Ten years on - history repeating

[myol'man]

1 hour ago, Midred said:

Like a wheel within a wheel?

Never ending or beginning.......

[Guest]

1 hour ago, bris red said:

I keep on saying about the similarities to 2008 and ive been by and large shot down by many on here. We have come on as a club a fair but since 2008 admittedly but its so frustrating that we didnt give it the real push it so needed in January 2008 and also January 2018.

Is it not a small case of be careful what you wish for too? Let us not forget LJ and MA were trying to buy Diony last year but his price (thank .... ) inflated to out of our reach. If the chequebook was open in January, imagine if they came back with him permanently

[Andy082005]

12 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Two seasons at City if you call this recent run of results 'barren'. Remind me - how many draws have there been?

He hasn't lost 0-6 at home to Cardiff either..............

to be fair we are on a very poor run, and it is concerning how Johnson seems so prone to go on these 'little runs'

He had it at Barnsley  and I am sure he did at Oldham as well (although not 100% certain)

[Michael McIndoe]

Thanks for bringing this to attention @Kid in the RiotWhen I posted that thread back in January, I was hoping that they would have learnt from the same mistakes we made 10 years ago. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot more similarities than those I mentioned in that thread. In my autobiography I went into a lot of detail about why I felt we threw our 2007/08 opportunity away. It still angers me to this day.

Back in 07/08 look at the individuals in the starting XI in the first part of the season when we were flying, and then look at the team that played the latter end of the season. It's not the same 11 players. Then compare the amount of wins. It's clearly obvious that the starting XI in the first half of the season was the reason we were doing so well. This season looks exactly the same. You fans will know a lot more than me but just look at the names on your team sheet when you picked up the most points this season, and now look at the team sheet for the games you've not won. It will not be the same players. 

Yes I understand injuries and lack of form but let me give you another example. Is it a coincidence that you're not winning as many games because Paterson is not playing as well? He is one of the most feared attacking creative players in the division. And yes his form dipped but that's not the time to not be playing him or keep taking him off. That's the time to put your arm around him and tell him how good he is. I watched the kid play against both Manchester clubs and at times he was unplayable. 

I think the answer is very simple...pick the team that has won you the most games so far this season. This is one of the things that Gary didn't do IMO 10 years ago. The beauty is there are still enough games left to do this and claim a play-off spot, but if you don't I promise you the team will finish 8th as I stated on a previous thread. I'm not saying 8th is a bad finish in the Championship but managers are judged on promotions. These opportunities do not come around often. Look how long it's taken since you last had this opportunity to get into the PL. 

 

[Major Isewater]

11 minutes ago, Michael McIndoe said:

Thanks for bringing this to attention @Kid in the RiotWhen I posted that thread back in January, I was hoping that they would have learnt from the same mistakes we made 10 years ago. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot more similarities than those I mentioned in that thread. In my autobiography I went into a lot of detail about why I felt we threw our 2007/08 opportunity away. It still angers me to this day.

Back in 07/08 look at the individuals in the starting XI in the first part of the season when we were flying, and then look at the team that played the latter end of the season. It's not the same 11 players. Then compare the amount of wins. It's clearly obvious that the starting XI in the first half of the season was the reason we were doing so well. This season looks exactly the same. You fans will know a lot more than me but just look at the names on your team sheet when you picked up the most points this season, and now look at the team sheet for the games you've not won. It will not be the same players. 

Yes I understand injuries and lack of form but let me give you another example. Is it a coincidence that you're not winning as many games because Paterson is not playing as well? He is one of the most feared attacking creative players in the division. And yes his form dipped but that's not the time to not be playing him or keep taking him off. That's the time to put your arm around him and tell him how good he is. I watched the kid play against both Manchester clubs and at times he was unplayable. 

I think the answer is very simple...pick the team that has won you the most games so far this season. This is one of the things that Gary didn't do IMO 10 years ago. The beauty is there are still enough games left to do this and claim a play-off spot, but if you don't I promise you the team will finish 8th as I stated on a previous thread. I'm not saying 8th is a bad finish in the Championship but managers are judged on promotions. These opportunities do not come around often. Look how long it's taken since you last had this opportunity to get into the PL. 

 

I'm surprised you haven't mentioned your autobiography before MM . 

Who wrote it ? 

I agree that there is still time to get a play off place secured but not on 2018 form which is relegation form .

We need a confidence boosting win on Saturday or we may as well accept that the towel has been thrown in by the club for this year.

[Olé]

It's a good observation Will, but I'm not sure the parallels are actually as strong as they seem at first glance.

Unless my memory is playing tricks, apart from two bad defeats after Christmas at West Brom and Palace, I thought we were still reasonably competitive until the last two months of the season in 08 - in other words some weeks after the new signings had been established in the team and the team had changed as a result.

On this occasion our form dipped mid-season if anything, and both the addition of new players (January) and adjustment to tactics (yesterday, at least) has really been more of a reaction to the form than a cause of it (for one thing, note that apart from Matt Taylor, the personnel which beat Man Utd are all still available to us). 

That's not to say there isn't a risk this scrambling for new tactics now doesn't exacerbate our fall off in the same way as 07/08 - but for now it is fairly obvious to me at least, that the emerging issues pre-date both January signings. Michael M has touched on one (Paterson's form), stamina and lack of adequate cover is another.

In other words, where @Michael McIndoe argues in his book that City changed their approach in 07/08 and went away from what worked so well, I would say this time round what worked so well stopped working before Lee started tinkering, and he is guilty only of trying to find a plan B (Dubai trip?) and the new signings aren't it!

['Orns]

2 hours ago, Robbored said:

I find the constant negativity around LJ utterly groundless. This season has been pretty damn good but some fans just can't accept that fact.

Help - does anyone know how to stop the irony-o-meter going off in my head right now?

The second part of the statement I completely agree with

[milo1111]

3 hours ago, Fuber said:

Harsh on Kent. More the factor that Pato has been critically dropping out of form since New Year.

Why is pato out of form?? Could it be because he has been moved out wide and that he is far more effective in a central role behind reid??

[RedRock]

2 minutes ago, milo1111 said:

Why is pato out of form?? Could it be because he has been moved out wide and that he is far more effective in a central role behind reid??

Pato’s not been the same since his illness. Whatever it was sucked all the energy out of him and he ain’t got it back.

[054123]

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Like a spiral in a spiral.

Or a double helix?

[Duck]

Pato At the end of the Fulham game notice he was sat down on the pitch really tired . Also was told when he was ill in hospital he was put on a drip.

[Lrrr]

12 minutes ago, milo1111 said:

Why is pato out of form?? Could it be because he has been moved out wide and that he is far more effective in a central role behind reid??

Pato has been effective for us out wide before, its not as if he's not a winger who we've shoved out wide out of position. 

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Michael McIndoe said:

Thanks for bringing this to attention @Kid in the RiotWhen I posted that thread back in January, I was hoping that they would have learnt from the same mistakes we made 10 years ago. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot more similarities than those I mentioned in that thread. In my autobiography I went into a lot of detail about why I felt we threw our 2007/08 opportunity away. It still angers me to this day.

Back in 07/08 look at the individuals in the starting XI in the first part of the season when we were flying, and then look at the team that played the latter end of the season. It's not the same 11 players. Then compare the amount of wins. It's clearly obvious that the starting XI in the first half of the season was the reason we were doing so well. This season looks exactly the same. You fans will know a lot more than me but just look at the names on your team sheet when you picked up the most points this season, and now look at the team sheet for the games you've not won. It will not be the same players. 

Yes I understand injuries and lack of form but let me give you another example. Is it a coincidence that you're not winning as many games because Paterson is not playing as well? He is one of the most feared attacking creative players in the division. And yes his form dipped but that's not the time to not be playing him or keep taking him off. That's the time to put your arm around him and tell him how good he is. I watched the kid play against both Manchester clubs and at times he was unplayable. 

I think the answer is very simple...pick the team that has won you the most games so far this season. This is one of the things that Gary didn't do IMO 10 years ago. The beauty is there are still enough games left to do this and claim a play-off spot, but if you don't I promise you the team will finish 8th as I stated on a previous thread. I'm not saying 8th is a bad finish in the Championship but managers are judged on promotions. These opportunities do not come around often. Look how long it's taken since you last had this opportunity to get into the PL. 

 

Re Patto, as others have implied, he hasn't been the same since he was ill. Has lacked energy and alertness.

I have no idea what the illness was, but apparently he lost loads of weight and was put on a drip.

We all know how viruses can effect you.

Some stay in your system for years and are energy sapping. Hopefully it isn't like that, but if so, it can really effect you for months or even years.

[Lanterne Rouge]

9 minutes ago, spudski said:

Re Patto, as others have implied, he hasn't been the same since he was ill. Has lacked energy and alertness.

I have no idea what the illness was, but apparently he lost loads of weight and was put on a drip.

We all know how viruses can effect you.

Some stay in your system for years and are energy sapping. Hopefully it isn't like that, but if so, it can really effect you for months or even years.

David Clarkson. He was never the same after he had one.

[Major Isewater]

6 minutes ago, spudski said:

Re Patto, as others have implied, he hasn't been the same since he was ill. Has lacked energy and alertness.

I have no idea what the illness was, but apparently he lost loads of weight and was put on a drip.

We all know how viruses can effect you.

Some stay in your system for years and are energy sapping. Hopefully it isn't like that, but if so, it can really effect you for months or even years.

David Clarkson, a Scottish international forward , who came to us with very high hopes also , if I recall correctly, had a virus and never really recovered enough to feature for us .

He was so bad that he went to the Gas .

Is that what you want Pato ? 

 

[Kingswoodactor]

11 minutes ago, spudski said:

Re Patto, as others have implied, he hasn't been the same since he was ill. Has lacked energy and alertness.

I have no idea what the illness was, but apparently he lost loads of weight and was put on a drip.

We all know how viruses can effect you.

Some stay in your system for years and are energy sapping. Hopefully it isn't like that, but if so, it can really effect you for months or even years.

Pato was ill around early Nov, when he lost 5kg and had the drip etc. 

He was actually in some of his best form after that illness, with his form in December being superb (Boro home, Sheff Utd away, Boxing Day game Reading). I also thought he looked great against Man City away in early Jan. 

So I wouldn't say that he's been out of sorts since early November at all! 

It seems to me that since Diedhiou has come back into the side, our football has gotten worse, and this doesn't help players like Pato who are technically very sound at playing 1-2 touch stuff and neat triangles. Hmmm...

 

[Red-Robbo]

39 minutes ago, 054123 said:

Or a double helix?

It's in the DNA.....    

[RedorDead BCFC]

Patterson is also being treated with pain killer injections for his back, at the moment isn’t he? 

My back is fcked at the moment, I’ve already had an op on it and no where near as fit as most people on here let alone football players. But  just walking from the petrol pump to the kiosk earlier today I was dreading walking back to the car. 

[Alan Dicks]

1 hour ago, Michael McIndoe said:

Thanks for bringing this to attention @Kid in the RiotWhen I posted that thread back in January, I was hoping that they would have learnt from the same mistakes we made 10 years ago. Unfortunately there seem to be a lot more similarities than those I mentioned in that thread. In my autobiography I went into a lot of detail about why I felt we threw our 2007/08 opportunity away. It still angers me to this day.

Back in 07/08 look at the individuals in the starting XI in the first part of the season when we were flying, and then look at the team that played the latter end of the season. It's not the same 11 players. Then compare the amount of wins. It's clearly obvious that the starting XI in the first half of the season was the reason we were doing so well. This season looks exactly the same. You fans will know a lot more than me but just look at the names on your team sheet when you picked up the most points this season, and now look at the team sheet for the games you've not won. It will not be the same players. 

Yes I understand injuries and lack of form but let me give you another example. Is it a coincidence that you're not winning as many games because Paterson is not playing as well? He is one of the most feared attacking creative players in the division. And yes his form dipped but that's not the time to not be playing him or keep taking him off. That's the time to put your arm around him and tell him how good he is. I watched the kid play against both Manchester clubs and at times he was unplayable. 

I think the answer is very simple...pick the team that has won you the most games so far this season. This is one of the things that Gary didn't do IMO 10 years ago. The beauty is there are still enough games left to do this and claim a play-off spot, but if you don't I promise you the team will finish 8th as I stated on a previous thread. I'm not saying 8th is a bad finish in the Championship but managers are judged on promotions. These opportunities do not come around often. Look how long it's taken since you last had this opportunity to get into the PL. 

 

Was thinking the same earlier today, apart from COD we can pretty much play the same players in the same positions with the same formations as in the first 3 or 4 months of the season when we were flying.

 

[Davefevs]

7 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

It was with interest that I read @Michael McIndoe 's post back in January that urged City not to make the same mistakes as they did in 2008 in regard to player recruitment. I think it’s fair to say it was a widely held view amongst the fanbase that we didn’t strengthen sufficiently in that window and so it was interesting to see that view was also held by at least one member of the playing staff from that time. The particularly pertinent line from Michael’s post (link below) is as follows:

“I remember 10 years ago when Gary was sat in a very similar position and we signed a foreigner who didn't know the division and someone who didn't suit our style of play.”

I assume the players Michael is referring to are:

1)     Nick Carle (a foreigner who didn’t know the division); and

2)     Dele Adebola (someone who didn’t suit our style of play).

Skip forward 10 years and the similarities regarding our two ‘marquee’ signings in January are uncanny:

1)     Lois Diony (a foreigner who doesn’t know the division & hasn’t scored all season); and

2)     Ryan Kent (someone who IMO it is becoming clear doesn’t suit our style of play – I will allow @spudski to elaborate!)

We also signed Liam Walsh of course, however I don’t think he can be considered a ‘starter’ just yet.

@Michael McIndoe has detailed how our style of play changed once Adebola was signed in that we abandoned our quick, counter, passing game for a more direct approach that didn’t suit most of the personnel we had at the club. Since January we are seeing very similar; the style of play that got us to the top of the Championship appears to have been ditched in favour of a more frantic, direct style not helped by team selection, the re-introduction of Diedhou and the more recent introduction of Diony.

We didn’t stick to our playing principles in 2008 or strengthen sufficiently in January and it ultimately cost us promotion. I believe the same is happening again, it has already cost us a top two spot and unless we return to team selection/style of play we adopted pre-Christmas then it may very well cost us a play-off spot which is frankly there for the taking. We need to get back to basics and what we were doing in that brilliant run in Nov/Dec: Fielding; Wright, Flint, Baker, Mags; Brownhill, Pack, Smith, Bryan; Paterson; Reid.

http://www.otib.co.uk/index.php?/topic/191776-new-signings-needed-for-promotion/

 

Not read the responses, sorry everyone, but there is a big part of me that thinks:

"just go back and play as close a team as possible to the one that had a great run" 

I probably mean the front 6 in reality.  The back four could have Wright or Pisano at RB, and Bryan or Magnússon at LB (I prefer Mags LB, Joe LM combo) I think it is good enough.  Notwithstanding potential injury to Baker.

Then we go:

Brownhill, Pack, Smith, Bryan (see above)

Paterson

Reid

I really rate Diedhiou, but a bit like "The Full Monty", this team is for "One Game Only"...so he misses out (bring him on if need be). The players know each other inside out.  If that one game gets 3 points, then maybe play them again.  Rather knacker a couple of players over 3 games and get 6,7,9 points, and then think about changing it up.  I was gonna post this on another thread, but this seemed more appropriate.

Time to go back to basics, principles, the way we ‘used to play’.

Got to be worth a try.  Think LJ has had a bit too much choice and over-complicated it.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

Not read the responses, sorry everyone, but there is a big part of me that thinks:

"just go back and play as close a team as possible to the one that had a great run" 

I probably mean the front 6 in reality.  The back four could have Wright or Pisano at RB, and Bryan or Magnússon at LB (I prefer Mags LB, Joe LM combo) I think it is good enough.  Notwithstanding potential injury to Baker.

Then we go:

Brownhill, Pack, Smith, Bryan (see above)

Paterson

Reid

I really rate Diedhiou, but a bit like "The Full Monty", this team is for "One Game Only"...so he misses out (bring him on if need be). The players know each other inside out.  If that one game gets 3 points, then maybe play them again.  Rather knacker a couple of players over 3 games and get 6,7,9 points, and then think about changing it up.  I was gonna post this on another thread, but this seemed more appropriate.

Time to go back to basics, principles, the way we ‘used to play’.

Got to be worth a try.  Think LJ has had a bit too much choice and over-complicated it.

I'd put a good wedge on City starting the next game pretty much like this...

---------------------------------------------------------FF--------------------------------------------------------

Wright-----------------------------Flint------------------Baker/Mags--------------Bryan/Mags

Brownhill----------------------Smith----------------------Pack------------------------Kent/Bryan

----------------------Reid-------------------------------------------------------Pato---------------------------

 

[City Rocker]

5 hours ago, RedorDead BCFC said:

Patterson is also being treated with pain killer injections for his back, at the moment isn’t he? 

My back is fcked at the moment, I’ve already had an op on it and no where near as fit as most people on here let alone football players. But  just walking from the petrol pump to the kiosk earlier today I was dreading walking back to the car. 

OK well bring your boots Saturday anyway, just in case. 

[Kid in the Riot]

36 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'd put a good wedge on City starting the next game pretty much like this...

---------------------------------------------------------FF--------------------------------------------------------

Wright-----------------------------Flint------------------Baker/Mags--------------Bryan/Mags

Brownhill----------------------Smith----------------------Pack------------------------Kent/Bryan

----------------------Reid-------------------------------------------------------Pato---------------------------

 

Just can't see him dropping Fam AND Diony mate. Reid will surely return to the frontline though.

[Offside]

39 minutes ago, spudski said:

I'd put a good wedge on City starting the next game pretty much like this...

---------------------------------------------------------FF--------------------------------------------------------

Wright-----------------------------Flint------------------Baker/Mags--------------Bryan/Mags

Brownhill----------------------Smith----------------------Pack------------------------Kent/Bryan

----------------------Reid-------------------------------------------------------Pato---------------------------

 

I'd be quite happy with that lineup.

[Lorenzos Only Goal]

I think the answer is clear I'll refer you to Mark Ashton's, we're not going to change the club's policy because of league position.

[spudski]

30 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Just can't see him dropping Fam AND Diony mate. Reid will surely return to the frontline though.

After watching and listening to LJ's recent interviews and reading between the lines of what he had to say, I came to the conclusion of that team above mate.

[The Bard]

10 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Not harsh on Kent at all. Not his fault, but he's a ball-carrier (like Nick Carle was)  who like to cut inside a lot, take players on and isn't particularly disciplined defensively. I just don't think he is a good fit for our style of play. 

Don't think that's a relevant comparison.  At least Kent has played at this level before.

The sort of player we should have signed was Liam Rosenior on loan.  He now plays right back, can play as a left back at a push and in midfield.  He's been promoted out this division before.  

[Bryans Left Peg]

7 minutes ago, The Bard said:

Don't think that's a relevant comparison.  At least Kent has played at this level before.

The sort of player we should have signed was Liam Rosenior on loan.  He now plays right back, can play as a left back at a push and in midfield.  He's been promoted out this division before.  

It's been 15 years, move on 

[The Bard]

13 minutes ago, Bryans Left Peg said:

It's been 15 years, move on 

Sorry but he would have been of more immediate use than either Walsh or Diony.  We clearly needed experience of being successful at this level.

 

[Bryans Left Peg]

1 minute ago, The Bard said:

Sorry but he would have been of more immediate use than either Walsh or Diony.  We clearly needed experience of being successful at this level.

 

Sorry, I was being facetious.

I think the club has a transfer policy and will be sticking with it (as mentioned below) which can be considered admirable or reckless depending on which side of the fence you stand. 

Personally, I like it, I think it's refreshing and maybe we didn't get it right in January but long term the approach will work.

1 hour ago, Lorenzos Only Goal said:

I think the answer is clear I'll refer you to Mark Ashton's, we're not going to change the club's policy because of league position.