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Gamesmanship and Cynicism


Bs4Red

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The dark side of football, the part of football that people hate the most. The time wasting, cynical fouls, theatrical diving. Everything that is bad about the game. 

However, it’s very much an art of the game and a very effective one used to delay or gain advantages during a match. I see a lot of people on here constantly moaning about teams doing it and how it’s disgusting. 

However it’s extremely effective and something that sides constantly use against us. We never use any of these tactics and that shows the naivety and youth in our squad. Numerous times this year I’ve wanted to see it from us (not because I like it but because it’s necessary)

Those cynical fouls to stop counters (Smith or Bryan vs Preston (a) Bolton (a) for example)

This is something that is part of the game and unfortunately is staying and we need to massively wisen up on. The more experience the players get I believe we will start to see us using these tactics more.   

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If we were competing against teams with a much bigger budget and much better players then I would expect us to do a bit (maybe we need to do more of it ourselves as we are playing against teams with bigger and better squads). As annoying as it it to be on the receiving end of, its is effective and works. Expect more of the same at Burton on saturday.

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19 minutes ago, Bs4Red said:

The dark side of football, the part of football that people hate the most. The time wasting, cynical fouls, theatrical diving. Everything that is bad about the game. 

However, it’s very much an art of the game and a very effective one used to delay or gain advantages during a match. I see a lot of people on here constantly moaning about teams doing it and how it’s disgusting. 

However it’s extremely effective and something that sides constantly use against us. We never use any of these tactics and that shows the naivety and youth in our squad. Numerous times this year I’ve wanted to see it from us (not because I like it but because it’s necessary)

Those cynical fouls to stop counters (Smith or Bryan vs Preston (a) Bolton (a) for example)

This is something that is part of the game and unfortunately is staying and we need to massively wisen up on. The more experience the players get I believe we will start to see us using these tactics more.   

I think a bit of it is part of the game as you say and I think we do do it ourselves to a point. There are certain teams - such as Preston - that take it a bit far though, where it feels like it verges on cheating. 

What particularly annoys me about Preston is the fact they dish it out and laud their ‘aggressive’ players like Pearson but then go down like fairies at the lightest touch and surround the referee moaning and whining about anything that doesn’t go their way.

Yep, I’m sure it works for them, but personally I’m quite happy for us not to sink to that level, even if it costs us a few points. 

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Is Pisano not cited at times on here for this? The 'dark arts' being a phrase associated with him?

People even praised Hörður for this Saturday on here! It's part of the game for sure...

Not something that we are big on however, which I'm happy about- but we're not entirely immune or whiter than white IMO.

Moreover...look at our disciplinary record, it isn't fantastic? Now that could equally be because of our high tempo pressing, but we aren't entirely immune.

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7 minutes ago, RedSA said:

I think a bit of it is part of the game as you say and I think we do do it ourselves to a point. There are certain teams - such as Preston - that take it a bit far though, where it feels like it verges on cheating. 

What particularly annoys me about Preston is the fact they dish it out and laud their ‘aggressive’ players like Pearson but then go down like fairies at the lightest touch and surround the referee moaning and whining about anything that doesn’t go their way.

Yep, I’m sure it works for them, but personally I’m quite happy for us not to sink to that level, even if it costs us a few points. 

Preston should buy a set of referees radio comms for the team so they can just be in his ear for the entire game without needing to make the effort of getting in his face too.

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3 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Is Pisano not played quite frequently on here for this? The 'dark arts' being a phrase associated with him?

People even praised Hörður for this Saturday on here! It's part of the game for sure...

Not something that we are big on however, which I'm happy about- but we're not entirely immune or whiter than white IMO.

Moreover...look at our disciplinary record, it isn't fantastic? Now that could equally be because of our high tempo pressing, but we aren't entirely immune.

I'm not sure the number of yellows is a measure of how much shithousery you commit. In fact it normally ends up in the opposition receiving more yellows. 

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8 minutes ago, RedSA said:

I'm not sure the number of yellows is a measure of how much shithousery you commit. In fact it normally ends up in the opposition receiving more yellows. 

Dunno...number of fouls maybe a better yardstick. We're not immune and we're kidding ourselves if we think we are- but we are better than most, fairer than most.

Interestingly, this table shows only 2 sides worse than us in a Fair Play League by cards...Bolton. Who is bottom, we may ask? Preston...by which I mean the most points accumulated for cards.

Though a different table shows different figures entirely, so now I'm lost! :dunno:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/championship/fairnesstabelle/wettbewerb/GB2/plus/1?saison_id=2017

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18 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Dunno...number of fouls maybe a better yardstick. We're not immune and we're kidding ourselves if we think we are- but we are better than most, fairer than most.

Interestingly, this table shows only 2 sides worse than us in a Fair Play League by cards...Bolton. Who is bottom, we may ask? Preston...by which I mean the most points accumulated for cards.

Though a different table shows different figures entirely, so now I'm lost! :dunno:

https://www.transfermarkt.com/championship/fairnesstabelle/wettbewerb/GB2/plus/1?saison_id=2017

I think at the end of the day you have to use your eyes as this is quite a subtle dark art we're talking about and not one that can be easily defined by stats. Its pretty evident Preston are a team that go out to get under the oppositions skin and use a number of underhand techniques to do so. 

Like I said I completely understand a bit of it, and whilst irritating it doesn't wind me up too much when most teams make a cynical challenge to stop a counter, or waste time going into the last 10 minutes when they're leading etc, I see that as game management. It's when teams set out with this style as a way of playing from the outset that I find distasteful.

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7 minutes ago, RedSA said:

I think at the end of the day you have to use your eyes as this is quite a subtle dark art we're talking about and not one that can be easily defined by stats. Its pretty evident Preston are a team that go out to get under the oppositions skin and use a number of underhand techniques to do so. 

Like I said I completely understand a bit of it, and whilst irritating it doesn't wind me up too much when most teams make a cynical challenge to stop a counter, or waste time going into the last 10 minutes when they're leading etc, I see that as game management. It's when teams set out with this style as a way of playing from the outset that I find distasteful.

For sure- it's fairly subtle and underhand. Maybe we don't use it so much, but the fact we are near them in the table for cards etc this is interesting- but perhaps misleading.

Agreed, from the off really gets to me- timewasting, kicking the ball out, niggly fouls from the first minute- as part of the 'Plan A'- can't abide that. About finding that balance between 'clever' and horrible bastards I guess...Ideally, it wouldn't exist though- for any sides.

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22 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

For sure- it's fairly subtle and underhand. Maybe we don't use it so much, but the fact we are near them in the table for cards etc this is interesting- but perhaps misleading.

Agreed, from the off really gets to me- timewasting, kicking the ball out, niggly fouls from the first minute- as part of the 'Plan A'- can't abide that. About finding that balance between 'clever' and horrible bastards I guess...Ideally, it wouldn't exist though- for any sides.

It is up to the referees to stamp it out .

 I burst out laughing as one of their late subs left the field with mini baby steps which made him look like a complete Colin.

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1 hour ago, Bs4Red said:

The dark side of football, the part of football that people hate the most. The time wasting, cynical fouls, theatrical diving. Everything that is bad about the game. 

However, it’s very much an art of the game and a very effective one used to delay or gain advantages during a match. I see a lot of people on here constantly moaning about teams doing it and how it’s disgusting. 

However it’s extremely effective and something that sides constantly use against us. We never use any of these tactics and that shows the naivety and youth in our squad. Numerous times this year I’ve wanted to see it from us (not because I like it but because it’s necessary)

Those cynical fouls to stop counters (Smith or Bryan vs Preston (a) Bolton (a) for example)

This is something that is part of the game and unfortunately is staying and we need to massively wisen up on. The more experience the players get I believe we will start to see us using these tactics more.   

In fairness I would say that we have been a lot more ‘streetwise’ this season.

Ive seen a lot more players taking yellows for the team at various times.

 

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1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Is Pisano not cited at times on here for this? The 'dark arts' being a phrase associated with him?

People even praised Hörður for this Saturday on here!

1 hour ago, RedSA said:

Its pretty evident Preston are a team that go out to get under the oppositions skin and use a number of underhand techniques to do so.

 

1 hour ago, RedSA said:

I think a bit of it is part of the game as you say and I think we do do it ourselves to a point. There are certain teams - such as Preston - that take it a bit far though, where it feels like it verges on cheating..

I thought, according to the ‘experts’ on here, that it was only Warnock’s teams that are ‘cynical and told to go out and cheat’ - it seems Alex Neil has to now be added to the list....I look forward to an ‘hilarious’ anagram of his name to be used to ridicule him for evermore because he knows how to win games...and Cardiff only three points behind Wolves now, must be something in those ‘cynical, cheating’ tactics that brings success...and Hörður was ‘being praised’ on here for employing the same tactics? Whatever next?!

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14 minutes ago, Major Isewater said:

It is up to the referees to stamp it out .

 I burst out laughing as one of their late subs left the field with mini baby steps which made him look like a complete Colin.

This is the crux of the matter. Referees permit these 'tactics' to be used. We're they to be mandated to take action from the start, the game would be improved. Last night a PNE player ignored the referee's instruction to move 10 yards from a City free kick and the ref took no action. At every free kick they stood over the ball, preventing a quick kick to be taken; they kicked the ball away - on one occasion, Daniel Johnson even threw the ball off of the pitch, having won a throw in just to delay the restart. Never was there any sanction.

I'm fed up hearing the invented term 'game management' which attempts to gentrify cheating. I can accept a bit of it in the last 5 minutes of a match (if we're winning) but doing it in the first quarter of the match? Really? The baby step running off at substitutions; the goalkeeper twice taking a full minute (thats one 45th of the match) from the award of a free kick to restarting the game due in part to finding the exact blade of grass which was planted for that very purpose; a player going down and rolling on the floor simulating injury then getting up and running off without even a trainer being called onto the field; surrounding the referee to dispute every decision; these things have to be stopped and its only stronger refereeing which will ever change things. 

Rugby Union has empowered the referee. The captain is the only person permitted to (politely) question a ref's decision; players who don't retreat 10m from the award of a penalty are penalised by the kick being moved forward; the clock is stopped when the game stops. I've always resisted the game that I love being tinkered with but enough is enough. PNE fans reading this will think it's just sour grapes but I don't want to see what was (but now isn't) such a beautiful game being ruined as a spectacle.

Referees need to enforce more strictly the rules which already exist; a new code of conduct needs to be introduced for the clubs and enforced by the authorities; some new rules need to be introduced. I pay too much money every year to watch a football match (and next season I'll pay considerably more) which is subject to the shenanigans I witnessed last night. It's time to change.

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15 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

 

I thought, according to the ‘experts’ on here, that it was only Warnock’s teams that are ‘cynical and told to go out and cheat’ - it seems Alex Neil has to now be added to the list....I look forward to an ‘hilarious’ anagram of his name to be used to ridicule him for evermore because he knows how to win games...and Cardiff only three points behind Wolves now, must be something in those ‘cynical, cheating’ tactics that brings success...and Hörður was ‘being praised’ on here for employing the same tactics? Whatever next?!

Not really sure what your point is? 

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1 hour ago, Major Isewater said:

It is up to the referees to stamp it out .

 I burst out laughing as one of their late subs left the field with mini baby steps which made him look like a complete Colin.

As long as it takes the subbed to go off, the sub should be made to wait that same amount of time before coming on. Watch them leg it off then. 

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19 minutes ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

He means that Warnock is a great manager and human being who is wrongly vilified and completely misunderstood by everyone else in the football supporting world. Including me.

And me.

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One tactic that really annoys me is when players know the will lose the ball in the air, so they either jump at their opponent, without even looking at the ball - or they wait for them to jump  and then nudge them just as they are about to head it. Cardiff had this off to a fine art, but did the ref notice? its not just them though. No wonder the likes of Flint get frustrated.

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3 hours ago, Rudolf Hucker said:

This is the crux of the matter. Referees permit these 'tactics' to be used. We're they to be mandated to take action from the start, the game would be improved. Last night a PNE player ignored the referee's instruction to move 10 yards from a City free kick and the ref took no action. At every free kick they stood over the ball, preventing a quick kick to be taken; they kicked the ball away - on one occasion, Daniel Johnson even threw the ball off of the pitch, having won a throw in just to delay the restart. Never was there any sanction.

I'm fed up hearing the invented term 'game management' which attempts to gentrify cheating. I can accept a bit of it in the last 5 minutes of a match (if we're winning) but doing it in the first quarter of the match? Really? The baby step running off at substitutions; the goalkeeper twice taking a full minute (thats one 45th of the match) from the award of a free kick to restarting the game due in part to finding the exact blade of grass which was planted for that very purpose; a player going down and rolling on the floor simulating injury then getting up and running off without even a trainer being called onto the field; surrounding the referee to dispute every decision; these things have to be stopped and its only stronger refereeing which will ever change things. 

Rugby Union has empowered the referee. The captain is the only person permitted to (politely) question a ref's decision; players who don't retreat 10m from the award of a penalty are penalised by the kick being moved forward; the clock is stopped when the game stops. I've always resisted the game that I love being tinkered with but enough is enough. PNE fans reading this will think it's just sour grapes but I don't want to see what was (but now isn't) such a beautiful game being ruined as a spectacle.

Referees need to enforce more strictly the rules which already exist; a new code of conduct needs to be introduced for the clubs and enforced by the authorities; some new rules need to be introduced. I pay too much money every year to watch a football match (and next season I'll pay considerably more) which is subject to the shenanigans I witnessed last night. It's time to change.

I agree with all you say.

But...!

As soon as referees clamp down on the things you mention, and start sending off players after 20 minutes, then they will get accused of spoiling games and being too card happy etc etc,  we all know it.

In fact they will get slaughtered by the media, the pundits, the tv pundits, and especially on forums like this.

They get enough shit as it is, the “experts” will always find something wrong with every decision, usually after they have watched an incident 10 times in slow motion and from every conceivable angle available to them from the tv cameras!!.

 

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2 hours ago, Portland Bill said:

I agree with all you say.

But...!

As soon as referees clamp down on the things you mention, and start sending off players after 20 minutes, then they will get accused of spoiling games and being too card happy etc etc,  we all know it.

In fact they will get slaughtered by the media, the pundits, the tv pundits, and especially on forums like this.

They get enough shit as it is, the “experts” will always find something wrong with every decision, usually after they have watched an incident 10 times in slow motion and from every conceivable angle available to them from the tv cameras!!.

 

You're quite right but that shouldn't and mustn't  stop it happening. Too often new refereeing initiatives wither on the vine; for instance, either the sending off of Bailey Wright at Fulham this season has caused all players to cease simulation resulting in the award of a penalty or the sending off of an opponent or refs have stopped the sending off of simulators. We just don't see it punished now. If it's the former, good news. I suspect however that what was an early season focus for refs is no longer a hot topic. 

If new rules are introduced which are for the betterment of the game and that results in a spate of sendings off then so be it. But please let's not have refs become complicit in cheating by turning a blind eye to the perpetrators because occasionally they may be found to make a mistake.

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