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We're coming for you .

This thread is four years old today .....

I hate to burst your bubble, but you appear to have strayed from the Fleetwood Town forum, on to ours.

Well I hope you wipe it up afterwards ?

If this is the case it is absolutely scandalous and proves the EFL and their administration of ffp compliance is not fit for purpose. Villa phone call to the EFL. Villa: "Hi just wanted to bring you up to speed with our accounts and it looks like we will be about £35 million over the ffp limit" EFL " Oh that doesn't sound too good" Villa: "That's why I'm calling because it's not as bad as it sounds, as we are selling Jack Grealish for more than £40million and that will bring us well inline " EFL " When will you be selling him?" Villa: " Soon - very soon" EFL: "That sounds OK then - nothing to worry about. I better ring off now because I've got to get in touch with Bristol City. They worry me I as they've overspent by £50 on their stationery budget so I need to teach them a lesson so that other clubs don't try and do the same thing. Oh and good luck in the play offs hope it goes well and you are soon back in the premier league - where you belong"" Photo of the EFL financial compliance team

The EFL HAVE to close that loophole before Aston Villa can get cracking on that- before the playoff final basically. At minimum they have to make any inflated profit from a related party illegitimate in, struck from FFP submissions. The fact Sheffield Wednesday have a) Delayed their accounts for 2 months i.e. extended reporting period b) Still haven't submitted their revised reporting period accounts and c) If the Times article to be believed, still not submitted accounts that were due in December 2018 to EFL, means that they should have a summer window embargo- well IMO anyway- as a total minimum. I'm talking the weakest punishment. In reality they should have closed it early before anyone could- now it may sound like being wise after the event but they are the Governing body who see accounts...should've been closed in 2016 or 2017 at the latest. Mind you, with the state of play as described by @Coppello what hope is there!! Three sets of scummy cheats- Aston Villa, Derby and now seemingly Sheffield Wednesday- hope for the worst for all 3 of you, decent fans from Sheffield Wednesday on here notwithstanding. Okay the only possible saving grace for Sheffield Wednesday, on the ground thing is if they sold it to an external party and I mean a truly external party, not a related "external party". Other than that, yeah cheating scumbags!

I find it quite depressing! Not about the number of accountants, I am one and we are a great bunch when you get to know us. But Coppello's comments about the EFL's audit of the clubs accounts is a really depressing aspect of the EFLs governance, or rather lack of governance. I know from practical experience how easy it can be to stretch matters when the audit comes along and practice the dark arts of creative accounting, but when you have a governing body giving you a nod and a wink to bend the rules - then what's the bloody point of FFP. The recent audit scandals have shown how lax even professional audit firms can be, let alone a bunch of incompetent amateurs. The only things that do give me hope are the number of articles that pop up about FFP such as the Times one above and the waves that Gibson (and presumably SL) are causing. It is becoming more high profile and clearly there is unrest; the dam holding back implementing FFP hasn't broken yet, but I think the cracks are appearing.

Credit to the excellent Swiss Ramble for this earlier in the year. I am now making an assumption that they got £15m for HS2 as one comment on an article said and that it'd be in this seasons accounts. This therefore is strictly a best case or an ideal case scenario of mine. Allowable loss: £39m + £45m=£84m over 3 years- that's when taking into account allowable costs. That is more than plenty for any Championship club except if one of the top 6 got relegated suddenly for financial irregularities or match fixing say. 2017/18 £36m loss- £15m=£21m 2018/19 *£54m loss-£15m-£12m=£27m Already in Birmingham territory in this their final year of Parachute Payments. About £9m above. Rough calculations though it is, but if this is in the right ballpark- and let's say it is... £54m loss-£15m- so the same as before- put pushing further into the red -£17m parachute payments and £15m in HS2/land and until sales occur, also subtract £7m in profit on transactions. I therefore estimate a loss of £93 million- before FFP exclusions of £15m- so nearly double the 3 year FFP in 1 years!! Or £126m in FFP adjusted losses for the 3 years to May 2019!! Were the £15m this season for HS2 to have been fake news, it'd be £138m in 3 year FFP losses admittedly before sales, loanees and players released. £50m in profit on player sales let's say and £15m in wages saved- or vice versa...even that would have them well in breach. My numbers may not be perfect but they're in the right ball park- what's a few million between friends such as Villa and the EFL In consideration of all factors therefore, I hope Derby smash Aston Villa...then get >11 points and have to rent Pride Park at several £m per year.

I had an interesting conversation with a former Finance Director of a Championship club last regarding the state of the EFL at the moment. He described the FFP reporting as farcical and indicated that the finance department of the EFL were pretty incompetent. Often he would phone the EFL's office, who are based in Preston, and ask Tad Detko (FD of EFL) queries regarding the reporting requirements. In a thick Lancashire accent, Tad would often respond with, "If it doesn't take the piss, I'm happy". It sums up the league's culture towards financial fair play and clubs have pushed their luck more and more. It is quite a contrast to the Premier League who are in constant communication with clubs and drive the reporting requirements. It sounds like those in charge of FFP at the EFL are simply not competent and perhaps do not have the capacity to monitor all 72 clubs.

What are the chances the EFL punish the first non 'big club' who sell their stadium to the owner to skirt FFP and leave Derby/Wednesday/Villa etc alone

He was hoping for a free trip to Jordan where he might find romance with an ostrich*. *Excuse my ignorance of Jordanian ornithology, Bill Oddie, I ain't.

Complications may have arisen from their change of name to Steve Bruce's Sheffield Wednesday.

So looking at the Derby County stadium ownership... The freehold of DY342736 was transferred to GELLAW NEWCO 202 LIMITED (registered 19th June 2018) and registered on 30th July 2018. GELLAW NEWCO 202 LIMITED was incorporated with GELLAW NEWCO 201 LIMITED (registered 18th June 2018) holding the only share in the company. GELLAW NEWCO 201 appointed its liquidators 10 days after its incorporation in a members voluntary liquidation on 28th June 2018. If it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck...

It’s probably wilders toughest fight to date after fury,he showed against AJ years ago that he’s not one to roll on his back after one punch lands on his chin,can he win yes will he I doubt it unless he knocks wilder out

Surely if the submission was wrong, there must be an option to adjust.

@Downend City The EFL have their own accountants which monitor and scrutinise the FFP submissions of clubs. Part of it is based on the financial statements which are audited by an external accounting firm and should provide assurance that they meet the relevant accounting standards. However, there are several deductions made to the accounts to make them more in line with the FFP requirements and the auditors will not look at this as they’re looking at them from a completely legal view. The figures reported in the accounts, less the deductions, will then be scrutinised by the EFL’s accountants. They will have limited information on how the deducted items have been made up, for example they have limited oversight over the total academy spend, the deductions for women’s football, community spend etc. which makes their job a little harder. However, the most contentious piece of the reporting is the forecasts submitted for the upcoming year(s). The auditors will not review these and therefore the whole review is performed by the EFL and this is where the scope for creative accounting increases significantly. In the Premier League, the forecasts are heavily scrutinised and if you report significant profits from player trading, they threaten to hold your hand through the transfer window.

Don't know if you, or any other posters know, who handles the administration and policing of the EFL ffp rules. Do they have accountants or professional financial experts or is it members of the "blue blazer" brigade. At the momnent it reminds me of a 2 Ronnies news story about the Irish Police rushing to a bank in Dublin while a raid was in progress. They sealed all the exits, but the robbers escaped through the entrances. Clubs appear to be running rings around them and one step ahead of EFL's compliance. They are making the EFL look naive at best, inept at worst.

Posting on here, while interesting interesting, merely makes me ( and many others Im sure) more frustrated and angry at the amateurish ineptitude that the EFL appear to be demonstrating and will change nothing. I was thinking that perhaps Copello would do better by forwarding his comments to SL or Steve Gibson, as it needs someone with some clout in the game, and the will to take on the powers that be, if ffp is to be properly enforced and actioned rather than remain the set of hollow words it seems to be just now.

Agreed. One of the best ongoing threads there is.

It's not often I say this, but it's great we have so many accountants here! This thread is extremely interesting reading. (And no, I'm not being sarky)

Yeah, it wasn't exactly groundbreaking stuff but he did say quite a few things which did make me think. I agree with your point in terms of failing the PL FFP requirements, it is bloody hard to do. At the same time, they're marking you pretty tightly and query many of the numbers that go into your forecast. At the club I work at, the PL contact us with queries each week despite there being significant headroom. With a culture as poor as it seems with the EFL, I can't imagine that they can oversee the activities of 72 clubs that closely.

Something I've found quite comedic that hasn't been mentioned on this thread whatsoever is Rovers and Coventry. Last summer, Rovers signed the Coventry head of recruitment Tommy Widdrington. In that summer they also brought in his son Theo Widdrington after he was released by Portsmouth. On deadline day in January, Rovers signed two Coventry cast-offs. One that was not wanted anymore in Jonson Clarke-Harris and the other who had been released by Coventry, Abu Ogogo. Although to be fair to them they seem to have been decent signings, Clarke-Harris especially. They're now linked to two Coventry centre-backs, and apparently want both. Both not wanted at Coventry anymore; Jack Grimmer and Tom Davies. Considering Coventry are a team that Rovers didn't even lose to this season, it seems hilarious they're signing their cast-offs. And so many of them!

This year’s summer window opened on May 6 for the EFL and May 16 for the Premier league.

Their accounting period runs until May 31st 2019- summer window opens in June...unless they can prove demonstrably to the EFL- doesn't have to be public, but it would be nice if a lot more of it was- then surely they'd be snookered for this season in that respect. Maybe...but I prefer to think of it as clubs who abide and make decent efforts- and even mad though it sounds, Derby are better than a few having sold Christie, Hendrick, Hughes, Ince, Vydra and Weimann last 3 seasons to help at least, and those who don't- namely the 2 Birmingham clubs plus Sheffield Wednesday it appears. I mean there are those who will push the allowable limits to the max but won't breach it- Wolves and maybe Brighton spring to mind. In terms of those who sold to help try to ensure compliance, as well as Middlesbrough we have us, we have Norwich- though that was as much solvency as FFP, we have Nottingham Forest, they sold Brereton for £7m, we have Leeds- Wood, Taylor compensation amongst others summer 2017, fairly sure they sold in 2016/17 also, Vieira last summer, they're planning to bring in £7m in sales this summer and that's just early on if papertalk to be believed, albeit they're 2 players on loan elsewhere- helps offset losses though. Then we have those who make small or moderate operating losses anyway, or in an FFP context- made smaller by sales, e.g. Preston, Rotherham, to an extent Wigan, on some levels Sheffield United- I'm sure there are quite a few if I look into it further. Then you have a handful of clubs who think they are above the rules- the 2 Birmingham clubs, though Birmingham City a shambles anyway I'd suggest, Sheffield Wednesday who if the Times article is to be believed haven't even submitted their accounts to the EFL though that could just be poor reporting- another badly run club, and Derby using a profit to cushion future spending/prevention of necessity to sell players. Then you have the stupidest of all which was Barnsley selling Bree, Hourihane and Winnall even when they were already posting a profit for the season and were in the playoff picture- yet Birmingham survived at their expense a year and a half later!! Mix of asset stripping, loan repayments and debt reduction to owner IMO. Perhaps preparation for takeover too. Precedent set- would seem so. I maybe wrong but I don't think they can forbid fair market value even if a related transaction- so £40-41m in the case of Pride Park, but perhaps moving forward they can disallow the profit as illegitimate if sold to a related party- that's the bit that really riles me personally, again Derby because of the aforementioned player sales and compensation for Rowett may just be in it if we strip the £39-40m profit from the sale but pretty hemmed in if they lose the final. In a similar way to debt write offs not counting as income for FFP.

I think that is the angle Gibson and Lansdown are playing at. I see the good intentions of the projected accounts, but the implementation when both 1) club annual accounting periods finish after the end of the season and 2) the transfer window Re-opens before 1, is flawed. Villa will just sell Player X and / or Player Y for £Xm if they don’t go up. Perhaps in Gibson / Pulis / Boro’s case they showed their hand too early in cutting costs? Re Ground Sale, the EFL have already concluded Derby’s was fine....so have set the precedent....haven’t they? Bit late to say they are gonna investigate Wednesday, and Villa if they do the same.

Agree with this- definitely approaching crunch time. Think the Birmingham ruling is now for the duration of this period 1 year- so £13m + allowable expenditure, as they can't be punished twice for the breach which occurred last season. However 6 month accounts to December suggested that they had already exceeded £13m, to the HKSE (Hong Kong Stock Exchange). Birmingham Sport Holdings that is- presumably the overspend would be adjusted accordingly for the points tariff or is that another loophole the EFL haven't thought of I wonder! In short, they might be saved in part by Butland sell on fee- IF it is by June 30th 2019 as that's when their accounts end and also the surely highly likely sale of Adams- again June 30th 2019 would be the deadline. https://almajir.net/2019/04/23/bsh-credit-crunch/ They seem in a bit of a mess though, to say the least- perhaps not just with FFP either! Or it could provide them with some fresh legit income, who knows really. https://almajir.net/2019/02/28/bsh-interim-results-to-december-2018/ Those results. Oh yeah, my point about the tariff thing- if x-y in losses above the limit equals a given number of points then the obvious thing is to divide it by 3- so say £3m overspend=5 points (I know that isn't the tariff but can't remember it right now), then for an adjusted down limit it is £1m overspend=5 points. Bet the EFL haven't covered this base however! For all that, yes they could be allies with us and other clubs in compliance. Inconsistent punishment by law of the same offences is very shaky- in sports law too. CAS proved this with AC Milan last summer.

On that note, interesting story in today's Times. Seems that Sheffield Wednesday have even failed to file accounts to EFL last December- they should be embargoed for that alone at minimum! That article overlooks one point though- they actually- as is their legal entitlement once every 5 years so no rules or laws breached- extended their accounting period by 2 months. The curious one on that list is Leeds- if there are not in-season punishments then they're not in danger. If there were they might be but they have lots of players on their books- them being sold will remove amortisation alone, let alone profit and wages, but then they would have legal recourse if they went up next season for no punishments against others, legal recourse to the CAS. Also read which made me sick, Aston Villa £15m- that's FIFTEEN MILLION- compensation for HS2. Surely fake news?- but then again if we recall, an ex Aston Villa bigwig involved in HS2 in that area?! If true though...Spawniest. Bastards. Ever!

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2019/may/16/pat-lam-bristol-bears-premiership-the-breakdown Pat Lam: ‘Being a Bristol Bear is about more than rugby – it’s a vision’ The former Samoa, Newcastle and Northampton No 8 has worked wonders with the Premiership newcomers who have aimed far higher than mere survival this season. Pat Lam is on the shortlist for the Premiership season’s director of rugby award after steering Bristol not just to safety after winning promotion from the Championship but taking them into the final round this weekend with a chance of securing a place in the Champions Cup. It is easy to look at Bristol and not go beyond the fact that their owner, Steve Lansdown, is the richest backer of a Premiership club. They have made big-name signings, such as Charles Piutau, and the England No 8 Nathan Hughes is joining next season from Wasps, but Lam, who enjoyed coaching success with Auckland and Connacht, is looking to lay down roots that will serve the club for many years to come rather than splurging out to buy success that would be hard to sustain. “I am proud of the effort the boys have put in this season, but frustrated at the number of points we dropped,” said Lam before the final match at relegated Newcastle. “We could easily be higher up the table [they are eighth] but the growth of the group is most pleasing. When you come together as a team, it is what you make of the time you have together and the strong relationships we have built have gone a long way to establishing the Bears’ culture. “A goal of mine this season was to finish it under budget and we have. I am confident that when it comes to spending we will be nowhere near the top. People get confused because they look at what Steve is worth [£1.72bn] and compare it to all the other owners but we all operate under a salary cap. We are way under the cap this season and never once did we threaten to be near it. “Whenever I am approached about a job, I ask what the vision is. What stood out about Bristol was that Steve and Chris Booy [the chairman] were passionate about making a difference in the community. Rugby is successful when it is about more than rugby. If they had offered me the biggest contract in the world but said that the vision was just to win everything and be dominant, all about rugby success, as other clubs told me, I would not have come because it was not what I am about. When it became about community, inspiration and making a difference, I knew I was in the right place.” Lam drew up a five-year plan with the aim of establishing Bristol as a regular in the Premiership’s top four and adding a new shelf to the club’s trophy cabinet. His contract is up at the end of next season but he is in talks about extending it as the Bears look to the example of Saracens, who built success rather than bought it, laying down foundations that endure. “When I came here, 50% of our players were England qualified,” said Lam. “This season it is 70% and it will be 75% in the next one. I am not worried about my contract because I have such a strong relationship with Steve and Chris. We trust each other and I appreciate their support. When we were hammered at Worcester earlier in the season, they reassured me they had my back. We are aligned. “Laying down roots is the key for all successful teams. You need a core group of guys who understand the culture. If a player comes here just to get paid, he is in the wrong place. Before we sign anyone, we look not just at their rugby ability but their character, their coach-ability and their hunger to succeed based on a dream. It is more than a job. Players here enjoy doing community work because it is part of the vision they were sold on: being a Bristol Bear is about more than rugby.” Lam’s playing career straddled the amateur and professional eras and as a coach he tries to distil the essence of the former. “Players of my generation were blessed because for the first half of our careers we played for the love of the game while holding down a job and then got paid for doing what we enjoyed. What professionalism did not change was the team effort and sacrifices that have to be made. “What I loved about rugby as a player was that you were on the field with your best mates, a bond that grew through working hard together. You can think you are having a good time when you are out on the drink but you do not have to play sport to do that. On the field you trust each other and have each other’s back, like the military. “Professionalism is about the way you do things, not money. We are a high-performance team, not a social club. What I learned as a player with Auckland as an amateur was that the focus has to be on standards. We had the likes of Sean Fitzpatrick, Grant Fox, John Kirwan and the Whetton brothers and the approach was professional. I want Bristol to be a Champions Cup team that wins trophies as well as a club players are picked from by their country. We have to make it as close to an international environment as possible so that people do not step into the England environment and think it is a big climb. “When I first spoke to Bristol, there were four things I asked for. The first was the management team. It is not about one person: you have to surround yourself with good people and we have. We are holding player and staff reviews next week and we know there are things we could have done better. People are asking where are our signings: we brought in 22 players in my first year and 11 in my second. If you bring in that many every year you are doing something wrong. “We have Nathan Hughes and Dave Attwood joining. They will bring quality but they have to catch up other players in terms of understanding the club. It won’t take them long but if you had 20 others doing it you would be back to square one. I have been working hard with the academy, ensuring we have local players coming through. That conveyor belt is crucial” Only four of the 23 who featured in Bristol’s opening match of the season against Bath had been involved in their final match of the 2016-17 season before they were relegated. Lam has recruited internationals such as Piutau, Steven Luatua and George Smith but the campaign has been underpinned by young English players. The example is Saracens, not Toulon, and Bristol will struggle to do better business than Lam.

that must be a blow to you.

I wish my career would collapse to the point that I was only getting $25m per job.

About £1.6m like the last couple of years before write-offs of the UWE costs. I can't see that the numbers will be a surprise; there's got to be something else that has caused the delay. It could be ongoing sale negotiations that have either been successful or have fallen through hence the announcement of the AGM date. Filing those accounts will also mean that they can register new players so the drama is delayed a while yet. On a side note The Sun had a story today about how Will Smith's career had collapsed. I was hoping for "that" picture but no.

There are 2 parts to this. The first, and the most infuriating, is that the new rules introduced the requirement to produce projected accounts in the third year so that if a breach of ffp was then identified, sanctions could be applied in the same season. In the case of a club competing for promotion, then a points deduction could then be made to prevent them enjoying the fruits of their (cheating) labours and avoiding the farcical situations that existed when QPR and Bournemouth were promoted, thereby escaping the clutches of the EFL for their ffp breaches. Secondly, when the new rules were announced I am sure I read that they had been agreed with and by the premier league. Whether this means that even if a club is promoted and a breach subsequently comes to light they can be punished and the premier league will accept the punishment I can't say, but the repercussions would be massive if it were the case. What if Villa won the play offs and were subsequently punished, could they be prevented from taking promotion and if they were who would be promoted instead - West Brom might argue that Villa should never have been in the play offs in the first place and Boro will argue they should have e taken the final play off place? Because of the new rules I cant help but think that despite all of our suspicions, Villa's accounts show them to be within ffp. Either that or they are in breach but the EFL are fudging the issue, as they are not brave enough to take on a big club for fear of the legal repercussions, should they fight any points deduction. My suspicious mind makes me think the latter and especially so given that no action appears to have been taken with Derby, despite the accounting slight of hand they performed with the stadium "sale" to avoid busting ffp.

Now this is the story all about how My life got flipped, turned upside down And I'd like to take a minute just sit or kneel I'll tell you how I became the prince of a town called Horfield In west Jordan town born and raised In the watch shop where I spent most of my days Chilling out, maxing, relaxing all cool And all watching Tom Nicholls hitting row Q When a couple of guys, they were up to no good Started making trouble in da fional turd I got in one little fight with a horse and my mom got scared And said "You're moving with Nick Higgs and the Tramp in Horfield” I whistled for a dog and when it came near The Collar said "Darrell” and it **ssed Fanta clear I bought a TV and thought it would fit on a tent spine But I thought nah, forget it, these things take time I pulled up to a slum about seven and a bit And I yelled to the cabby "Yo, homes This ain’t Stamford Bridge” Looked at my kingdom I was finally sealed To sit on my throne as the prince of Horfield

Gibson is absolutely right. Why should Boro be penalised, by having to sell players in order to stay within ffp limits thereby affecting their competitiveness on the pitch, while other clubs unfairly juggle/manipulate/massage their figures, so as to avoid taking similar steps ? There is a real danger that in trying to address and asses clubs' financial situations, the EFL will prove as naive and easily fooled as, well, a referee at Villa Park.