tammy, where will the goals come from - Reid converted, Diedhiou bought. Our recruitment team also has a great eye for a bargain, Pato - £300,000 odd, Wright £450,000 odd, Brownhill for compensation, Steele free, O'Dowda has the potential to be a bargain, someone like Baker should have cost more. If we do sell our better players I expect we won't let them go easily so would have good funds to reinvest.

Also at worst we should still finish top 10 as well as our cup run raising our profile, we'll be a far more attractive prospect to join then the last few seasons where we've still recruited well in. 

[lager loud]

For the first time in many years, we appear to have a coaching set up that actually improves players. O'Dowda, Paterson, Pack, all seem to be better players this season than last. Our reputation for nurturing young players, post-Tammy, bodes well for getting more talented loanees from top teams. For me, this is the most promising thing for our long term future.

Our tactics and game management have sometimes been less impressive: a team set up to match Cardiff's style yesterday, for instance. The Sunderland game was the time I really began to suspect we might come up short this season: however the goals went in, that Sunderland defence was dreadful and we should have been out of sight before they got a sniff. LJ has found a way of playing that has got us lots of results. I'm not sure he's yet got the nous to adapt when, for whatever reason, that way doesn't work.

I think our high energy game has caught up with us (not helped by our long term injuries, making it hard for players to be rested). But there were strong signs of improvement against Fulham. I'm one of those who has mixed feelings about getting to the PL (I felt the same way in 2008) so I'm probably less concerned than some about whether we capitalise on our current position. But promotion certainly isn't out of the question yet - we just need a series of performances more like the one against Fulham than the one against Bolton (or Cardiff, probably, but I didn't actually see that game).

Our transfer dealings have been hit and miss - but that's always going to be the case, and it's probably more hit than miss. I'm unconvinced by January's dealings - not sure Diony or Kent improve the team in the short term. But Liam Walsh looks like he has some real potential; if we can develop him the way we have some other players he could turn out to be a great acquisition. And our transfer dealings overall seem to be much better organised than in the past.

So overall there's no question we're a stronger club than we were five years ago. If we don't go up this season the test will be whether we can replace whichever players we lose (there will surely be some) and maintain our progress. I don't think that will be easy. But, in theory, at least, if we sell players for decent fees we'll have some money to bring in one or two established players to play alongside our developing yougsters like Vyner and Walsh.

 

[ChippenhamRed]

40 minutes ago, downendcity said:

Our Bristolian pessemism tends to make us think this way, and too often in the past the club has been happy to oblige.

However, isn't the bigger picture - new structure top to bottom, stadium rebuild giving us additional revenue to close the financial gap with the divisions big hitters, player recruitment - all designed to try and avoid the bubble bursting. 

If the "bubble bursting" means we drop out of the play offs, but start next season from a higher base camp than in previous seasons then that constitutes progress, as in the past the bubble bursting has resulted in season on season decline and eventual relegation.

For what it's worth I think the Cardiff game came at the worst time ( when does it even come at a good time) as we played pretty well against Fulham and against another "footballing" side might well have regained our mojo still further. Not a chance of doing so by trying to play Cardiff at their own game, 'cause at that they are the masters!

Love the base camp analogy, that’s exactly what I’m getting at. Great post.

[Major Isewater]

Our high energy game caught up with us well before the January transfer window . 

We know that the club aren't willing to chase promotion ( have the courage to spend on quality to go the final yard !  ) and are happy at the signs of progress .

All is well at Ashton Gate . We can have a tilt at promotion next year or perhaps the year after .

There are many good things happening at the club and I agree that up until Christmas we were living a dream . 

I still believe that we are not ruthless enough to achieve all that we hope to achieve.

 

[roddy-d]

1 hour ago, Alan Dicks said:

Who has suggested we give up?

I've been a fan since the early 70s

After our relegation of 1980 we have had only two good chances of promotion in 38 long years, 2008 and this season.

The team we have now is better than the team of 2008 and yet we still will fail to go up in a poor to average championship.

Next season we will be weaker, your hope is where????

I don't why you feel we will be weaker. Brentford never seem to get weaker. 

[Major Isewater]

15 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

Love the base camp analogy, that’s exactly what I’m getting at. Great post.

Funny , I've just read the story of the Pakistani who wanted to be the first to plant his country's flag on top of " Murder Mountain "  ( not a Disney ride ) 

He and his Italian colleague nearly died on the climb because the other Italian in the ' team ' moved their base camp , he didn't want them getting to the peak before him ., so they spent the night in the open in sub  zero conditions and Mehdra had his toes amputated to prevent gangrene spreading.

( The article is on the BBC site ) 

So you can't always rely on the base camp being where you hope it should be .

[Wanderingred]

1 hour ago, Alan Dicks said:

You keep on believing son.

Out of curiosity, what was your pre-season prediction on how we would do and have we exceeded those expectations? Did you think we would win the league under Cotts? Did you think we would finish 4th in out first season back under LJ? Supporting this club is mostly doom and gloom but there have been times when we've been pleasantly surprised and you can never predict when they might happen. 

[cidered abroad]

It seems to me that a high percentage of us are saying the same things in different ways.

We didn't realistically expect to be in a play off spot for much of this season. But the very fact that we have been for several months has triggered the positives in many of us, and for most of us, used to promise ending in failure, we secretly expected what is happening now. Although when it actually happens, it is gut wrenching to see us slowly capitulating and wondering where or when it will end.

Major has now spelled out clearly, my biggest fear. That we will not recover this season is not a worry about where we might end up in the table after Sheffield United. It will not be in the bottom three. But it could mean that we start next season in similar vein and  we all know how that could turn out. Very negative, totally pessimistic but not unrealistic given how our club has gone through virtually all of it's existence.

So now to the positives. We have played some very entertaining football and when we do it sends shivers down my back. We've had a very good League Cup run with my zenith as the two games we played, and I mean played in the football sense, against Man City. They are not perfect as Wigan proved, but Man City could easily end up with EFL Cup, Premiership and Champions League. For us to play how we did against them, shows that we have the basis to build and grow into a Premiership club.

We have an Academy with about eighteen out on loan and still have enough left here to beat a good Liverpool U23's recently. Next season, I believe, we will have at least half a dozen of them banging on the first team door. Vyner, Kelly, Morrell, O'Leary, Baldwin, Holden and my dark horses, Opi Edwards & Tom Richards followed a year later by Andrews, Dowling and many others.

A new training ground, subject of course to the Neanderthals of Long Ashton, not derailing it.

We're recruiting players who have and will continue to improve. The likes of Brownhill, O'Dowda, Diedhiou, Eliasson, hopefully a fully fit Djuric.

I have my reservations about the first team coaching and tactics. Especially the haphazard team selection leading to two or three changes instead of one. Perhaps LJ should learn from industry. If something like a machine is not working efficiently or you want to improve it's efficiency, one should only change one aspect at a time, evaluate and if an improvement is seen, then make a second change and so one. If you're under pressure to keep up with output and not upset customers, change as little as possible and leave the twiddling to a quieter time.

A football team isn't much different; the twiddling of moving Reid into midfield should not have been done against second in the table and away from home? Just the same as three changes in midfield and defence when Baker was supended.

There are so many positives at City at present that we should feel good about the club. But unfortunately, with a football club, it isn't much different to M&S. Poor results over Christmas usually leads to the moving on of the M&S managing director.

Whatever is going on behind the scenes at BCFC, it's Academy, are totally irrelevant if the first team are not performing. So we must put it right without any delay.

[Ian Crabbe]

I think this season is a bit like the Leeds game,we’ve had a great time,with the cup run as well and gone 2-0 up,maybe the recent run of results we have had means we have given away the late equaliser and all feel a bit down,but I can see us getting a penalty in the last minute,but will we score it and still get in the top six?

[Davefevs]

10 hours ago, ZiderEyed said:

CONDENSED VERSION:

Things are looking up you moody bastards, bad form doesn't change that.

@BigTone the cheek of the young whipper snapper 

9 hours ago, jellyred said:

I think Diony was probably scouted last season and was seen as having the talent and attitude but other teams were prepared to pay more in the summer when he became available it was probably seen as a no lose situation for january. I've only seen him against Fulham admittedly but I think he seemed okay for the limited time he was on. I presume what people wanted was an established championship striker and to be honest I just don't know if one was available for the price we were willing to pay or even on loan, none of us do which is just how it is. I know he hasn't exactly set the world alight in the short time here but there is a chance (however small) that Diony will come good in the next few games

The established striker or the established striker myth?  I don’t know, but nothing is guaranteed.  There will be many on here who touted us to go and get Madine, Jerome, Afobe, Martin etc.  None of them have set the world alight at their new clubs.  Perhaps they might have had they come here.  Just trying to say every signing is a gamble.  I think Diony has something, but I think I’m glad it’s a loan.  Same with Kent.  He gives us something different, but I don’t think we actually needed something different.  I would’ve wanted a player the same as what we’ve got, integrated them, and shared the workload, e.g. a Brownhill or O’Dowda clone.  I no longer consider COD as a winger but a wide midfielder.  

9 hours ago, lager loud said:

For the first time in many years, we appear to have a coaching set up that actually improves players. O'Dowda, Paterson, Pack, all seem to be better players this season than last. Our reputation for nurturing young players, post-Tammy, bodes well for getting more talented loanees from top teams. For me, this is the most promising thing for our long term future.

Our tactics and game management have sometimes been less impressive: a team set up to match Cardiff's style yesterday, for instance. The Sunderland game was the time I really began to suspect we might come up short this season: however the goals went in, that Sunderland defence was dreadful and we should have been out of sight before they got a sniff. LJ has found a way of playing that has got us lots of results. I'm not sure he's yet got the nous to adapt when, for whatever reason, that way doesn't work.

I think our high energy game has caught up with us (not helped by our long term injuries, making it hard for players to be rested). But there were strong signs of improvement against Fulham. I'm one of those who has mixed feelings about getting to the PL (I felt the same way in 2008) so I'm probably less concerned than some about whether we capitalise on our current position. But promotion certainly isn't out of the question yet - we just need a series of performances more like the one against Fulham than the one against Bolton (or Cardiff, probably, but I didn't actually see that game).

Our transfer dealings have been hit and miss - but that's always going to be the case, and it's probably more hit than miss. I'm unconvinced by January's dealings - not sure Diony or Kent improve the team in the short term. But Liam Walsh looks like he has some real potential; if we can develop him the way we have some other players he could turn out to be a great acquisition. And our transfer dealings overall seem to be much better organised than in the past.

So overall there's no question we're a stronger club than we were five years ago. If we don't go up this season the test will be whether we can replace whichever players we lose (there will surely be some) and maintain our progress. I don't think that will be easy. But, in theory, at least, if we sell players for decent fees we'll have some money to bring in one or two established players to play alongside our developing yougsters like Vyner and Walsh.

 

I think that is the disappointment of Cardiff, that we’d played much more like Bristol City in the Fulham game, and the corner appeared turned.

Re Transfer dealings....Assuming we don’t lose Reid or Diedhiou, we don’t need to spend the summer trying to recruit a 15-20 goal striker.  We have 2 here already.  The focus should be strengthening elsewhere with upgrades in a couple of places, Goalkeeper especially.

[Galley is our king]

9 hours ago, Alan Dicks said:

You keep on believing son.

Were Bristol City... We ALWAYS BELIEVE!! 

[BigTone]

3 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

@BigTone the cheek of the young whipper snapper 

 

I know, its an absolute liberty

[Sleepy1968]

Agree with many of the positive posters in this thread.

We've had our expectations raised and some of us started to believe that we were world beaters - we kind of were for a bit - but the season is 46+ games long, so whether you choose look at at our position going into the Wolves game or our form since then, it's premature to judge our season at the moment. 

Most of us remain hopeful (rather than optimistic) that the boys can find their form and finish the season on a high. Regardless of whether we make the play-offs all I care about is the players give their all over the next 12 games. If they make the effort then I'm happy to leave the upcoming results and our final position in the lap of the football gods.

[BCFC Rich]

10 hours ago, Abraham Romanovich said:

I for one would not, LJ had his 3 transfer windows the stadium /infrastructure was in place and the attendances were up.

A play off push should have been a realistic goal,as others have noted the turning point appears to have been the Wolves game which we never should have lost.

I feel this together with a wasted January transfer window we have let a wonderful opportunity slip through our fingers

I mean we are having a playoff push so are you saying we're meeting your expectations? 

[ChippenhamRed]

10 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

I mean we are having a playoff push so are you saying we're meeting your expectations? 

Exactly, anyone would think we were 15th.

[cidered abroad]

31 minutes ago, BCFC Richard said:

I mean we are having a playoff push so are you saying we're meeting your expectations? 

Except that we appear to have pressed the self destruct button against Wolves and nobody has bothered to remove the finger that is still pressing it. Another fallow quarter of season looms unless we do release it. 

[BCFC Rich]

29 minutes ago, cidered abroad said:

Except that we appear to have pressed the self destruct button against Wolves and nobody has bothered to remove the finger that is still pressing it. Another fallow quarter of season looms unless we do release it. 

Everyone is obviously hoping that happens, but my point is that despite recent poor form we are 6th and in the playoffs. The post I was replying too seemed to be suggesting we should be expecting a playoff push and that we weren't getting one. Ultimately the worst case scenario for our season is improving on last season. And the playoffs are still a very realistic prospect. 

[robin_unreliant]

I understand why people say we didn't do enough in January.

He may not have shown it yet, but Diony would be our record signing. People seem to have ignored that to some extent. If he'd scored three goals and we'd beat Sunderland and Leeds we'd all be saying what a great window it was.

Pre-Jan I thought LJ's comments about only wanting a couple was about right. We didn't want to disrupt the squad and key players were due back.

All I think I'm saying is it's fine margins. To claim the club blew it by being unambitious in January is a bit unfair imo. Yes it looks like Diony may not be what they hoped - but he is in the £5-8m range which is still a big signing by our standards. A signing like that 2-3 years ago would have been greeted with wild enthusiasm. 

He may yet work out. We have to keep some perspective and not get totally unrealistic about what we can do in a couple of seasons.

[ChippenhamRed]

2 minutes ago, robin_unreliant said:

I understand why people say we didn't do enough in January.

He may not have shown it yet, but Diony would be our record signing. People seem to have ignored that to some extent. If he'd scored three goals and we'd beat Sunderland and Leeds we'd all be saying what a great window it was.

Pre-Jan I thought LJ's comments about only wanting a couple was about right. We didn't want to disrupt the squad and key players were due back.

All I think I'm saying is it's fine margins. To claim the club blew it by being unambitious in January is a bit unfair imo. Yes it looks like Diony may not be what they hoped - but he is in the £5-8m range which is still a big signing by our standards. A signing like that 2-3 years ago would have been greeted with wild enthusiasm. 

He may yet work out. We have to keep some perspective and not get totally unrealistic about what we can do in a couple of seasons.

On what basis is Diony a "£5-8m range" player? Genuine question.

[robin_unreliant]

9 minutes ago, ChippenhamRed said:

On what basis is Diony a "£5-8m range" player? Genuine question.

As I understand it he was bought for 9m euros only last summer and will cost more than Famara so somewhere in that range. They will presumably want to get as close as possible to what they paid....

[INCRED]

I just wonder what the atmosphere and comments would be like if the season to date was reversed and we started poorly and then went on an excellent run to now find ourselves in 6th position and play off contenders, perhaps a damn sight more positive than what’s been spouted in recent weeks?

i felt we were finding our early season form against Fulham but the Cardiff game was poor and two key injuries suffered 

Still think we are in with a good shout for playoffs but going to need the rub of the green a bit with injuries 

[ChippenhamRed]

1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

As I understand it he was bought for 9m euros only last summer and will cost more than Famara so somewhere in that range. They will presumably want to get as close as possible to what they paid....

Fair enough. I think they’ll be lucky!

[pillred]

4 hours ago, robin_unreliant said:

I understand why people say we didn't do enough in January.

He may not have shown it yet, but Diony would be our record signing. People seem to have ignored that to some extent. If he'd scored three goals and we'd beat Sunderland and Leeds we'd all be saying what a great window it was.

Pre-Jan I thought LJ's comments about only wanting a couple was about right. We didn't want to disrupt the squad and key players were due back.

All I think I'm saying is it's fine margins. To claim the club blew it by being unambitious in January is a bit unfair imo. Yes it looks like Diony may not be what they hoped - but he is in the £5-8m range which is still a big signing by our standards. A signing like that 2-3 years ago would have been greeted with wild enthusiasm. 

He may yet work out. We have to keep some perspective and not get totally unrealistic about what we can do in a couple of seasons.

but he didn't score 3 goals, and we didn't beat sunderland or leeds, and if my auntie had balls she would be my uncle, not quite sure what you are getting at.

[Major Isewater]

8 hours ago, INCRED said:

I just wonder what the atmosphere and comments would be like if the season to date was reversed and we started poorly and then went on an excellent run to now find ourselves in 6th position and play off contenders, perhaps a damn sight more positive than what’s been spouted in recent weeks?

i felt we were finding our early season form against Fulham but the Cardiff game was poor and two key injuries suffered 

Still think we are in with a good shout for playoffs but going to need the rub of the green a bit with injuries 

The point is that we didn't build up to sixth , of course if we had come into form just at the right moment we would be delighted and talking of going all the way but if we drop out of the playoffs now, we will be disappointed. 

We only needed average results from December to the end of the season to ensure a shot at a glorious attempt at promotion but here we are in relegation form and mystified.

 

[robin_unreliant]

4 hours ago, pillred said:

but he didn't score 3 goals, and we didn't beat sunderland or leeds, and if my auntie had balls she would be my uncle, not quite sure what you are getting at.

What I'm saying is that some are blaming SL, MA and LJ for not 'going for it' in January.

Looking at it from the club's perspective we did bring in what they thought would be a real quality addition up front. If he'd been what they hoped it could have been enough for us to kick on.

OK he hasn't had the impact they hoped. That is all hindsight though. I just think the 'lack of ambition' accusation may be a bit over the top. Signing what would be our most expensive player ever shows ambition. Unfortunately the choice of player though looks a bit of an issue at this point in time.

[Major Isewater]

1 hour ago, robin_unreliant said:

What I'm saying is that some are blaming SL, MA and LJ for not 'going for it' in January.

Looking at it from the club's perspective we did bring in what they thought would be a real quality addition up front. If he'd been what they hoped it could have been enough for us to kick on.

OK he hasn't had the impact they hoped. That is all hindsight though. I just think the 'lack of ambition' accusation may be a bit over the top. Signing what would be our most expensive player ever shows ambition. Unfortunately the choice of player though looks a bit of an issue at this point in time.

As I've said repeatedly there are no guarantees.

Diony , however , was a player we'd scouted until he became too expensive for our budget . 

The club knew him and I'm sure they felt that this could be a fantastic opportunity as he wanted to quit the nightmare he was enduring at St Etienne and a deal could be done that suited everyone.

My gut feeling is that it's ' right player , wrong moment ' but the opportunity was their and the club took it .Fair play to them. 

However signing  a player so badly out of form , no goals, no assists, all season , at a time when we need an instant impact seems at odds with our desire to achieve promotion.

 I maintain that we could  have done better business in January, we didn't send out the message that we were going for it and I believe that has been subconsciously taken on board by the squad. 

We are safe from relegation now and are unlikely to go up so no point busting your balls fellas.