Reading between the lines...

[Red Grovesy]

2 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Pack was on the naughty step and didn't play at Cardiff but that point aside you seem to have or in for the Frenchmen.

I agree Pack was not available, but is for the next game I believe. I didn't like what I saw stood in the bitter cold at Cardiff last Sunday. I believe we stand a better chance of the team carrying out the managers game plan if we start Reid and Patterson for the next game.

[Big C]

10 hours ago, lager loud said:

Neither Diedhou nor Diony played in the games against MCFC or in the ones around that time. So the group of players selected on Sunday hadn't demonstrated they had the ability to play LJ's required style: 20% of the outfield players represents a significant proportion, particularly if your style requires everyone to work together in a particular way.

Who was that centre forward we brought on at half time against MCFC in the home leg? Could have sworn it was Diedhiou

[lager loud]

1 minute ago, Big C said:

Who was that centre forward we brought on at half time against MCFC in the home leg? Could have sworn it was Diedhiou

Fair point.  My mistake.

I still believe playing both Diedhou and Diony makes it difficult for us to play our 'usual' pressing game.

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, lager loud said:

Fair point.  My mistake.

I still believe playing both Diedhou and Diony makes it difficult for us to play our 'usual' pressing game.

It does not make it difficult it makes it impossible. Because tactically they are set up differently,and physically they are not up to it. Note I have not used the word lazy. It is unrealistic technically, tactically and physically to expect players to seemlessly play as their peers do unless they have the adaptability to carry out similar roles.

Play Marlon Pack and Aden Flint up front they too would not be press and screen as Reid has. They would also would not able able to play Patterson does.

Its not just philosophy. Its psychology. Confidence comes from knowing what you are doing. Lee Johnson sent BCFC out v Cardiff with a system they do not/did not play and will have hardly practiced. That they did not play free flowing football, or pass the ball as he wanted, play as he wanted ... No shit Sherlock.

[Jack Dawe]

11 hours ago, Big C said:

You say it's naïve but after that laying in after the Preston game we didn't lose another game until the last game of the season by which time we were safe

Tomlin started against Preston. He didn't start another game for us, appearing just two more times as a sub, on 88mins v QPR and given half an hour on the last day v Brum. 

With the benefit of hindsight, he should've washed his hands of Tomlin when he undermined Johnson at Huddersfield, or whenever he first became an obvious tosser/problem. Or not signed him in the first place.

But you have to think LJ learned a tremendous amount from his Tomlin experience.

Dave Cotterill also started at Preston, then only featured once more - ie when we were a bit short - again, only as a sub. And Jens Hegeler started at Preston, and featured once more, v Wolves, as a sub, coming on in the 89th minute (probably to slow the game down!)

 

Johnson weeded out bad apples/toxins and the poor unfortunate Hegeler who just isn't cut out for this helter-skelter football; but took too long before doing so.

If he'd acted sooner, I don't suppose he would've been singling Magnússon out at Preston (where we probably would've lost two or three nil, ie no disgrace).

[exAtyeoMax]

14 hours ago, spudski said:

....last few interviews with LJ.

Talking about players playing his way.

Can handle players making mistakes playing his way, but if they make mistakes doing it their way...they are off.

Must admit, I've thought this during our poor form.

Now I know some will say it's LJ deflecting it away from him...but imo, I don't think so.

I've seen people on here saying LJ has told the players to play that way....when playing long etc.

Yet, LJ seems to think differently saying to play our way, in what we believe in, and how we played the first two thirds of the season.

Seems to be aiming a large proportion of the 'blame' at some of the players.

I know some prefer to always lay blame at the manager/coach...but why else would he say this. Seems he's underlining the fact in interviews.

I was wondering who he was referring to?

[havanatopia]

14 hours ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

Yep like Alex Ferguson and Neil Warnock....never criticise their players in public, always keep it behind closed doors and convince the media they were hard done by....LJ last season laid into the players in front of the media - eg PNE away....naive...

Factually incorrect. Plenty of times both have criticized their players down the years.

1 hour ago, lager loud said:

I still believe playing both Diedhou and Diony makes it difficult for us to play our 'usual' pressing game.

Agreed. Diony only merits the bench. Reid and Diedhou it has to be up front.

[spudski]

1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I was wondering who he was referring to?

I'm not sure myself...but have my thoughts as to who. No point speculating though.

[JamesBCFC]

14 hours ago, spudski said:

As for managers backing players regardless... I don't agree.

It's a bit like when Wenger says he 'didn't see it'...we all know it's bullshit.

I like LJ's honesty...it's Fresh. Not old school...why back certain players in public if they aren't doing as told?

He's said he'd take the can if they make mistakes and lose doing it his way.

Why keep protecting them.

Imo...players get way too much 'protection' and managers get way too much criticism.

 

I find Wenger funny when he says that now.

I think he knows everyone knows it's bullshit because he starts smirking before he says he didnt see it.

[Trueredsupporter]

8 hours ago, Robbored said:

LJ selected a team at Cardiff to match them physically as you say but the players didn't perform the way he expected despite knowing what's expected.......now is that the managers fault? 

The point is that LJ should be able to select a match day squad that he knows will play the high press, high tempo passing style and expect them to do so. If they don't.........

 The team against Cardiff was not a side that was going to play high tempo passing football. Why was he surprised that they did not? That is the point isnt it?

[Robbored]

2 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

 The team against Cardiff was not a side that was going to play high tempo passing football. Why was he surprised that they did not? That is the point isnt it?

No it's not the point.........

The squad has been assembled by LJ and the style of play he wants is something very seriously taken into consideration before he signs them.  That said, not all new signings do their best which is why he said to them post Cardiff that if they won't play the way he wants, he'll find players that will.

All the squad should be able to play the high press. They train that way and it's an essential factor in the way LJ wants to see on a match day and he quite rightly gets pissed off when they don't do it.

On SSN earlier today they were asking why Man Citeh are so very good compared to last season. One person pointed out that it's taken Pep 18/12 months to get them playing in the style he wants. His squad is full of top top PL players but only this season are they playing as Barca and Bayern did. 

Its taken him that long........so let's give LJ the time he'll need instead of slagging the bloke off unnecessarily 

 

 

[spudski]

The problem in commenting on this, is we have no idea what LJ has asked each individual to do.

Against Cardiff, he wanted to match physically, and win individual battles...his words. No mention of how he wanted us to play...we are presuming he wanted a high pressing team.

All very well saying players aren't playing how he's asked...but we don't know what he's asked in each game.

Which when giving comments to the main site in interviews can be interpreted in many ways, which isn't good for anyone...fans, club or players.

I'm all for giving good interviews, but they are meaningless if no one has a clue to how he wants people to play.

[JamesBCFC]

34 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

 The team against Cardiff was not a side that was going to play high tempo passing football. Why was he surprised that they did not? That is the point isnt it?

10 of the players who started against Cardiff have been playing the high press all season.

I'm not sure how St Ettiene play so cant comment on whether thats the same for Diony.

[Cowshed]

33 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

10 of the players who started against Cardiff have been playing the high press all season.

I'm not sure how St Ettiene play so cant comment on whether thats the same for Diony.

The front two Versus Cardiff would not be able to do as the team has formerly done. Diedhou does not have the legs for it. The team have been screening behind Reid pressing off him as the trigger.  

[Robbored]

50 minutes ago, spudski said:

The problem in commenting on this, is we have no idea what LJ has asked each individual to do.

Against Cardiff, he wanted to match physically, and win individual battles...his words. No mention of how he wanted us to play...we are presuming he wanted a high pressing team.

All very well saying players aren't playing how he's asked...but we don't know what he's asked in each game.

Which when giving comments to the main site in interviews can be interpreted in many ways, which isn't good for anyone...fans, club or players.

I'm all for giving good interviews, but they are meaningless if no one has a clue to how he wants people to play.

As one of the most insightful posters on here Spudski I'm disappointed that you can't seem to see that LJ is trying to develop an "identity" that is unique to City - much in the way that Pep did at Barca and Bayern and now Man Citeh.

To do that he needs players capable of playing the high press, high tempo game and he only signs player who he considers capable/willing to that. What position or formation should make no difference at all.

All the players should be capable playing in that style. They train that way and eventually it'll become the natural way on matchday. What he tells them individually won't be any different from the core style. However it will take time. It's taken Pep ( the best there is) 18/12 to get his very gifted squad playing in his style.

[Cowshed]

11 minutes ago, Robbored said:

As one of the most insightful posters on here Spudski I'm disappointed that you can't seem to see that LJ is trying to develop an "identity" that is unique to City - much in the way that Pep did at Barca and Bayern and now Man Citeh.

To do that he needs players capable of playing the high press, high tempo game and he only signs player who he considers capable/willing to that. What position or formation should make no difference at all.

All the players should be capable playing in that style. They train that way and eventually it'll become the natural way on matchday. However it will take time. It's taken Pep ( the best there is) 18/12 to get his very gifted squad playing in his style.

Can you highlight how from goal kicks and the ball at Frankie Fieldings feet Lee Johnson is trying to emulate the way Barcelona and Man City play? 

Bayern play under Guardiola played quite differently to the above.

In regards to pressing this is also determinant on how a team passes the ball. Formations make a massive difference to how a team presses. Long ball 4-3-3 is more realistic. Citys pressing style has bene most successful playing it short  with what is at times a 4 -4 - 1-1/4-2-2 meaning players are in close proximity of lost possession with a short distance back to front to get in shape, recover, press ...   

[spudski]

17 minutes ago, Robbored said:

As one of the most insightful posters on here Spudski I'm disappointed that you can't seem to see that LJ is trying to develop an "identity" that is unique to City - much in the way that Pep did at Barca and Bayern and now Man Citeh.

To do that he needs players capable of playing the high press, high tempo game and he only signs player who he considers capable/willing to that. What position or formation should make no difference at all.

All the players should be capable playing in that style. They train that way and eventually it'll become the natural way on matchday. What he tells them individually won't be any different from the core style. However it will take time. It's taken Pep ( the best there is) 18/12 to get his very gifted squad playing in his style.

I beg to differ Robbo...LJ imo, wants many Clubs in his bag. Players that can play different ways, depending on who we face.

I agree he wants to create an identity, and to play his way.

But it will differ slightly depending on who we play against.

When you play Reid and Pato up front...you can't compare them with Famara and Diony. All give different attributes.

You aren't going to get Famara charging around like Reid.

He sometimes wants a physical presence. Which will inherently change how we play.

When you look at Eliason, Kent, Leko of the past, Famara, Diony...do you not see how they offer something different to what you are talking about?

Cowshed is spot on with what he says above.

[Robbored]

3 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Can you highlight how from goal kicks and the ball at Frankie Fieldings feet Lee Johnson is trying to emulate the way Barcelona and Man City play? 

Bayern play under Guardiola played quite differently to the above.

In regards to pressing this is also determinant on how a team passes the ball. Formations make a massive difference to how a team presses. Long ball 4-3-3 is more realistic. Citys pressing style has be most successful playing it short  with what is at times a 4 -4 - -1/4-2-2 meaning players are in close proximity of lost possession in high lines with a short distance back to front. 

Pep is/was working with players of top top quality. Just think of all the internationals he has worked with.

LJ is working with players of vastly inferior quality and naturally his teams won't be able to reprecate the same level of high, press, high tempo that the likes of Barca do.

We all know that to build something well you need the right tools.

[GrahamC]

32 minutes ago, Robbored said:

As one of the most insightful posters on here Spudski I'm disappointed that you can't seem to see that LJ is trying to develop an "identity" that is unique to City - much in the way that Pep did at Barca and Bayern and now Man Citeh.

To do that he needs players capable of playing the high press, high tempo game and he only signs player who he considers capable/willing to that. What position or formation should make no difference at all.

All the players should be capable playing in that style. They train that way and eventually it'll become the natural way on matchday. What he tells them individually won't be any different from the core style. However it will take time. It's taken Pep ( the best there is) 18/12 to get his very gifted squad playing in his style.

Pep took over at Man City in Feb 2016, so surely by your terminology that is 25/12? Or is that Xmas Day?

 

10 hours ago, Robbored said:

Not sure what point you're trying to make unless you're suggesting it was the two Frenchmen who were responsible for the team not playing way LJ expected.

I hate to break it to you but Diedhiou isn’t French..

[Cowshed]

8 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Pep is/was working with players of top top quality. Just think of all the internationals he has worked with.

LJ is working with players of vastly inferior quality and naturally his teams won't be able to reprecate the same level of high, press, high tempo that the likes of Barca do.

We all know that to build something well you need the right tools.

LJ is working with ... Yes. So its not pragmatic to think they can easily move from style to style. 

Barcelona don't press for ninety minutes. Very few teams even attempt it. Barcelona under Guardiola pressed frequently for six seconds at a time. Six seconds! And if they did not get it back they called the press off, dropped into shape and screened the passing options.  

[RedM]

17 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Pep is/was working with players of top top quality. Just think of all the internationals he has worked with.

LJ is working with players of vastly inferior quality and naturally his teams won't be able to reprecate the same level of high, press, high tempo that the likes of Barca do.

We all know that to build something well you need the right tools.

Pep is working with better players, agreed. But we aren’t facing Chelsea, Man U or even Arsenal (!) every week. Our players can beat anyone on their day, but injuries, consistency and of course other managers countering our play sometimes scuppers us.

Anyway, I thought it was Jose that Lee admires, shouldn’t we be looking at what he does to take hints of what Lee likes. 

[Robbored]

5 minutes ago, GrahamC said:

Pep took over at Man City in Feb 2016, so surely by your terminology that is 25/12? Or is that Xmas Day?

 

I hate to break it to you but Diedhiou isn’t French..

No but French is his mother tongue. Same a Kodjia. He's not french either 

[Robbored]

6 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

Barcelona don't press for ninety minutes. Very few teams even attempt it. Barcelona under Guardiola pressed frequently for six seconds at a time. Six seconds! And if they did not get it back they called the press off, dropped into shape and screened the passing options.  

Jeez..................

Do you suppose that I don't know how the high press works? 

I happened to think its wonderful that LJ despite not having top quality players is trying to adopt a similar style. No other City manager have even tried.

[Cowshed]

4 minutes ago, Robbored said:

Jeez..................

Do you suppose that I don't know how the high press works? 

 

In all honesty if you did not understand that formations and the way the ball is passed do affect pressing then yes .. 

[Hellfire Corner]

17 minutes ago, Robbored said:

No but French is his mother tongue. Same a Kodjia. He's not french either 

So that means Bailey Wright is English?

[Robbored]

27 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

In all honesty if you did not understand that formations and the way the ball is passed do affect pressing then yes .. 

Of course I understand how the style works.

Untill now the methodology of the high press has never been discussed on here. Unless of course I was off line when it was.

[Trueredsupporter]

2 hours ago, spudski said:

The problem in commenting on this, is we have no idea what LJ has asked each individual to do.

Against Cardiff, he wanted to match physically, and win individual battles...his words. No mention of how he wanted us to play...we are presuming he wanted a high pressing team.

All very well saying players aren't playing how he's asked...but we don't know what he's asked in each game.

Which when giving comments to the main site in interviews can be interpreted in many ways, which isn't good for anyone...fans, club or players.

I'm all for giving good interviews, but they are meaningless if no one has a clue to how he wants people to play.

I've certainly presumed. and putting it that way what was it he wanted apart physical? this alternative style to me is too far removed from what has been effective. Clubs in the bag yes putting two in up to changes the team massively. looks over thought and over complicated.

 

[spudski]

21 minutes ago, Trueredsupporte said:

I've certainly presumed. and putting it that way what was it he wanted apart physical? this alternative style to me is too far removed from what has been effective. Clubs in the bag yes putting two in up to changes the team massively. looks over thought and over complicated.

 

I don't think we'll ever know tbh.

He picked the team and said it was to match Cardiff physically and man for man, and mentions that we didn't play the way he wanted to play.

Yet he doesn't go on to say what that way was....so we are all just presuming.