SC&T/FAN/Supporters meeting

[Bar BS3]

3 minutes ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I still don't understand the rationale of disabled people paying the same as adult prices. Traditionally there are concessions in place so that everyone can enjoy their pastimes. I find it a bit disturbing.

I do. They are working by the “level playing field” campaign. In which case, why shouldn’t disabled people pay in line with their age category..? They also get one free carers ticket. 

I’m not saying that disable supporters shouldn’t get a concession, but that’s the reason for it being bought in line. 

[RedM]

I have just started another thread on the statement. Maybe we can merge later but just wanted to draw attention to it as it might be lost in this thread.

[Andy Horsman]

Jon Lansdown's concept of what it may be like for a supporter to wait for payday to renew, with well over a month of the season to go, without oceans of disposable income, and in all probability finding their budgeting thrown asunder by the unexpected nature of some of these price hikes, is on a par with explaining bubble n squeak to a Martian. 

[GIBBO THE GREAT]

35 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I do. They are working by the “level playing field” campaign. In which case, why shouldn’t disabled people pay in line with their age category..? They also get one free carers ticket. 

I’m not saying that disable supporters shouldn’t get a concession, but that’s the reason for it being bought in line. 

some disabled supporters chose or don't need a carers ticket its the affordability thats the problem if they were able bodied and could work seven days a week they would be better off financially so could afford to pay the full price  but for many disabled supporters BCFC chose to go down the "level playing field "campaign and priced the 2018-19 season tickets out of their price capability

[LondonBristolian]

1 hour ago, exAtyeoMax said:

I still don't understand the rationale of disabled people paying the same as adult prices. Traditionally there are concessions in place so that everyone can enjoy their pastimes. I find it a bit disturbing.

Speaking as a disabled Bristol City fan - albeit one who is ambulant and doesn't actually book disabled seating for football, though I do for some other things - I completely disagree with the rationale of disabled people getting concessions. The free PA/carer ticket is really important because many supporters cannot attend without that and it would be completely unfair and unreasonable to expect disabled people to buy two tickets to attend an event so disabled people should get an additional ticket at no extra cost but the only reasons I can see to justify offering disabled people themselves are a discounted ticket are:

a) You think you are offering a less satisfactory experience than non-disabled customers. In which case, you should be ensuring you are offering an equitable level of service and charging the same level of pricing.

b) You think that disabled people have less money than non-disabled people. This is, of course, often true. Living costs are 25% higher for disabled people and disabled people are twice as likely to be unemployed. However, any aim to give a discount to people on the basis of low income should be done on the basis of low income and not disability - the solution would be to offer a rate to anyone who can prove they are unwaged or on an income-related benefit, irrespective of disability.

c) You feel a bit sorry for disabled people and want to do something nice for them, which is well-intentioned but quite patronising.

Don't get me wrong - I absolutely get why anyone who was getting discount and now is not will be hacked off, and I can completely understand that. And I think the phasing in is a sensible move in the light of this and it was rather foolish of the club not to anticipate this. But, as the club and someone else has stated, what the club are doing is in line with Level Playing Field's policies as I understand them and is certainly something I agree with on principal. 

[exAtyeoMax]

1 hour ago, Bar BS3 said:

I do. They are working by the “level playing field” campaign. In which case, why shouldn’t disabled people pay in line with their age category..? They also get one free carers ticket. 

I’m not saying that disable supporters shouldn’t get a concession, but that’s the reason for it being bought in line. 

I understand it in their 'reasoning' but traditionally disabled people get a concession. I don't understand it from a moral/ethical standpoint. 

[LondonBristolian]

10 minutes ago, GIBBO THE GREAT said:

some disabled supporters chose or don't need a carers ticket its the affordability thats the problem if they were able bodied and could work seven days a week they would be better off financially so could afford to pay the full price  but for many disabled supporters BCFC chose to go down the "level playing field "campaign and priced the 2018-19 season tickets out of their price capability

Who is to say disabled customers do not and cannot full-time? I certainly bloody do and so do many of my disabled colleagues. As I say below, there is obviously evidence that disabled people are more likely to not be working than non-disabled people BUT then any decision on pricing should be based on giving discounts to all customers who are not working, if that is what the club want to do. Whether or not people are in full-time jobs should be the decision-making trigger, not whether people are disabled. 

[Bar BS3]

10 minutes ago, GIBBO THE GREAT said:

some disabled supporters chose or don't need a carers ticket its the affordability thats the problem if they were able bodied and could work seven days a week they would be better off financially so could afford to pay the full price  but for many disabled supporters BCFC chose to go down the "level playing field "campaign and priced the 2018-19 season tickets out of their price capability

I don’t want to get into this. I know people don’t like the “Devils Advocate” angle of some of my points and it’s certainly not an anti disabled view argument..! However I do believe (possibly wrongly) that disabled people can work. They get benefits to supliment their income and they ask to be treated no differently from fully able people, rightly so. 

In line with that (as with many clubs, apparently) the club are bring pricing in line across the board. 

I can understand it, even if I don’t agree with it. 

[LondonBristolian]

2 minutes ago, Bar BS3 said:

I don’t want to get into this. I know people don’t like the “Devils Advocate” angle of some of my points and it’s certainly not an anti disabled view argument..! However I do believe (possibly wrongly) that disabled people can work. They get benefits to supliment their income and they ask to be treated no differently from fully able people, rightly so. 

In line with that (as with many clubs, apparently) the club are bring pricing in line across the board. 

I can understand it, even if I don’t agree with it. 

Definitely not wrongly. The biggest barrier to disabled people working is often other people's assumptions about what they can or cannot do. As I say above, the key thing is that many disabled need an additional ticket for a PA or carer and that is the essential thing to provide so disabled people can attend games. That is making a reasonable adjustment whereas discounted tickets have little to no rationale. 

[redordead1]

48 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Was Jon Lansdown even at the SCAT meeting last week?

 

On 08/03/2018 at 13:17, redordead1 said:

Hi All,

I've held off writing this because I came away from the meeting last night dissapointed and angry. Hopefully sleeping on it will allow for a more reasoned summary.

The meeting started with Ashton attempting to (rather clumbsily) define the structure of the Bristol Sport, Ashton Gate and BCFC businesses in what appeared to be an effort to deflect the responsibility of the pricing decsions away from himself and BCFC, and on to the Bristol Sport business which is headed up by Jon Lansdown. As others have mentioned above, he then appeared to realise the ramifications of mentioning Jon Lansdown by name and spent the next 5 minutes trying to backtrack and explain that all decisions were of course voted in and passed by the board of BCFC too, a board which Jon Lansdown is also a member of.

It wasn't clear who specifically created the new pricing, but it is clear that both Steve and Jon Lansdown as well as all board members effectively signed off on the new pricing strategy.

Ashton then stated that a "huge amount of benchmarking and consultation" had been done before the pricing has been released and labelled our existing ST prices as "cheap" a number of times and that we are a loss making company and lucky to have Steve Lansdown funding it all. As others have said, he completely failed to understand or show any appreciation that the majority of the room had contributed a far larger respective percentage of their individual wealth for decades more than the current owners and management team. His comical overuse of the word consultation, combined with Dolly highlighting the fact that there had been no real consultation with any supporters group just emphasised how hollow this statement was. He finished this opening by stating how they "need to get better" and "learn lessons" moving forward, failing to realise that the evening was an ideal opportunity to do precisely this and make positive changes as a direct result of listening to what the supporters had to say. It was clear from this point on that this was an exercise in trying to explain away the changes and that no ground would be given.

Gavin Marshall, a CFO with a distinct lack of understanding of what it means to be a football supporter, then laid out in pedestrain terms the new price points. They stated that the disabled concessions were changed because they are effectvely viewing everyone by age now and not social circumstance. Doug Harman then showed the slightest glimpse of empathy (the only example the whole night) by stating that he understood how difficult the rises must be for disabled supporters. When somebody mentioned that there are only 500 or so disabled supporters this would affect, I could have sworn that both Harman and Ashton's eyes lit up. I would not be at all surprised if they view this as an opportunity to make a minor change and one that they can promote and use as PR to show they've "listened to the fans" across the media. 

As Dolly mentions above, Marshall then showed either a complete lack of understanding/contempt for families who don't wish to be financially/socially engineered or moved into the family section. Having admitted that they made an error with the Under 12's in the Lansdown (would this have happended if they had consulted in the first place?) the "enhanced family experience" line was again used repeatedly, with no explanation of what this entails, or why families would want to move away from being sat amongst friends, families that they've spent decades forming close bonds with.

It was difficult to show restraint when Marshall reponded to a few of us explaining what it really meant to be a City fan and the importance of this shared matchday experience with "well you can always move" and Ashton followed up with, football fans always feel like they've got a god-given right to their seat and their part of the ground . If any part of the evening gave a glimpse in to the sheer disregard for the most loyal City fans and the complete lack of empathy, or as others have said, simple appreciation that this is "all a bit unfair" it was this. There is zero respect for those of us who have supported the club up until now, we are simply being viewed as customers. The loyalty programme is clearly a phone app, ST card/BCFC "wallet" designed to reward you with offers based on how much you spend on pies, pasties and pints. Again, this shows such a cynical disregard to how we all feel loyalty should be viewed and rewarded.

The only other concession they made was to look at extending the renewal period for a week to allow people to benefit from two pay checks. "What? Is that pay day is it?" -  Ashton 

Hopefully, this provides a fair summary. I do not for one moment believe I'm speaking on anyone else's behalf. So, for anyone else who was in attendence, please feel free to correct me if I've got anything wrong.

In summary, my lasting impression is that not once did Ashton or any of the others actually ask a supporter how they felt about any of the changes. I cannot imagine any other business (and that's how they class themselves) showing such an amazing lack of respect towards it's most loyal supporters. I want to steer clear of any personal stuff, but I do want to point out that at times the tone, agression and sheer rudeness shown towards fans was completely unacceptable. Pointing a bottle at someone when they have the temerity to ask you a queston is just not on and really unprofessional.

It's clear we are at a watershed in this club's history as to how they view and treat us. Fair play to those at FAN and SC&T for their earlier statement, we really need to show some solidarity and get the message out on this before we lose a large number of very loyal supporters. #fansnotcustomers

Not at all surprised and follows what I thought would happen as per the above.

Spineless statement that completely fails to tackle the main issue of families being forced out of their existing seats and continues with this bullshit "family experience" line. They simply don't care about the historic loyal support.

They are trying to redefine who they want as supporters and the whole match day experience is being built around corporate hospitality and selling more food and beverage. It's a sad time in our history and as many others have said, I've never felt more disconnected from City.

[Desso]

After supporting City at Ashton Gate for more than 50 years, and having a ST for probably half that time, I feel that the time has come to call it a day. Like most other people, I am fed up with the 'suits' taking over my club and creating a 'them and us' mentality. A lot of the points in Jon Lansdown's latest update should have been made at the time of setting the prices, to explain to people why they were doing it. It smacks of 'we paid for the stadium rebuild so we can do what we want, so take it or leave it'. The loyal supporters are the club, not bricks and mortar and the arrogance of the decision makers leaves a nasty taste. An example of this is the zero feedback regarding the stadium lighting and the clearly not fit for purpose tannoy system. 

Sadly, it would appear, that in the last season or two, the gulf between the fans and the decision makers has now become a chasm, with the fans supporting the team and the 'suits' supporting the bottom line on the spreadsheet.  So sad!

 

 

[ZiderEyed]

2 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

You’ve said you won’t be getting a season ticket anyway though haven’t you..? 

Yes, but that doesn't mean I'd like to see my club **** over fans who would like to renew but can't.

It's not like I'm reneging on my support of City.

[Blagdon Mike]

Hello all

CAN WE NOW HAVE YOUR COMMENTS ON THE CLUB STATEMENT SIGNED BY JON LANSDOWN PLEASE?

'The Club' had addressed some issues - the ones they say they went away from the meeting with - is it enough?

The only things left to do immediately are (a) issue a further STATEMENT and (b) consider some form of PROTEST.

I am deliberately not making any comment - we want to hear from you.

If you support either or both - please let us know EXACTLY what you would support.

THANKS!

[ZiderEyed]

2 minutes ago, Blagdon Mike said:

Hello all

CAN WE NOW HAVE YOUR COMMENTS ON THE CLUB STATEMENT SIGNED BY JON LANSDOWN PLEASE?

'The Club' had addressed some issues - the ones they say they went away from the meeting with - is it enough?

The only things left to do immediately are (a) issue a further STATEMENT and (b) consider some form of PROTEST.

I am deliberately not making any comment - we want to hear from you.

If you support either or both - please let us know EXACTLY what you would support.

THANKS!

I would support absolutely any action. Something needs to be done. Particularly I think some kind of visual display early on in the Ipswich game would be good, perhaps a walkout, those not renewing staying in the concourses, or some incredibly witty banner courtesy of S82.

It is an utterly ridiculous statement and conveniently ignores some areas that fans were disappointed with. My trust in BS has completely eroded.

[exAtyeoMax]

2 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Who is to say disabled customers do not and cannot full-time? I certainly bloody do and so do many of my disabled colleagues. As I say below, there is obviously evidence that disabled people are more likely to not be working than non-disabled people BUT then any decision on pricing should be based on giving discounts to all customers who are not working, if that is what the club want to do. Whether or not people are in full-time jobs should be the decision-making trigger, not whether people are disabled. 

Apologies if I've offended anyone but I guess I was thinking how it would affect someone like my brother who has down syndrome and is severely impaired. He usually gets a concession. 'Disabled' covers such a vast array of people it is hard to have a 'one price fits all' scenario.

[Welcome To The Jungle]

19 minutes ago, Blagdon Mike said:

Hello all

CAN WE NOW HAVE YOUR COMMENTS ON THE CLUB STATEMENT SIGNED BY JON LANSDOWN PLEASE?

'The Club' had addressed some issues - the ones they say they went away from the meeting with - is it enough?

The only things left to do immediately are (a) issue a further STATEMENT and (b) consider some form of PROTEST.

I am deliberately not making any comment - we want to hear from you.

If you support either or both - please let us know EXACTLY what you would support.

THANKS!

In my opinion the only further statement that needs to be made is that the SCAT reject the response from Jon Lansdown as unsatisfactory and have therefore got no choice but to move onto option B. I would fully support any form of protest. If you tell me to stay at home, I'll stay, if you tell me to walkout, I'll walkout. What I would say is that it has to be visible and strong. Holding up 'red cards' as others have suggested is a bit soft touch in my opinion. 

Also don't underestimate peoples willingness to help organise something, and get there a bit earlier, like handing stuff out pre-match

[redordead1]

23 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

In my opinion the only further statement that needs to be made is that the SCAT reject the response from Jon Lansdown as unsatisfactory and have therefore got no choice but to move onto option B. I would fully support any form of protest. If you tell me to stay at home, I'll stay, if you tell me to walkout, I'll walkout. What I would say is that it has to be visible and strong. Holding up 'red cards' as others have suggested is a bit soft touch in my opinion. 

Also don't underestimate peoples willingness to help organise something, and get there a bit earlier, like handing stuff out pre-match

Boycott of the bars and food outlets in the ground would be the most effective. Hit them where they are hitting us.

I’d also suggest we need a really vocal demo In the ground. 

[T R]

43 minutes ago, Welcome To The Jungle said:

In my opinion the only further statement that needs to be made is that the SCAT reject the response from Jon Lansdown as unsatisfactory and have therefore got no choice but to move onto option B. I would fully support any form of protest. If you tell me to stay at home, I'll stay, if you tell me to walkout, I'll walkout. What I would say is that it has to be visible and strong. Holding up 'red cards' as others have suggested is a bit soft touch in my opinion. 

Also don't underestimate peoples willingness to help organise something, and get there a bit earlier, like handing stuff out pre-match

I suggest sometime during the second half stand up for 5 minutes holding up a red card or your season ticket or red scarf etc. Then walk out and meet at the fan zone for a good old fashion protest. Do they still have the corporate entrance at the ground? Definitely walking out if the Dolman makes the first move, that's not a joke. Anyone know what the average percentages of the price rises are? perhaps we can leave at that time. unless it is over 100%. 

[CotswoldRed]

4 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Who is to say disabled customers do not and cannot full-time? I certainly bloody do and so do many of my disabled colleagues. As I say below, there is obviously evidence that disabled people are more likely to not be working than non-disabled people BUT then any decision on pricing should be based on giving discounts to all customers who are not working, if that is what the club want to do. Whether or not people are in full-time jobs should be the decision-making trigger, not whether people are disabled. 

So what's your suggestion for how we identify those in need? You're suggesting fans need to produce evidence they are seeking work? 

Some disabled can't work? How do you identify them? 

[CyderInACan]

How about everyone who disagrees just gets up,and leaves as soon as the whistle to start the game is blown? 

[Bristol Rob]

6 minutes ago, CyderInACan said:

How about everyone who disagrees just gets up,and leaves as soon as the whistle to start the game is blown? 

If S82 and FAN have been talking about a protest for the last couple of days they probably have something to share. 

Just seems like they are leaving it a bit late.

Might be worth waiting for their update.

[Bar BS3]

Does anyone know how many of our 15k+ season ticket holders are in the child age categories..?

[Galley is our king]

6 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Speaking as a disabled Bristol City fan - albeit one who is ambulant and doesn't actually book disabled seating for football, though I do for some other things - I completely disagree with the rationale of disabled people getting concessions. The free PA/carer ticket is really important because many supporters cannot attend without that and it would be completely unfair and unreasonable to expect disabled people to buy two tickets to attend an event so disabled people should get an additional ticket at no extra cost but the only reasons I can see to justify offering disabled people themselves are a discounted ticket are:

a) You think you are offering a less satisfactory experience than non-disabled customers. In which case, you should be ensuring you are offering an equitable level of service and charging the same level of pricing.

b) You think that disabled people have less money than non-disabled people. This is, of course, often true. Living costs are 25% higher for disabled people and disabled people are twice as likely to be unemployed. However, any aim to give a discount to people on the basis of low income should be done on the basis of low income and not disability - the solution would be to offer a rate to anyone who can prove they are unwaged or on an income-related benefit, irrespective of disability.

c) You feel a bit sorry for disabled people and want to do something nice for them, which is well-intentioned but quite patronising.

Don't get me wrong - I absolutely get why anyone who was getting discount and now is not will be hacked off, and I can completely understand that. And I think the phasing in is a sensible move in the light of this and it was rather foolish of the club not to anticipate this. But, as the club and someone else has stated, what the club are doing is in line with Level Playing Field's policies as I understand them and is certainly something I agree with on principal. 

Well said that man! I am the same as you but recently needed a help now and then so took up the offer of a helpers ticket (bloody hate the word carer!). I work full time and always have.

I do need a disabled space when parking because I need to fully open my door but why do I also not have to pay?

Feel the same with the tickets. I was though very annoyed when the club tried to make supporters pay the whole lot in one go but feel a good compromise is now in place.

[Meh]

5 hours ago, Blagdon Mike said:

Hello all

CAN WE NOW HAVE YOUR COMMENTS ON THE CLUB STATEMENT SIGNED BY JON LANSDOWN PLEASE?

'The Club' had addressed some issues - the ones they say they went away from the meeting with - is it enough?

The only things left to do immediately are (a) issue a further STATEMENT and (b) consider some form of PROTEST.

I am deliberately not making any comment - we want to hear from you.

If you support either or both - please let us know EXACTLY what you would support.

THANKS!

Personally I’m fed up this is all about disabled and kids - I can’t afford to renew as my ticket and my daughters have gone up over £100 and I don’t want to move from my central location.

I was hoping for a general decrease in price for all personally.

edit - daughter is adult age just to clarify

[redysteadygo1]

My concession ticket in the Dolman Wings will now be increased 40.8% since 2016. There was one year it was frozen. My state pension has risen by less than 3% in the same years. My favoured drink Thatcher's has risen by 5% since the Man Utd game and now the discount has been reduced by 5%.

All this adds up and people who think us old uns are ali well off do not know the full circumstances. A lot of us support our children and their families who may also be struggling in these times. If I give up my pre match drink the price hike will not affect me but the club will still benefit as they only take a percentage of the pint price where as they will take the full SC payment as clear profit.

I will delay my SC purchase until the very latest early renewal date as at the moment the games on Saturday are my only release from a bit of a shit life I have for various circumstances.

[Cowshed]

On 3/15/2018 at 13:08, Bar BS3 said:

I do. They are working by the “level playing field” campaign. In which case, why shouldn’t disabled people pay in line with their age category..? They also get one free carers ticket. 

I’m not saying that disable supporters shouldn’t get a concession, but that’s the reason for it being bought in line. 

No they are not. 

Check my my post history.

In answer to your question many disabled people will receive DLA/PIP. It is often their sole income. It is means tested. This income is not in line with greater society and average pay. To positively discriminate the equality act allows clubs to offer concessionary prices.

[Cowshed]

19 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

So what's your suggestion for how we identify those in need? You're suggesting fans need to produce evidence they are seeking work? 

Some disabled can't work? How do you identify them? 

 Services including leisure services simply ask for proof of disability e.g correspondence from the DWP.