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Price of the pressing game.


barneyrubble

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Wonder whether our high intensity pressing game is the reason for our poor run and ridiculous injury problems. 

To play as many games as we have done will have taken its toll anyway but to play in a style which saps even more energy will cause injuries through muscle fatigue.

Since our poor run has started we don't appear to be able to sustain pressure on opponents like we did earlier in the season,we even managed to force man City into errors.

I'm not to sympathetic about footballers being tired but they do look it at the moment. Would be really interested to know what the recovery Lj talks about actually means.Also they don't appear to do a proper warm down after the game.This should be done as soon as possible and for at least 20 mins to remove lactic acid from the body. I would like to think we have proper recovery systems in place but evidence would suggest otherwise.

 

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Man City play a high pressing game without fatigue. 

Our players are less talented, of course, but physiologically no different.

I think it's an easy excuse to make for them. Managers have studied us and worked out how to nullify us. It's now our hand to play and we're not sure what to do. 

 

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2 minutes ago, Barney red said:

True but man City have the luxury of being able to rest any of there starting 11 whenever they want and have at least one replacement who will not weaken the team.We don't even like using subs at times.

Haven't looked at the stats but I'm sure there are periods where Sane and others play game after game.

I'm not convinced at all.

Physiologically, I don't believe you are capable of something to a high level for 5 months and then you suddenly have a permanent dip. If your routine was that detrimental to your body the dip would come after days or weeks, not months. 

And if your assumption is true, then we can be assured there will be no upturn either, unless we ditch the pressing game.

There's nothing wrong with their fitness imo, barring injuries. Like every other club. 

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14 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

Haven't looked at the stats but I'm sure there are periods where Sane and others play game after game.

I'm not convinced at all.

Physiologically, I don't believe you are capable of something to a high level for 5 months and then you suddenly have a permanent dip. If your routine was that detrimental to your body the dip would come after days or weeks, not months. 

And if your assumption is true, then we can be assured there will be no upturn either, unless we ditch the pressing game.

There's nothing wrong with their fitness imo, barring injuries. Like every other club. 

I think there’s a lot in this.  Keeping a high-energy game going for the whole season has to be a challenge, and when you add in the number of cup games we have played and the absurd injury situation it’s hardly surprising that we appear to have run out of steam.  For me, the loss of O’Dowda and Taylor has been key, given what they bring to the team (Taylor often from the bench).  We were never going to be able to maintain the form we showed up until Januray with a paper-thin squad.

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If fitness or tiredness is a problem the obvious thing is to rotate players regularly before it becomes a negative factor.

Give Walsh a start or 2 instead of Pack , Smith or Brownhill, bring Eliasson in for Patterson, rest Diedhiou for Engvall etc.

Not necessarily all at the same time, but bringing in a new player every now and again not only gives a perhaps much needed break to fatigued regulars but also freshens up the team and gives fringe players a proper chance to show what they can do and stake a claim for a more regular place.

If these fringe players are thought of as reasonable enough options to get a place on the bench but not thought good enough to be trusted with the occasional full appearance they are liable to stagnate and become despondent.

LJ must be bold enough give players like these a chance, especially after unacceptably turgid performances like yesterday.

They can't do much worse and he may even be pleasantly surprised!

 

 

 

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36 minutes ago, Barney red said:

True but man City have the luxury of being able to rest any of there starting 11 whenever they want and have at least one replacement who will not weaken the team.We don't even like using subs at times.

Also they don't do the pressing game for that long in a game due to the amount of possession they have. When they do press they get the ball back pretty quickly. 

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6 minutes ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If fitness or tiredness is a problem the obvious thing is to rotate players regularly before it becomes a negative factor.

Give Walsh a start or 2 instead of Pack , Smith or Brownhill, bring Eliasson in for Patterson, rest Diedhiou for Engvall etc.

Not necessarily all at the same time, but bringing in a new player every now and again not only gives a perhaps much needed break to fatigued regulars but also freshens up the team and gives fringe players a proper chance to show what they can do and stake a claim for a more regular place.

If these fringe players are thought of as reasonable enough options to get a place on the bench but not thought good enough to be trusted with the occasional full appearance they are liable to stagnate and become despondent.

LJ must be bold enough give players like these a chance, especially after unacceptably turgid performances like yesterday.

They can't do much worse and he may even be pleasantly surprised!

 

 

 

Couldn't agree more can always have first choice players on the bench who if needed can come on when opponents tire it's the way to do it.

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In all honesty there has not been much evidence of the so called pressing game in recent weeks. In fact a lot of teams appear more energetic, quicker to close us down, quicker to break into attack, quicker to move the ball, quicker to tackle, and are stronger in challenges.

Our play has gone very flat and the speed has gone from our game. Apart from the Sheff W game we have looked second best in most games since Jan.

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45 minutes ago, bobbyhutchscurlymullet said:

Also they don't do the pressing game for that long in a game due to the amount of possession they have. When they do press they get the ball back pretty quickly. 

A fair point. 

But we give the ball away too cheaply too often. Keeping it for longer would help a lot at times. 

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1 hour ago, CotswoldRed said:

Man City play a high pressing game without fatigue. 

Our players are less talented, of course, but physiologically no different.

I think it's an easy excuse to make for them. Managers have studied us and worked out how to nullify us. It's now our hand to play and we're not sure what to do. 

 

If you watch them play you will see they also conserve energy with periods of slowing the game down and passing the ball around at walking pace.

It helps of course that they don't give the ball away easily, which means they don't waste energy winning it back. Not a standard of ball retention we can achieve I fear.

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1 hour ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If fitness or tiredness is a problem the obvious thing is to rotate players regularly before it becomes a negative factor.

Give Walsh a start or 2 instead of Pack , Smith or Brownhill, bring Eliasson in for Patterson, rest Diedhiou for Engvall etc.

Not necessarily all at the same time, but bringing in a new player every now and again not only gives a perhaps much needed break to fatigued regulars but also freshens up the team and gives fringe players a proper chance to show what they can do and stake a claim for a more regular place.

If these fringe players are thought of as reasonable enough options to get a place on the bench but not thought good enough to be trusted with the occasional full appearance they are liable to stagnate and become despondent.

LJ must be bold enough give players like these a chance, especially after unacceptably turgid performances like yesterday.

They can't do much worse and he may even be pleasantly surprised!

 

 

 

Nail hit firmly on the head .

:clap:

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3 hours ago, CotswoldRed said:

Man City play a high pressing game without fatigue. 

Our players are less talented, of course, but physiologically no different.

I think it's an easy excuse to make for them. Managers have studied us and worked out how to nullify us. It's now our hand to play and we're not sure what to do. 

You're right, and games like Cardiff and Burton show that when opponents get the ball out of their own half quickly, we find it harder to play back through them (Fulham on the other hand was a much more attractive opponent to us, as Premiership teams have been too).

But I think @Barney red has raised a very valid point nonetheless. While our players may have the same physique as Man City's, I've long since assumed having seen us press less, that mentally it must be very tough to motivate ourselves to consistently employ the style.

As any armchair part-time runner knows, even if physically you are up to it, the self-belief and sheer bloody-mindedness required to always produce the necessary effort is not easy. A few bad results, a lack of confidence, and it must be hard to rally yourself to still bust a gut.

Up to December was a virtuous circle where the more the players worked, the better the results got, sometimes deceptively (Sheff Utd, Hull). Injuries aside, since our wobble is it now a vicious circle where the poorer the results the less the players believe in running through walls?

And as we've noted last season - this possibly may be the biggest reason for his "feast or famine" streaky nature as a coach - LJ doesn't have the man management tools to reverse players psychology (ironically - the "Always Believe" attribute his dad was much better at).

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Some valid points being thrown around. 

If the pressing game is too much over a season then, by definition, there has to be a plan B. 

We have no (effective) plan B it seems. This is where valid criticism should be applied. 

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2 hours ago, Nogbad the Bad said:

If fitness or tiredness is a problem the obvious thing is to rotate players regularly before it becomes a negative factor.

Give Walsh a start or 2 instead of Pack , Smith or Brownhill, bring Eliasson in for Patterson, rest Diedhiou for Engvall etc.

Not necessarily all at the same time, but bringing in a new player every now and again not only gives a perhaps much needed break to fatigued regulars but also freshens up the team and gives fringe players a proper chance to show what they can do and stake a claim for a more regular place.

If these fringe players are thought of as reasonable enough options to get a place on the bench but not thought good enough to be trusted with the occasional full appearance they are liable to stagnate and become despondent.

LJ must be bold enough give players like these a chance, especially after unacceptably turgid performances like yesterday.

They can't do much worse and he may even be pleasantly surprised!

 

 

 

Agree so much, you can rotate 1 maybe 2 most games (not every game) without ruining the fabric of the side.  Typically this will be needed in your front 6.  We didn’t use Taylor or Woodrow effectively in the time Diedhiou was out, meaning Pato also didn’t get any rest.  Eliasson under-used too.

6 minutes ago, mozo said:

On the Man Can comparison, Bobby Reid has played way more minutes than, De Bruyne Silva or Aguero this season so is more likely to be fatigued.

...and he still looks like he’s fit as a fiddle.

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3 hours ago, tinman85 said:

We aren't pressing. We pressed against Man City away and everyone thinks we are high pressers. Far from it. 

 

3 hours ago, Frenchay Red said:

In all honesty there has not been much evidence of the so called pressing game in recent weeks. In fact a lot of teams appear more energetic, quicker to close us down, quicker to break into attack, quicker to move the ball, quicker to tackle, and are stronger in challenges.

Our play has gone very flat and the speed has gone from our game. Apart from the Sheff W game we have looked second best in most games since Jan.

Fairly simple for me

Since the return of Famara - 

The best opportunity to win back possession is on the oppositions first or second pass before players have time to get a picture of who’s where in regards to teammates and oppo

Our most important man when we pressed high and the trigger for our high press was Bobby Reid (Who is quite brilliant at that high fast press) but  who is no longer in the right place to do that

For all his goals and willingness the return of Famara has created other issues and negated some strengths 

Gain v Loss

(I quite like Famara he brings something and think he may improve but I’m not sure how he fits in with Lees 10 busy bees philosophy)

If we are going to run with Famara Lee needs to rethink our approach

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On 11/03/2018 at 12:17, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Fairly simple for me

Since the return of Famara - 

The best opportunity to win back possession is on the oppositions first or second pass before players have time to get a picture of who’s where in regards to teammates and oppo

Our most important man when we pressed high and the trigger for our high press was Bobby Reid (Who is quite brilliant at that high fast press) but  who is no longer in the right place to do that

For all his goals and willingness the return of Famara has created other issues and negated some strengths 

Gain v Loss

(I quite like Famara he brings something and think he may improve but I’m not sure how he fits in with Lees 10 busy bees philosophy)

If we are going to run with Famara Lee needs to rethink our approach

Out of likes, but tend to agree with this.

Paterson behind Reid for me- because with Reid as the trigger, up the front this pressing game can fall back into place IMO. Unsure how Diedhiou would fit into this currently...first off the bench? Absolutely!

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On 11/03/2018 at 08:41, Nogbad the Bad said:

If fitness or tiredness is a problem the obvious thing is to rotate players regularly before it becomes a negative factor.

Give Walsh a start or 2 instead of Pack , Smith or Brownhill, bring Eliasson in for Patterson, rest Diedhiou for Engvall etc.

Not necessarily all at the same time, but bringing in a new player every now and again not only gives a perhaps much needed break to fatigued regulars but also freshens up the team and gives fringe players a proper chance to show what they can do and stake a claim for a more regular place.

If these fringe players are thought of as reasonable enough options to get a place on the bench but not thought good enough to be trusted with the occasional full appearance they are liable to stagnate and become despondent.

LJ must be bold enough give players like these a chance, especially after unacceptably turgid performances like yesterday.

They can't do much worse and he may even be pleasantly surprised!

 

 

 

But he won't because while he spouts on about our Academy, he hasn't used any except when he is forced to. Best example is Kelly who only now gets a game with Baker, Flint and Bryan out. Same with Vyner, Eliasson and possibly Engvall.All waiting for more than a reluctant crumb.

Before anyone jumps at me, I'm talking about league games not the early rounds of EFL. He's had plenty of chance to give all of these a ten or fifteen minutes sub appearance during the good times before Christmas.

Pathway for the Academy? Only when absolutely no other option.

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On ‎11‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 07:34, Barney red said:

Wonder whether our high intensity pressing game is the reason for our poor run and ridiculous injury problems. 

To play as many games as we have done will have taken its toll anyway but to play in a style which saps even more energy will cause injuries through muscle fatigue.

Since our poor run has started we don't appear to be able to sustain pressure on opponents like we did earlier in the season,we even managed to force man City into errors.

I'm not to sympathetic about footballers being tired but they do look it at the moment. Would be really interested to know what the recovery Lj talks about actually means.Also they don't appear to do a proper warm down after the game.This should be done as soon as possible and for at least 20 mins to remove lactic acid from the body. I would like to think we have proper recovery systems in place but evidence would suggest otherwise.

 

City frequently do not play a high intensity pressing game. Its become a hotchpotch altering game to game. At its best the team was screening then moving off the trigger of the ball entering a zone/off Bobby Reid's.

This form of controlling space and pressing has decreased in unison with City's poor form and the team playing back to front more often.

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On ‎11‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 12:17, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Fairly simple for me

Since the return of Famara - 

The best opportunity to win back possession is on the oppositions first or second pass before players have time to get a picture of who’s where in regards to teammates and oppo

Our most important man when we pressed high and the trigger for our high press was Bobby Reid (Who is quite brilliant at that high fast press) but  who is no longer in the right place to do that

For all his goals and willingness the return of Famara has created other issues and negated some strengths 

Gain v Loss

(I quite like Famara he brings something and think he may improve but I’m not sure how he fits in with Lees 10 busy bees philosophy)

If we are going to run with Famara Lee needs to rethink our approach

This pressing game is a myth.  Johnson has rethought it with Famara in the team and Reid in midfield it stops.

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On ‎11‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 09:44, chinapig said:

If you watch them play you will see they also conserve energy with periods of slowing the game down and passing the ball around at walking pace.

It helps of course that they don't give the ball away easily, which means they don't waste energy winning it back. Not a standard of ball retention we can achieve I fear.

It also helps than Man City do not play lots of long balls. Having players in close proximity to possession means that when its lost the team has more players to win it back quickly. There is a synergy between how Man City pass the ball and work as a unit to get it back when they lose it.

Bristol City are playing the ball longer. Its futile to attempt to get numbers around that lost possession. The connection between possession, lost possession and .... The team cannot work as a unit to regain possession efficiently because it not as compact. 

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2 minutes ago, Cowshed said:

It also helps than Man City do not play lots of long balls. Having players in close proximity to possession means that when its lost the team has more players to win it back quickly. There is a synergy between how Man City pass the ball and work as a unit to get it back when they lose it.

Bristol City are playing the ball longer. Its futile to attempt to get numbers around that lost possession. The connection between possession, lost possession and .... The team cannot work as a unit to regain possession efficiently because it not as compact. 

Really appreciate your insight.

From my view when we play poorly I always think we look "strung out".  Your comments above explain why (I think).

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On ‎11‎/‎03‎/‎2018 at 12:17, BobBobSuperBob said:

 

Fairly simple for me

Since the return of Famara - 

The best opportunity to win back possession is on the oppositions first or second pass before players have time to get a picture of who’s where in regards to teammates and oppo

Our most important man when we pressed high and the trigger for our high press was Bobby Reid (Who is quite brilliant at that high fast press) but  who is no longer in the right place to do that

For all his goals and willingness the return of Famara has created other issues and negated some strengths 

Gain v Loss

(I quite like Famara he brings something and think he may improve but I’m not sure how he fits in with Lees 10 busy bees philosophy)

If we are going to run with Famara Lee needs to rethink our approach

Bang on. Since Famara came back.. Reid is made for it. Famara is not. Bobby was the key. Huddersfield last season was a real pressing team. They knew what they knew what they were about and stuck to it.,

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