what will our accounts look like this year?

[Guest]

Or dosnt it matter a stuff because super steve will simply write off debts or convert them to shares?

Does it even matter that we lose millions every year?

Maybe its different this year with such good crowds and both manchester clubs visiting?

Is there any relevance to actual sustainability? 

Or is that just crap for other clubs to worry about?  not that many are by the way.

Whats our overall debt now? anyone know?

[Major Isewater]

Lots of columns with figures in them I expect . 

[simon uk]

Im curious to know what our breakeven attendance would be?

im sure our revenue this season must be as high as it has ever been, but is that enough to meet outgoings??

[Port Said Red]

I am sure the business wizards on here could put some meat on the bones, but I think this us where the separation and sychronicity between Bristol City and Bristol Sport comes to the fore. 

 

[Davefevs]

I think the 2017 annual accounts show that transfer profit was a major factor in having much smaller losses than recent years.

For this season’s accounts there are some positives (comparing to the published 2017 accounts) :

- increased turnover from bigger attendances, helped by cups.  League games are up 1.5k, but the revenue from cups will be decent

- tv money from cup runs

The negatives:

- increased contracts

- transfer profit down (turned into a loss) unless we sell - who have we sold?  Tomlin!  We might not have needed to sell in the Jan window, but unless we are looking to utilise a big chunk of the FFP allowable losses we are going to need to sell a big one or cull the squad to ease the wages burden of the fringe players.  Players like Engvall, O’Neil, etc are in a group that might need to move on.

Back to the OP, what average attendance would sustain us?  Think we need a bigger stadium!!  Seriously we probably need gates around 25k to generate that missing £10-15m a season.

[Bristol Rob]

1 hour ago, Davefevs said:

I think the 2017 annual accounts show that transfer profit was a major factor in having much smaller losses than recent years.

For this season’s accounts there are some positives (comparing to the published 2017 accounts) :

- increased turnover from bigger attendances, helped by cups.  League games are up 1.5k, but the revenue from cups will be decent

- tv money from cup runs

The negatives:

- increased contracts

- transfer profit down (turned into a loss) unless we sell - who have we sold?  Tomlin!  We might not have needed to sell in the Jan window, but unless we are looking to utilise a big chunk of the FFP allowable losses we are going to need to sell a big one or cull the squad to ease the wages burden of the fringe players.  Players like Engvall, O’Neil, etc are in a group that might need to move on.

Back to the OP, what average attendance would sustain us?  Think we need a bigger stadium!!  Seriously we probably need gates around 25k to generate that missing £10-15m a season.

Guess that the purchase of Baker was almost made on the assumption that Flint was going to be sold.

As it happens, not selling Flint could well be a stroke of good fortune as I would imagine he would now command a much higher fee than the one quoted at the start of the season.

[1bristolcity]

1 hour ago, Bristol Rob said:

Guess that the purchase of Baker was almost made on the assumption that Flint was going to be sold.

As it happens, not selling Flint could well be a stroke of good fortune as I would imagine he would now command a much higher fee than the one quoted at the start of the season.

But getting older, so much the same I would say.

[Curr Avon]

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Lots of columns with figures in them I expect . 

It's what we excel at.

[wendyredredrobin]

Baker would have been a great buy if it wasn't for his lack of fitness, but Flint always seems to be fit.

Baker and flint are our best central defensive partnership, but their combined incomes must be high.

Since Flint is fit for 46 games per year, his cost per game is significantly less. Does he ever get injured?

On the accounts front I'm rather hoping that the stadium is now generating a lot more non football income.

 

[WhistleHappy]

3 hours ago, Major Isewater said:

Lots of columns with figures in them I expect . 

..replacing  'the pillars' ?

[Mr Popodopolous]

Can lose about £21-22m this season and not have FFP issues based on the 3 year rule.

Mind you, look at Wolves, Brighton, QPR...

A cautionary tale- QPR initially lost £9.8m in that season which helped lead to the record fine or at least that was their stated losses.

£60m worth of losses was written off as 'exceptional items'. However it seemed to not help them in the end, so the conversion of debt to equity or similar may not be the solution it seems.

[Mr Popodopolous]

Should add too- example.

We lose £30m this year (won't happen as we're nowhere near those numbers IMO). SL writes off £20m in losses as exceptional item, or just converts them to equity etc. Looks fine on paper...but we're still in this League in 2 years and the FL have spent time analysing. We get a hefty fine. These who devise the rules of FFP aren't stupid, if they make the QPR fine stick, that will set a major precedent.

...Scratch that, rookie error by me- the fines only apply to those who went up and were in excessive breach!

[Monkeh]

4 hours ago, simon uk said:

Im curious to know what our breakeven attendance would be?

im sure our revenue this season must be as high as it has ever been, but is that enough to meet outgoings??

on attendance? prob somewhere in the region of 250k a week,

4 hours ago, Davefevs said:

I think the 2017 annual accounts show that transfer profit was a major factor in having much smaller losses than recent years.

For this season’s accounts there are some positives (comparing to the published 2017 accounts) :

- increased turnover from bigger attendances, helped by cups.  League games are up 1.5k, but the revenue from cups will be decent

- tv money from cup runs

The negatives:

- increased contracts

- transfer profit down (turned into a loss) unless we sell - who have we sold?  Tomlin!  We might not have needed to sell in the Jan window, but unless we are looking to utilise a big chunk of the FFP allowable losses we are going to need to sell a big one or cull the squad to ease the wages burden of the fringe players.  Players like Engvall, O’Neil, etc are in a group that might need to move on.

Back to the OP, what average attendance would sustain us?  Think we need a bigger stadium!!  Seriously we probably need gates around 25k to generate that missing £10-15m a season.

We have Kodja's money over a number of seasons, villa didn't pay us in one lump sum,

[Mr Popodopolous]

The other thing to remember is that FFP is benchmarked over a 3 year period. Rules have changed a bit too.

2014-15 to 2016-2017 season is needed. Aggregate losses for those 3 years, with adjustment to take into account 2014-15 being League One loss limits. I think we're fine for that period.

Assuming we don't go up this season, or next, then this 3 year period will be the one to look out for. Starting this season.

[Davefevs]

23 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

on attendance? prob somewhere in the region of 250k a week,

We have Kodja's money over a number of seasons, villa didn't pay us in one lump sum,

The Kodjia £11m may be paid by Villa to City over a number of years but the notes to the accounts infer that is accounted for as transfer profit (or loss) at the point of transfer.  So something close to £7m profit made (of the £13m total transfer profit) once we’d paid Angers their sell-on clause.

The Kodjia £4m add-ons will be accounted for at the time he hits those milestones.  If rumour is true, those add-ons were bought out during the Baker transfer.

Its a dark art though!

[Monkeh]

23 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

The Kodjia £11m may be paid by Villa to City over a number of years but the notes to the accounts infer that is accounted for as transfer profit (or loss) at the point of transfer.  So something close to £7m profit made (of the £13m total transfer profit) once we’d paid Angers their sell-on clause.

The Kodjia £4m add-ons will be accounted for at the time he hits those milestones.  If rumour is true, those add-ons were bought out during the Baker transfer.

Its a dark art though!

you are also forgeting the money from Balsie and Adomah,

[Davefevs]

25 minutes ago, Monkeh said:

you are also forgeting the money from Balsie and Adomah,

No I’m not....that why I said approx £7m of our £13m transfer profit came from Kodjia.  The remaining £6m came from Bolassie, Adomah add-ons and any other profit from the sales Agard, Ayling, Freeman, Williams.

[Mr Popodopolous]

16 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

No I’m not....that why I said approx £7m of our £13m transfer profit came from Kodjia.  The remaining £6m came from Bolassie, Adomah add-ons and any other profit from the sales Agard, Ayling, Freeman, Williams.

Where do you get £13m from?

2017

£

Loss excluding Player Trading 11,998,751

                           Player Trading*  8,472,663

Loss before Tax                            3,489,513

Is it measured in crude incomings and outgoings- Gross and net, or profit on the players we signed and then sold? i.e. Sell on value?

[Davefevs]

8 minutes ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Where do you get £13m from?

2017

£

Loss excluding Player Trading 11,998,751

                           Player Trading*  8,472,663

Loss before Tax                            3,489,513

Is it measured in crude incomings and outgoings- Gross and net, or profit on the players we signed and then sold? i.e. Sell on value?

A few lines above:

Profit on disposal of players contracts; £13,603,739.

I’m assuming this to be the accounting treatment of players outgoing in the year til May 2017 + any add-ons received from players who we sold in previous account periods (Bolassie, Adomah).

As for the Player Trading figure, I’m guessing that’s the pure money in and money out - as opposed to whether that in or out generated a profit or loss or not.

I’m no accountant though.

[JamesBCFC]

10 minutes ago, Davefevs said:

A few lines above:

Profit on disposal of players contracts; £13,603,739.

I’m assuming this to be the accounting treatment of players outgoing in the year til May 2017 + any add-ons received from players who we sold in previous account periods (Bolassie, Adomah).

As for the Player Trading figure, I’m guessing that’s the pure money in and money out - as opposed to whether that in or out generated a profit or loss or not.

I’m no accountant though.

Could it not be an amount that includes money that won't be spent on wages because of that sale?

Not sure I've phrased that well.

[Davefevs]

7 minutes ago, JamesBCFC said:

Could it not be an amount that includes money that won't be spent on wages because of that sale?

Not sure I've phrased that well.

I don’t think so, that money wouldn’t be in the P&L until spent.  For example my Business P&L Account doesn’t show wages until the month they are paid.

You phrased it fine!

[RobintheRed Red]

3 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Baker would have been a great buy if it wasn't for his lack of fitness, but Flint always seems to be fit.

Baker and flint are our best central defensive partnership, but their combined incomes must be high.

Since Flint is fit for 46 games per year, his cost per game is significantly less. Does he ever get injured?

On the accounts front I'm rather hoping that the stadium is now generating a lot more non football income.

 

we could always get rid of the dead wood sat on the bench every week that would balance the books

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, RobintheRed Red said:

we could always get rid of the dead wood sat on the bench every week that would balance the books

I think there is a lot to be said for that.  Following this summer, what will LJ have had...5 windows?  He should be certain of which players can play a part or not.  Needs to free up wages from those unlikely to feature.

[Mr Popodopolous]

@RobintheRed Red

Deadwood...or depth? With the very notable exception of Diony, it's not terribly clearcut IMO! Given the injuries we have had this year, clear the 'deadwood' (a subjective term) and we would have had to field a reasonable number of youth products tbh. That being the case, fairly sure we would not be a point and  a place off the playoffs.

@Davefevs Thanks for clarifying point. Yet another dimension in FFP that. To me, I keep it relatively (perhaps too) simple. Turnover vs wage bill. Net spend- then any allowable losses discounted.

If after all that, the club's losses are under £39m over the three year period, then we're doing enough to avoid sanctions. 

What interests me is so many on here say Brighton is the model...anyone care to tell me their profits in the 2014-15 through to 2016-17 period?

[Chairman Mao]

Sale of Reid and Bryan in the summer will boost the coffers.

[Murraysrightplum]

6 hours ago, Curr Avon said:

It's what we excel at.

Word 

[bristolcitysweden]

Having money is not an excuse for wastibg it. The Lansdown family should appoint people with some football knowledge. It's Steves toy though. One day he will win the lotteri.

[Davefevs]

1 hour ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

@RobintheRed Red

Deadwood...or depth? With the very notable exception of Diony, it's not terribly clearcut IMO! Given the injuries we have had this year, clear the 'deadwood' (a subjective term) and we would have had to field a reasonable number of youth products tbh. That being the case, fairly sure we would not be a point and  a place off the playoffs.

@Davefevs Thanks for clarifying point. Yet another dimension in FFP that. To me, I keep it relatively (perhaps too) simple. Turnover vs wage bill. Net spend- then any allowable losses discounted.

If after all that, the club's losses are under £39m over the three year period, then we're doing enough to avoid sanctions. 

What interests me is so many on here say Brighton is the model...anyone care to tell me their profits in the 2014-15 through to 2016-17 period?

Here you go:

They haven’t filed 16/17 season yet....only got to 31/03 to do so....wonder if they’re trying to bring them in line with FFP.  £23m to Summer 16, £7m to Summer 15, suggests they only had £9m to play with last year.

 

You can find all of this info on "companies house beta".

This Articlesuggests they lost £40m last season.  That’s just flouting the rules....overspend on FFP, but get promoted, then your 3 years only come into play when you get relegated.  Shows that they gambled in 15/16 season (£23m loss) and failed.  They should be fined heavily if they get relegated, but it will be insignificant with parachute payments!

 

 

 

[BRIAN WILSON]

7 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Baker would have been a great buy if it wasn't for his lack of fitness, but Flint always seems to be fit.

Baker and flint are our best central defensive partnership, but their combined incomes must be high.

Since Flint is fit for 46 games per year, his cost per game is significantly less. Does he ever get injured?

On the accounts front I'm rather hoping that the stadium is now generating a lot more non football income.

 

 

7 hours ago, wendyredredrobin said:

Baker would have been a great buy if it wasn't for his lack of fitness, but Flint always seems to be fit.

Baker and flint are our best central defensive partnership, but their combined incomes must be high.

Since Flint is fit for 46 games per year, his cost per game is significantly less. Does he ever get injured?

On the accounts front I'm rather hoping that the stadium is now generating a lot more non football income.

 

non-footballing income would not appear in the Accounts of BCFC but those of either Ashton Gate Stadium or BS

[WhistleHappy]