samo II

He’s right to temper expectations. Nothing wrong with having a good feeling about things, but progress not promotion needs to be the watch word, I feel.

Agree. I thought it was funny the other day when an article was talking about Ronaldo making his ‘debut’ for Real in a friendly in Ireland; personally, nothing non-competitive counts.

Preseason results are largely meaningless, yes. Preseason performances on the other hand can be a useful indicator of where the team is at. Consensus seems to be we’ve looked better than we did ending the season, so that is a positive. Obviously all goes out of the window if we play like a pack of strangers next week, but I’m hopeful.

Undoubtedly the academy has had ups and downs in terms of player usefulness to the first team, but I think even die hard supporters of idea like myself knew if we never managed to establish ourselves at at least championship level it may have ended up a luxury. As it stands, could very well be part of the thing that saves us after our prior CEO’s slightly risky ‘buy low, sell high’ strategy went wrong. Delighted with the players we’re seeing coming through now.

Say less. If he goes and plays his way out of that league (which I’d suggest is of negligible quality, and not close to English league football), and earns his way back to the level he’s expressing his chagrin at not being given a fair shake at (ie the Championship), then have your words. But I’d suggest it speaks to the situation he’s willing to essentially air his dirty laundry in public like this before having anything to point at. Oversharing is a modern curse.

Couldn’t agree more. From coaching in a different sport where communication is essentially forced on players, you can display very quickly the value of using it, and identifying those who can do it, and those who struggle. It’s a skill that can be worked on - you don’t have to be a natural - but I think it is so often underrated and undertrained in football (in my personal experience).

This made me laugh more than it should.

Presumptive number one? Or one for the future?

Great article, thanks for sharing. Sounds like a thoughtful bloke; no bad thing to have on staff.

I’m not going to argue that data analytics will ‘trump’ traditional scouting methods because they assess different things; you combine them to gain an advantage, you don’t ignore one completely. Exactly. Plenty of examples of players brought in based off pure, ‘gut’ decisions/passing the ‘eye test’ who turned out to be crap. Analytics is a wholistic approach, not just looking at the scoresheet and saying “he scores a lot; let’s get him” or you end up with a square peg in a round hole not because you didn’t study them or their successful situation property - just like with Wells.

There is absolutely a benefit to using data for understanding where a player has some ‘hidden’ ability not showing in more obvious stats or in observable performance - this is one area where you see some other sports, a lot of the US ones especially because of the way their salary rules work - they have to get value from players; the wage structures prohibit them just doing a Man City and buying five players for every position (I know that’s not entirely true but you get my point; there is active disparity in football budgets). However, always seems to be done from a position of “what do we do and what do we need?” so not just looking at data, going “oh he is cheap and the data says he’s undervalued” and signing them regardless of your playing style/existing squad. I suspect that under Ashton we maybe got a little cocky, thinking we could take any undervalued player, bring them in and just find a way of playing them - at one point we had a ridiculous number of central midfielders and felt it kind of had a whiff of that ‘buy every bargain’ approach. Nothing wrong with using data to help guide you to a better value/hidden gem player for a position you need - and the odd speculative gamble can work too - but if you end up with too many bodies in one position, can be more detrimental than positive. The term ‘Moneyball’ gets thrown around all the time, and like in Brentford’s case, it rarely conforms to the what is actually the method. I’d suggest even the most ‘old school’ seeming managers and clubs use some form of analysis now; Big Sam championed it at Bolton, and think that shows where a clever combination of using data and more traditional approaches can really maximise a team’s budget (albeit they got somewhat wild with it at the end of their top flight run). I’m intrigued to see how Brentford manage in the Prem over a sustained period. The nature of modern football really doesn’t allow for teams without incredibly deep pockets to compete at the very top, but be nice to see someone challenge that. I take some comfort/hope (the thing that kills you, I know…) that NP was in part responsible for the Leicester team that did (somehow) manage to break that lock on the premier league despite not having a national wealth fund or similar behind them. My person ambitions are a lot less lofty (just avoid a season long relegation fight) but makes me a little hopeful we can get the most from what we have.

True of analysts/analysis in many fields: they/it can be a brilliant compliment to augment and enhance existing decision making, at times being a significant force multiplier. But if solid data analysis doesn’t marry with more traditional means of assessment, it can just end up numbers. I sometimes wonder how analytics worked in terms of player recruitment under our prior regime, as some of the signings whiffed of ‘stat solo’ decision making, with someone fitting a lot of criteria when you ran the numbers, but who simply didn’t show the required skills on tape.

Was coming here to post about that match - embodied the accountability and attitude of the team then; no passengers, and the senior pros led very much by example, including owning mistakes. Wade’s goal felt like the manifestation of all that. 100% - Was a sense we just had ‘The Right Stuff’ after that moment, and went on to be the case.

He’s going to end up at bloody Rovers, isn’t he?

If that’s him done, feel sorry for him but fair play: one of those who absolutely left it all out there, and I will remember him fondly. But you can’t mess about with concussions/head trauma. Obviously been huge adjustments in American football because of the evidence behind its role in serious long term damage to players, and same is/should be being looked at in other sports like rugby and football. Wish Baker all the very best in his recovery and future.

Once again the football forum descends into culture war bollocks. Boring af. Can this thread **** off to ‘Politics’ or something as it’s really naff all to do with football, and especially our club.

I mean we all know you hate GJ because he embarrassed you, so you’re hardly an unbiased viewpoint. Funny for someone you’ve so little care for you’re always posting about how shite he was at every possible opportunity, no matter how tenuous the link. Your obvious personal vendetta is getting really old.

I agree with this. He wasn’t the worst, he wasn’t the best, and he overstayed his welcome. Some of his teams played good football, were fun to watch, and gave us some decent runs; some of his teams were trash. The Andi comment is funny because, yes; LJ didn’t really use him as he should, so him taking credit is silly. But people making that some kind of big meaningful thing about his time here isn’t it. He’ll probably do okay at Hibs; like others say, the standard is wildly uneven up there, even player-to-player in the same team, so if he gets a bit of luck and has learnt a few lessons, might be able to crave out some results.

I have a feeling it’s Jamie Mac for some reason; literally no knowledge on my part, just that’s someone I could see willing to speak about their time here who might have some interesting stuff to say.

So… Did we ever work out who Gregor had interviewed?

Hopefully we’ll find that balance. Like with everything; extreme approaches can often end up over extending themselves. Where we are right now we maybe need to be more conservative in terms of having a competitive team in front of anything else, but unless we end up in the Prem we’ll likely always have to be open to selling anyone decent for a solid price.

Completely agree. Palmer was the ‘process’ overreaching due to prior success and showing the flaws in using it as a guiding principle regards player acquisition. Problem was the flaws compounded while the successes didn’t (ie we had to keep paying a non-contributor who wasn’t increasing in value, while the transfer fees for those we sold were already absorbed), hence the pivot away from the model. I look at the signings we’re making now and while possibly seen by some as underwhelming, they represent to me a more pragmatic approach to team building; get in vets with a bit of experience at this level, and match them with some some promising players looking to step up from leagues one/two and the youth players. For me, that’s the best way of developing a team at this level when you are not in a position to simply spend your way out of it like a recently relegated or bought out side.

Agreed. It was baffling and I think was seen as an opportunity to get him for what was seen as cheap at the time. DaSilva I think was similar, in that we got him to sell him; at least he’s looked half decent and contributed, but Palmer has unfortunately been an absolute failure. Wish we’d left it at Smozdics and tried him instead. Never got a shot here.

He’s probably the definitive late Ashton era signing - lots of promise/potential that only flashed previously, bought for a decent sum with the expectation he’d shine for us, ultimately move on and play his best football elsewhere, but make us back the money spent and more in the process, enabling us to rinse-&-repeat. Problem is (and as it was in this case), if that ‘process’ doesn’t pay off, we stuck with an ‘asset’ that contributes little but costs a lot. Sure he’ll do fine elsewhere but absolute failure for us, sadly.

Fair, but lies, damn lies and statistics - we’re not great, but think when you consider the players we have right now (not great) compared to the performances we got from ‘better’ collections of players over the last few years, we’re doing about how I’d expect compared to massively underachieving.