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You have had a lot to say over night, alas you didn't really say anything bar Me me me me me me what about me! **** me you're a whiny little ***, hardship because you were not put first, you probably don't have a clue what real hardship is, there are people out there doing their best to keep people alive whilst risking their own lives and whilst having to spend time away from their own families. There are also people working so selfish muppets like you can get served their shopping and doing that while on low wages, no one is going to starve, no one is going to be evicted have their electricity or gas cut off, if you can't get food because you have no money their are people out there working to supply those that are struggling via food banks. Many people are alone and scared, many have no one, but you know what, we get on with it, we pull our purse strings in, cut back on our food intake and waste nothing and we isolate, and you whine about losing some money. Then to top it all you hope somone sneezes on someones dinner, really! About time you grew up.

And so they should. If anyone doesn't declare all of their earnings to HMRC then they'll lose out, but they gained by not paying their taxes correctly in the first place. No sympathy here I'm afraid.

On a lighter note, this (pre-lockdown) FB post went a little wrong:

Ta, I'm supposed to be working, so trying not to read every post...... might have to take the forum offline during office hours ?

The Guardian can do one

I couldn't agree more with your post, WR. In the case of 'Spoons, what I found unacceptable was not that the owner was interviewed on telly and gave his political opinions: he can believe what he likes. I objected to one-sided propaganda being set out on beermats and pamphlets left on tables in his boozers. It's a sort of insidious political advertising that should not be allowed. It was an easy boycott to maintain, as I never liked the places anyway. It meant I missed my darts' team Christmas Party, but so be it. They knew my feelings, but felt cheap, flat beer was more important. Now, with his awful treatment of employees, I suspect more than just Remainers might be boycotting his sticky carpeted establishments, once they re-open.

Following brexit me and Mrs F refuse to go to Spoons.....I hope a lot more people do the same now.

Well tonights announcement was inevitable. It was always going to happen. And whilst I agree that this is necessary, it should not be something to be celebrated or cheered. Today is a dark day for personal freedoms and liberty, regardless if it is essential and needed. I would like to say that people like Piers Morgan has absolutely not helped in the last couple of weeks. I am sure he feels like he is vindicated now, but tonights decision was always going to happen. All he has done is help to create unnecessary panic, and potentially helped create situations like panic buying at supermarkets. I agree about scrutinising the government but the way he went about it was completely wrong. Also, after this does subside. The world need to look at China. It is not racist to acknowledge this started in China. And its not the first time. Repercussions need to happen. We cant have a situation where a state is allowing these so called wet markets to exist. Or to have a government like China's that try to suppress the outbreak for as long as it did. As we are seeing now, it is killing innocent people across the world.

I'm employed by a very large company so no impact to me working from home on full pay. I think self employed should have benefits open to them in line with the tax they have declared over the last few years. Gig to be fair surely?

There needs to be a list put together of companies who mistreat Thier employees during this outbreak.

...you had one job!

That's very assumptive. In fact any self employed subcontractors pay there tax in advance and its paid by the person that pays them. It isn't like it used to be. Everyone pays by bank transfer. I would say anyone with a turn over of £35k plus simply cannot avoid paying the correct amount of tax. Only the small 'cash in hand' workers have the opportunity to avoid tax. And this will (or should) bite them on the arse now.

I would be more than happy to stay at home. And I encourage any one that can to do so. However, if you were looking at not paying bills, mortgage or even having enough money to buy vital supplies im sure you would reluctantly go to work. The world is bigger than just you and your presentations. Other people are suffering tonight, perhaps think about others and the position there in ?

Going to work tomorrow, Self employed damp proofer I believe it is very much 'essential' that I put food on the table for my family. And that I am a 'key worker' in the regards to feeding and housing my family. It is unbelievable that the self employed have been left behind in all of this. We will have to pay for the 80% wage subsidy for the employed in our next tax returns. Yet we get no help. Creating a massive devide in society. I have supported the government vigorously (even on this forum) I have not got savings to fall back on. The closure of builders merchants WILL leed to looting if this is not resolved very quickly. There are many in a far worse position than me. But expect a huge self employed back lash. Forget us at your peril !

Pasted from BBC just now. Posted at 18:03 Italy looks closely at infection rates Mark Lowen BBC News, Rome For the third day in a row, the infection rate here is slowing. Some 54,030 people in Italy are confirmed to have coronavirus – that’s an increase of just over 7% on Monday's figures. It’s the slowest rise since the outbreak began and is now starting to look like a downward trend in new infections.

Here is the background to your question:- the latest figures from the Robert Koch Institute show that the country has a case fatality rate (CFR) of 0.3 per cent, while the World Health Organisation (WHO) figures from Italy seem to show a CFR of 9 per cent? To say there is a vast gulf between those figures is an understatement. If nine per cent of people who catch Covid-19 are going to die from it we are facing a calamity beyond parallel in the modern world. If only 0.3 per cent of people who catch it die from it, this pandemic may yet turn out to be no worse than seasonal flu which it is estimated, by the US Centers for Disease Control, to kill between 291,000 and 646,000 people a year without the world really noticing. According to John Hopkins University, which is collating fatalities data, 15,308 have died to date. and the probable reason... So which is closer to the real situation, Italy’s experience or Germany’s? Various theories have been put forward for Germany’s low death rate: for example that many of those who have tested positive for Covid-19 are young people who had returned from skiing holidays in Italy. The age profile for those who have tested positive in Germany is certainly much lower than in Italy: a median of 46-years-old as opposed to 63 in Italy. Some have expressed the fear that young German skiers will slowly infect their parents and grandparents’ generation, and that the death rate will steadily rise as the disease works its way through more vulnerable elderly people. Germany is almost certainly behind Italy in this epidemic. But the main difference between Germany and Italy lies in those countries’ respective attitudes towards testing. Germany has carried out far more enthusiastic testing of the general population – there does not seem to be a central figure for this, but the German Doctors’ Association has estimated that 200,000 people across the country have been tested. In Britain, it is 64,000 people. On the other hand, German hospitals do not routinely test for the presence of coronavirus in patients who are dying or who have died of other diseases. Italy, by contrast, is performing posthumous coronavirus tests on patients whose deaths might otherwise have been attributed to other causes. This matters hugely to the Case Fatality Rate for each country. CFR is not to be confused with the genuine Mortality Rate. The former is simply the number of deaths divided by the number of recorded cases. The latter is the number of deaths divided by the actual number of people who have been infected by the disease. Trouble is, nobody knows the latter figure because no country has tested its entire population to see who has or has had the disease. What we do know is that large numbers of people who have been confirmed as having the disease only have mild symptoms – 45 per cent according to Italy’s National Institute for Health. One in 10 have no symptoms at all. There must be many others who have been infected but haven’t been tested and therefore who do now show up as confirmed cases. It stands to reason that the more people who are tested, the more accurate a picture we will have of the mortality rate, the transmission rate and other metrics which will determine the eventual path of this pandemic. To underline the uncertainties behind the data from which policy is currently being made, the Royal Society of Hygiene and Tropical Medicine the other day estimated the number of people in Britain who already have or have had Covid-19 at between 6,000 and 23 million. That is a pretty broad spread with hugely different implications. If only 6,000 have the disease in Britain, socially-distancing the population or locking down society might have a purpose. If 23 million have the disease, it is pointless – it already has ripped its way through the population but without killing more than a tiny percentage. What we really need is a huge effort to test a large randomised sample of the population to see how widespread the infection is. Hopefully, that will soon happen. But in the meantime, I am minded to think that the more accurate picture of Covid-19 comes from the country which has conducted the most tests: Germany. In summary, and what I have said from early on, the ultimate death rate will be no more than 0.5% of those who contract it or, in the case of current data from Germany, even less. Still a ways to go but all the data, reliably being gathered, is pointing toward that. Flu, remember, is about 0.1%. The burning question then will be has it been worth it trashing the world's economies. The answer will probably be 'did we have any choice' ? But that will leave us with a thousand lessons to learn, worldwide, and hopefully next time, because there will for sure be others, the whole world will not need to shut down.

Do you mean arsonists or Daily Express readers?

People have to go to work, there’s many hospitals, police stations, pharmacies, vital industries in London. I don’t expect they’re doing it for a laugh. The frequency of trains has been reduced dramatically, there will be an increase of people on each train even though the actual numbers of people have fallen

Indeed. The devil will be in the detail and in the administration of it. Unfortunately, I have absolutely no faith that any of the schemes being put in place will be easy to obtain. Apparently the "business loans" which were launched with a fanfare last week aren't necessarily business loans as banks are asking for personal guarantees - may as well be a personal loan secured on your own home. Not that I qualify for that anyway but it is a signal for how things are. I'm waiting to see the detail for the business rate relief grants for which I qualify - I'm not holding my breath that they will be grants and, even if they are, I'm certain the bureaucracy will be arduous as local government have been tasked with administering it and they couldn't organise a straightforward piss up in a brewery. The self employed/soul trader/freelancer payments should be straightforward as the HMRC have all the returns - but I bet they will take a closer interest in peoples accounts if they apply for these payments. I don't care about that, all above board, but I'm absolutely positive that it will be a drawn out hassle and could lead to people being investigated later on. Sorry for being negative, and I think the Government have pitched things just right so far, but my experience of past dealings with government agencies leads me to think it will be a huge cock up.

IR35 was brought in originally because IT contractors were taking the piss and not paying their way. the few spoil it for the many, as per norm.

Yeah very much support you sentiment. And your message is 100% correct. Stay at home. I was expecting empty roads and ghost towns today. Shockingly it was as if nothing has happened. Old lady walking to the shop (at least 80) Kids playing in the street. Endless runners and cyclists. I get we need to get me home. But these are easier fixes. Because your right, This is going south. Stay safe fella

Ok, I'll be fair, thanks for replying, I don't think you're the bad guy here, fully understand your dilemma, I've got friends/relatives in similar situations , jobs/business going under , it's a complete nightmare. I don't have an answer , the government are nowhere near having an answer and fair enough I've targeted you to make a point. I'd prefer to have a go at the weekends daytrippers but they're not posting on here. Just begging people to listen to the advice (albeit ambiguous) we're being given, and if not just look at Italy/Spain/France to see what's coming . It's about to become very bad

This article backs that up and doubts the veracity of the scary Imperial mortality modelling widely quoted on here; https://reaction.life/oxford-study-50-of-uk-population-may-be-infected-already/ Hope they are correct. Unfortunately, it looks as if Spain is heading towards where Italy is now; https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/spain/

Again, not taking anything away from people on the front line. This was not even mentioned or implied. So why is this reasonable to some how make my point invalid? We should give those guys everything they need and more. Just want the same support as the employed. It's simple really. That way we can support our NHS by staying at home. We just want the same. Nothing more.

Shouldn't you be self-isolating?

You are being supported. How much do you think front line care staff e.g. auxiliary nurses, care assistants, support workers are paid to possibly put their lives at risk.. Try less than you will get as a damp proofer to stay at home.

Perhaps they are all Ukrainians from Chernobyl. Hardly matters then does it. ?

A bit petty in my opinion, just because you didn't get your way in the vote, I like to think if the vote had gone the other way I would not have been so childish. I admit the bloke can be a bit abrasive but to refuse to use a pub just because his political opinion is different to yours is a bit daft, you would have to boycott half the businesses in the country if that was the case.

Testing for the virus being ramped up. Just under 40k tested in the last week and 84k since the outbreak. But expected to go up dramatically in coming days/weeks - not before time.

As I told a client once, after dealing with a support case, "there's no such thing as a stupid question, just stupid people who ask them."

There death figures don’t include Post Mortem results. If they say your in for a heart problem and die they don’t check for Covid 19. Other countries do test, which is why figures around the world are so confusing/don’t make sense.

A beermat on a table in a pub! That's a rarity these days, there usually locked away in cupboards. As for the Vile man himself he's probably counting the cost of his beer going off. Wetherspoons rely on rapid turnover of product as they buy the equivalent of wine bin-ends.

I agree even though I voted leave. I didn't like the relentless propaganda at all and I didn't like the under staffing to save a few quid with young kids doing 3 jobs at once and getting paid buttons to do it. So I gave his joints a swerve and have only ever used them as a meeting point - literally one drink and out, and now even that is out of the question.

Could not agree more. I was a publican for 10 years and hated this chain and don't have any time for their owner. This is a National Emergency and treating the people who work for you like this is despicable and shows him in his true colours. Needs people to be strong after this is over and support their local ( if they are still open) but be assured as a Barrister he will creep and slither around trying to get his customers back.

That;s made me laugh when I know it really shouldn't!

Do you, for a bit of a laugh, offer a lifetime guarantee on your work to customers who look really frail?

Just had confirmation that it isn't the young that won't heed advice. Although retired I have a business selling pre-owned Mobility Scooters. Just had an elderly customer on the phone with a problem with his. Wanted to bring it up to me to look at. Told him couldn't see him due to the new rules. He hasn't been watching the TV and got quite irate about it !! Said the Golf Club was open yesterday but as I told him, that was yesterday. Then said he must get it sorted as he wants to get out and about and play golf. Incredible

Where I live, Merseyrail have cut the number of trains per hour on each line from 4 to 2, however they've doubled train lengths from 3 carriages to 6 by joining units together so there's no loss of seats. I know not every operator can do that, especially on the Tube, but people having to cram on to fewer services defeats the object completely.

Yes, reducing the frequency wasn’t a good idea, they used to be every two minutes

No tennis on the allowed list @Lew - T ?

Yes but it also depends where you have to get to. Not everyone can afford a taxi at £50 a day across London. I can’t seriously imagine people would put their life in peril because of arrogance. There’s just a lot of businesses in and around London. There may be people who haven’t had it confirmed to work at home yet

I don’t know how people are supposed to get around London unless they put special work buses on, a lot of people won’t have cars.

I can only speak of my own experience in France, but I believe the 'lockdown' is working quite well over here. The lockdown rules are broadly similar (although outlets such as Sports Direct are not considered essential, so have been forced to close!). Two comments, though: Firstly, should one wish to leave the house one must fill in and sign a form (on a daily basis) and, after a few days' lenience, the Police have now become much more strict in ensuring people adhere both to the law and to the spirit of the law - they became exasperated by people going shopping several times a day for a few bottles of beer. The lockdown has undoubtedly had some effect on drug dealing, with the effect that some towns have been obliged to enforce curfews and, of course, this has brought about its own tension. Secondly, there is a fixed system of fines (€135 for a first offence, but rising to €3,750 and even 6 months imprisonment for repeat offenders), which is enforced because, of course, people are obliged to carry official ID papers in France. Good Luck with enforcing your lockdown in the UK - I envisage loads of warnings and requests to disperse, but no real change for weeks. One further difference, although I am sure there are many, is that our supermarkets are full: due to the lockdown, population movement has obviously decreased, but whenever I have gone shopping since our lockdown commenced, people have waited patiently in the queues to enter the supermarkets (5 minutes max, and 'policed' by polite security guards), so there has been no 'need' to storm through past nurses and OAPs as people know they will find all they want inside - and this includes fresh fish, meat, fruit and vegetables, all delivered daily! Be aware, though; be aware and, if not afraid, be very respectful of this virus. I hope I am wrong, but should people not self-distance you are all going to see some horrific figures.

That's fair enough IMHO, levelled the playing field, excuse the pun. Our tax is going to be horrible once all this has passed but it's worth it.

Some years ago, I went to Corsica for a few weeks holiday with my family (wife and two young daughters). I drove non-stop from Paris to Nice and slept for barely an hour before catching an early morning ferry. Finally, having ensured everyone was safely ensconced on board, I just crashed out leaving my wife and girls to stroll outside the ferry, enjoy the sunshine and admire the views. Snoring soundly, I was awoken by my daughters' excited screaming, imploring me to come outside to see the dolphins. Needless to say, they had disappeared by the time I could rouse myself to go outside and look....