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Can we take this thread back to taking the piss out of the 15ers, and save the political discussions for the other forum please?

Love Frankie but one of his legendary misplaced clearances could completely demolish one of their tents.

Corrected for complete accuracy elhimbrocity!

Yet again this thread is absolutely required reading. Lots of interesting, healthy and intense - yet well mannered - debate. As it should be guys. Love it.

I thought I'd dip my toe back into this thread. Thanks for contributing @DerbyFan, it's always good to have opposing fans views on here and it allows for better debate. I don't want to turn this into a dick waving contest (as I know you already mentioned that you're female ?) but I feel I'm reasonably qualified to comment. I was an audit manager at a big four accounting firm having worked there for 6 years, currently work in the football finance world, have worked on a stadium valuation over the last couple of months and have also discussed the Pride Park debacle with a surveyor who has conducted four different stadium valuations in a variety of locations in the UK. I've commented on here in the past that the organisation that I have a problem with is the EFL for leaving these pretty obvious loopholes open but I think Derby's actions are pretty unethical. I also have a problem with some of the professionals engaged by Derby to conduct the valuation and sign off the accounts. The fair valuing of the players registrations is also questionable practice. I'll start with the stadium valuation, I apologise if you have already responded to some of these points to Mr P. but I've quickly scanned over this thread as there is a lot of posts! I appreciate that you have conducted an 'independent valuation' but it is clearly out of line with the market valuations. The club I work for has had its stadium valued over the past few weeks and the final value was considerably less than Pride Park. The club that I work at is London based and therefore I would've expected the land value to give the London club a significant head start before even considering the stadium itself. This raises a few concerns for me personally. Another club who revalued their stadium per their most recent set of accounts is Middlesbrough. The combined value of their stadium, training ground and headquarters has been revalued at £49.7m also using the depreciated cost method. The notes from their accounts is as follows: This is an excellent benchmark given they were built three years apart and have almost identical capacities. Whilst this does not consider all of the work performed on the stadium during their 20-25 year lives, the values are remarkably different. Middlesbrough is a notoriously cheaper area, I will admit, but this does include the stadium, training ground and other buildings. This does call into question the integrity of the surveyor who performed the valuation. The auditor has a duty to review the report and, whilst they're not experts at valuing stadiums themselves, should consider the credentials of those performing the survey and also perform a benchmarking exercise comparing against other stadiums in the area. As @Mr Popodopolous states, the right thing to do would be for the EFL to conduct its own review but they are completely inept as an organisation and that ship has sailed. Personally I wouldn't sue Derby in the way that Gibson has; as you state you've just exploited a loophole and, whilst unethical, is not against the rules. I was not aware of the way in which you account for the player registrations until I read the thread this morning. I can't fathom how this could be allowed by the auditor having looked at the financial statements. As stated previously, accounting guidance allows the fair valuing of assets in many circumstances and this is not a situation where it is applicable. In the most simplistic terms, there is a 'fair value hierarchy' which considers the reasonableness and the level of judgement exercised. The hierarchy is as follows: - Level 1 inputs: This is where there is an identical asset in an active market. Players are not like barrels of oil where they are homogeneous and there is not an active market of Jack Marriott's being traded daily. Players are all different and would not meet the level 1 input criteria. - Level 2 inputs: These are quoted prices for similar assets in active markets or quoted prices for identical assets which are from inactive markets. In reality, footballers are not really similar assets as the sales prices are so volatile and cannot be reliably measured. Form, contract length, medical history, nationality and age all haze the situation further. The willingness of other clubs to buy a player has a massive impact on the valuation rather than the individual player himself. - Level 3 inputs: These are values which determined from observable sources. For example, Mel Morris' excel model or an in-house assessment of other forwards etc. These are the least reliable and is what the player values are based on. As you go down the hierarchy the relevance of the valuation decreases. The value of players are volatile and are hugely determined by form, injury etc. For example, say Bristol City sign Assombalonga for £20m and in 19/20 he scores 1 goal. This would result in a massive impairment charge of probably about 80% of his value (I say probably because it is impossible to value!). If he then scored 29 goals in 20/21 he would be revalued up to £20 million again, causing massive volatility in the financial statements. If I told my auditor that I was going to use this method, he would laugh his way out of the door before resigning. It is clearly a piece of creative accounting by the Derby County finance team. If I were the audit partner of Smith Cooper Audit Ltd, who sign off the accounts of DC, I'd be sweating that the accounts were going to be reviewed by the governing body as there's some very concerning issues in the accounts. What is even more interesting is that the lead audit partner is a Derby County fan which probably impairs his independence somewhat. As I mentioned previously, it's not the club itself that are completely at blame, there's many other 'professionals' that are failing to perform their duties properly. Apologies all for the length - I'm not sure how many will make it to the end!

Rovers' accounts don't appear to have been mentioned on here for some time now, but I noticed this earlier and thought it quite amusing:

Anyone who engages in violence for nothing but fun, bravado or some misplaced sense of honour is utter low life. The club and society could benefit hugely if they disappeared entirely.

Classic early stand up stuff was ace though - as well as his input in Blackadder. As 'er indoors is off to the Muse gig later I might try and find some of his old stuff on youtube etc

He did start off well before becoming insufferable. A bit like Cotts.

Used to love Ben Elton as a stand up back in the day.

Very true, a very interesting and informative thread, without the infighting that usually pops up at some point in OTIB threads. It does, however, have the unfortunate side affect of making me feel thick as pig shit though

Yea right..i offered to clean up the graffiti for free..my offer was declined

I can't speak for them, it just surprised me due to situations I've seen or heard about in the past. I believe that at that meeting it was said the owners heard the briefing by the EFL's own finance people and were so impressed by it, that they trusted them to get things right. I'll try and find a link, it may have been live on Sky Sports News that this was said, not sure, hopefully there will be an article to back this up somewhere too. That's fine I didn't expect them to say where it was that they worked, but sometimes when people have been together on a forum for a while, things become common knowledge between longstanding members that others don't know so I wasn't sure if others were maybe aware. It may not have been relevant, I wasn't sure, I saw on Zoopla (maybe Rightmove? one of them...) that Derby has had a 12% increase in property values since 2016, that seemed quite high I thought. I don't know about Leicester's valuation, that actually seems low to me, when you think about how expensive stadia are to build these days - look at Spurs ?, but I'm only a layperson. I don't know if they're a good comparison, but on the other Derby venues I mentioned before, the Arena (velodrome) next to the stadium apparently cost the Council £27-28m to build - opened 2015 (I feel pretty sure the land was already council owned, it was built on an existing car park, so I guess the cost may not include the acquisition of the land?) granted theres a huge amount of wood for the track and all the work that making the actual track involved, but the building itself is pretty simple, nice but basic, only 1500 fixed seats. The Assembly Rooms that had the fire in the plant room (which was on top of the car park, not the main building, so very little damage to the main part) will apparently cost the Council £24m to fully refurbish, the cost to replace it would apparently have been £44m for a 3000 seater music and performance venue with car park. It's even costing the Council another £42m to replace an old swimming pool complex. Like I say, I don't know whether those values are at all relevant, but given the relative sizes and complexity of the buildings involved they could be? As an aside, I have no idea - do construction costs vary much depending on location? Or are most of the differences in costs due to location down to the land value, or the actual location itself being desirable? Maybe, but Mel Morris doesn't seem to do that, he's very straight talking from what little I've seen and heard (televised fan forums, radio interviews) (the quotes mentioned before I think show this) he's very compelling to listen to, if you watch the clips of him you mentioned previously, I think you'll see. From those quotes he does seem unhappy that even after offering it and seemingly being ignored, it appears Gibson is still going for us, especially with the things that he points out Middlesbrough having done themselves previously, with their representative saying the same thing he is now ie. it was within the rules. Presumably Forest would be angry because 1. It's us ? and 2. I don't think they can do the same as I think their ground is Council owned. Leeds, who knows, although I did notice they were mentioned by the Times as being close to FFP or something in the article you quoted in your other thread, I believe they bought their ground back quite recently too? Maybe they don't have any book value to market value headroom because of this? Man City are under both PL and UEFA FFP rules - it is the UEFA ones they are supposed to have broken isn't it? We (clubs in the EFL) are under EFL FFP rules, they are not one and the same thing, so surely the situations cannot be compared? That's the thing, as this point none of us know what the EFL did (or didn't) do with regard to it, which is why I asked what if their valuation was the same earlier, we simply don't know, we (as in the fans of the clubs rather than the clubs themselves) may never know, actually even the clubs themselves may never know, apart from a reassurance from the EFL - I'm not sure exactly what is covered under the confidentiality agreement. They haven't gone against the clubs claim that they okayed it though, so I assume that is accepted by the EFL, and presumably the club have the proof of this. That's why I don't understand how the club can be investigated even at the request of other clubs, that would effectively be the EFL investigating themselves, wave something through as ok and then say oh no sorry it actually wasn't. This is not the same situation as Birmingham, they must have known they had flouted the rules, they spent a huge amount on very little income (isn't their wage bill alone something over 200% of their income? Ours isn't great but I don't think I've ever known it to be that bad!) but they made absolutely no attempt to do anything about it, and then bought another player when they were under an embargo. I seem to remember the EFL wanted a 12 point deduction, wasn't it 9 for the amount over and above what they were allowed to lose and then the extra 3 for the aggravated breach? I saw their fans arguing that because they ended up registering the player rather than forcing them to get rid, either temporarily, or permanently, that they shouldn't get punished for that bit. Is this the argument the club used? Is this why the deduction was the 9 points and not 12 in the end? I do see that last part at least as somewhat similar to our situation, if the EFL okayed the sale of the stadium ie. a tangible fixed asset - as we're told they did - and they haven't denied it (not sure whether they knew the valuation or not at this point, however, logically, surely they would have known it was going to be more than the book value, as otherwise why would we have wanted to do it? - the club will know exactly how much the EFL knew at the time though) then we can't be punished for the sale under the good faith rule: I notice that the rule specifically states that only The League shall have the right to bring any action. I assume then that should any legal action that Gibson may bring about mention 'good faith' (I don't know if you can actually sue someone for this?!) then the EFL may not be too happy about it, as it would undermine their own 'good faith' rule? I did notice that you had said that you thought we might be ok for FFP anyway, I also note that the club specifically said (in the accounts - under the 'Financial and business review') that the reasoning for the stadium sale was: As it specifically mentions forthcoming years, I wonder if that is the case. I'm glad that you don't mind my input, I wasn't sure whether I should be here or not, but I thought you might appreciate the different perspective, I'm pleased to see that is the case. I hope I'm not going around in circles (too much...) it's difficult to remember what you've covered before, especially when typing long posts! And it took me a while to notice the multi quote button. ?

I entirely agree. I regard interaction with gasheads as "bants" but for a minority of City fans and Rovers fans it is deadly serious. I don't see why; Rovers are quite literally in a different league and given the absence of wealth of their owners their next move is back into Division 4. I have known several, well four, Rovers' fans in real life and they all accept that they are the second team in Bristol. They even take pride in their second class status. Absolute weapons like Henbury Gas are entirely unrepresntative of their fanbase.

If only the person who created that could spell ‘The’ ....

.... and they gleefully mocked the ‘Ashton Gate Exodus’ before last season when we were paid the best part of £26m for Mags, Joe, Bobby and Aden - now they are watching as James Clarke, Chris Lines, Stuart Sinclair, Tom Lockyer and Jack Bonham have all raced out the exit door before the first week of June is over! And two of them have jumped at the chance to follow Darrell Clarke to league two club Walsall! While another joined league two club Northampton Town! They just keep delivering joyful moments - and that’s why this thread will never die!

Looks like Villa did a derby and sold their stadium to circumvent FFP: really disappointing that clubs are doing this-We are competing with parachute payments and dirty tactics (not to mention refs being against us!)

Tom Lammonby made the squad for this game, next youngster to get a chance perhaps?

Blame the csf

To me, there was something off with AJ. I give him a good chance when he's back to his best.

I'll go have a nosy, that's another forum I like to lurk on! ? So were they wrong about Gellaw Newco 201? Did someone misread and then miscommunicate it somewhere along the line? At least we now know that it was within the accounting period then. Re. Hillsborough, I assumed they wouldn't have sold theirs until this years accounts anyway, 2019? If they were intending to do the sale for the 2018 accounts then it would definitely have been done outside of the accounting period if the above quote about still being registered with the club at 17 May is true? Although I think they are still to file their 2018 ones? I can't see in the rules where profit from the sale of fixed assets is excluded from P&S for Championship clubs, so I'm not sure why they have stated this, unless the rules, in full, are not the same as on the EFL website? The quote I mentioned in a previous post from Mel Morris (article in the Derby Telegraph) specifically said that the sale of fixed assets was allowed in the rules, I can't think why else would you want to sell a fixed asset but to gain a profit? For comparison, Reading, I believe lease their stadium? £1.1m a season, I seem to recall?* Less capacity but at £50m seemingly cost around double to build in 1998 (only 1 year after Pride Park opened in 1997), down South - so more expensive rental value to counteract the capacity? *Actually, their accounts seem to say that their rent is only £750,000 to the parent company. It surely can't be as simple as only the land having the value, because regardless of the limited usage of a stadium (unless you get creative with it being a performance venue) it has cost something to build and/or make improvements to, can you imagine being the person that has to tell Spurs that their new £1bn stadium is now only worth the land value. ? As the Ricoh Arena debacle shows there doesn't have to be a team in the near vicinity to attract a buyer - they were London Wasps weren't they? Sainsbury's presumably would only have been interested in the land though (unless they wanted to branch out into the sport world? ?) which maybe would have limited the value if they were the only interested party at that time?

You might find it aMUSEing

Like many on here, I'm totally at a loss to understand the technicalities of the business accounting world. Except that I have always understood that when money is involved, it is incredible how many ways there are for circumventing the rules. So just a comment on the valuation of a football stadium. When we were trying to get Ashton Vale new stadium approved, we had a purchaser, Sainsbury's, lined up to buy ours. I don't remember the value of the stadium mentioned at the time but it didn't appear to be extortionate. Surely the value of a stadium is not really measured by what it cost, except for depreciation in annual accounts. It has, in my opinion, minimal value as a stadium because unlike a residence or an office block, there will not be many, if any, purchasers. What does one do with a football stadium, if there isn't another football or rugby club in the near vicinity? Pull it down and use the land for another building? Thus, the true value is what it would sell for as building land. Correct? If so the value should be in line with other land in the immediate neighbourhood, if there is any.

Haha, well my idea is that bit more creative though- if you're going to pull a stunt, it should be a big one. Two third parties- sounds a good one! Will respond to all the bigger posts later- saw this on another site though presumably the date indicates the date it was searched- if the transaction occurred later than 30th June 2018 though, it's amazing the flexibility permitted in UK business laws and regs!. Seemingly owned by Gellaw NewCo 201 Limited- which appointed a Voluntary Liquidator within a month or so. Amazing what Company, Solvency, Financial law and EFL regs permit! This was on the same site- Mel Morris likes a Gellaw Newco it appears.

It’s what the Gypos do best.

New "Rovers" reaction. Love it - hover over the poo reaction!

Really like Dave Allen, just say's it how it is. Probably lost to a juiced up Yoka (who he says is the hardest puncher he's faced) He does sound that way, but he split his tongue in the Ortiz fight so that's the reasoning behind it I believe.

. Disappointed for Bonham that he's signed for such an average Div 1 club having turned our offer down. Ye because you’re so massive. What planet do these morons come from

Is this what you say after you leave the Mem on matchdays?

To be fair, when you scroll further down that thread there’s some realistic and even humorous replies ... one even criticising their own fans for similar stuff ...

Laugh, for the sheer joy of life, for the long sunny days of summer, for the bursting of nature in the hedgerows, for the absolute beauty of nature bestowed upon us.

I'm not openly stating that I believe they are bent or similar- simply that if the EFL reported them to their bodies, they should welcome an investigation as they clearly have done nothing wrong. Just a bit of a believer in the saying "Nothing to hide, nothing to fear"- in the same way Man City claimed they welcome the investigation by UEFA then perhaps those should welcome a report to their professional bodies? I think it would be good for transparency anyway- who doesn't like transparency after all. That paragraph perhaps reads a bit flippant though- but there are sufficient questions I think for some sort of report but particularly if there are substantive valuation differences for example. If the EFL's valuation matches the club? Then we have to go with it. It sticks in the craw but we would have to accept it for what it is. A thorough investigation by top of the range accountants, auditors, corporate lawyers and land valuers should take place though and I dare say most Championship owners would agree. I dare say most owners are very rich at this level so would gladly fund it too if they pooled resources- they certainly easily could. The same would go for Birmingham and Sheffield Wednesday too incidentally if they have attempted this. Don't know- wouldn't be prudent for them to put that sort of thing on a public forum, PL in London IIRC? Though again can't remember entirely, definitely a London club- wouldn't presume to speak for them beyond that. On valuation- and I know this aspect isn't so relevant in building valuations, land let alone stadia- you mentioned house price inflation in Derby. House prices rising- well as it goes, Leicester- which is a good comparison- has higher house prices but a lower stadium valuation. Interesting, but perhaps not so relevant. FWIW, Zoopla- Average Property Price Derby- £210,436...Leicester £232,777. Now I know property valuation has little relation to that of stadia, but Walkers Stadium valued in the accounts at around £38m yet Pride Park goes for more than double!? Bit funny no- it isn't London, Monaco or New York- with respect. Hell it isn't even Bristol (£331,554)- yet AG a fair bit less as pointed out by @Coppello . Well that is interesting in itself- see when Villa Park was revalued in 2016, the amount lopped off it was put into the accounts and was down as the cost of impairment. Maybe it isn't obligatory with compulsory revaluations that take place over a given time period, but it is with ones by choice. Only Steve Gibson knows Steve Gibson's motivations. Playing the long game maybe, who knows. Or maybe Morris offered it in a mocking way- only Gibson will know his reasons but I dare say he believes in them. A fair bit doesn't stack up with it- not pointing the finger at Derby here (for once!), but I was under the impression that as well as Gibson, my club were pretty angry over the FFP issues, so too were Nottingham Forest and it goes without saying Leeds. Are they too playing a long game- maybe canvassing support and planning an ambush in the form of a vote at this summer's EFL conference? That would be great! I'll read these articles again now- thanks. Well so they did- EFL should have got in independent auditors and lawyers appointed by them before approving- look at Man City now facing a possible CL ban, to think old cases cannot be reopened is patently a view that is held on shaky ground. Haha suspicious minded? On some things perhaps...on this- yeah. I believe that there are clubs who have been very close to the rules- and actually FWIW I have always had Derby down as being just about in compliance before any such transaction- I have claimed it on this thread pretty often in recent months. Yeah though, I believe clubs may well have flouted the regs or seriously tested the spirit of them, while we and lots more have sold players and abided and it ain't right. It is still possible with a big youth expenditure in 2015-16, that the 3 years to 2017/18 might have had you in compliance, albeit narrowly incidentally! I think it is tight either way, but my main bugbear is that I think given you sold 7 players in that period- 4 or 5 first team and the remainder squad, that if you had breached then the EFL should have applied more mitigation i.e. removed a few from any potential points penalty if guilty due to said sales. Whereas Aston Villa I'd say should have the book thrown, Sheffield Wednesday no real mitigations either but a smaller breach so less punishment. Birmingham got punished and should be watching this with interest. Agreed- I from time to time will look up other forums, interesting to see perspective- Aston Villa the most odious of them all IMO at this level. Yeah fair enough- looks inflated though, £81.1m which while not doubled and doubled again. 50%,, double maybe- something like that. Yeah, input is good- that is the point of forums after all. They certainly can vary club by club and it is definitely an interesting subject- why else would I make this thread after all! ? Think it's interesting in itself and also interesting from a competitive advantage/disadvantage tbh. Wouldn't say I'm so worked up as such. Passionate about it yes, and if honest quite angry at the EFL- they're a disgrace. Echo chambers are no good though, the input has helped stimulate the thread- different perspective always positive I find.

Your mission Agent Litts, if you decide to accept it ...

I’m pointing out that from small actions much bigger ones are born . It was accepted that the Star of David was painted on their properties simply because the owners were Jewish . It showed the hâte which lead to violence and destruction. Burke once said: “The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men should do nothing.” Do you think it’s alright to graffiti the Mem just because it’s the Rovers ? Is it Ok to beat up other human beings just because they support another team ? Respect is an unfashionable word but those to whom we don’t show consideration can harbour deep grudges which often explode in violence . Love and peace people.

Probably done by spotty oiks, who'd had a sniff of the barmaid's apron. If they're caught, let them do some community service removing graffiti around Bristol.