Alessandro

10 minutes ago, Fuber said:

My only caveat is that Hyam and MacFadzean have gifted us all five goals.

Aside from that, solid, organised, nice 'patterns'. Strong performances across the pitch.

Would be more bouyed if Knight takes that Pring full back and smashes it in when 2-0 up. As would then be an open play goal not directly from an error or penalty, but that's obviously nitpicking.

Yes it’s nice win but you’re absolutely right.

I don’t think you can understate how poor Blackburn were tonight.

If a team wins 5-0 either you’re meeting a hugely talented attacking team or the losing team have capitulated.

Given the fact we’ve only won a game by more than 2 goals 3 times all season and only 8 teams in the league have scored less goals than us…

Add in Blackburn’s current bottom 6 form and the fact they have the 2nd leakiest defence in the league.

Suggests more of the latter.

A nice win yes, credit for that - but IMo people probably shouldn’t get too carried away though on the back of tonight…

A little run of good results is nothing particularly new, we’ve been streaky for years.

Can Manning make us more consistent? 

Personally (not getting heady after winning 5 nil) I’m reserving judgment for a longer sample of games - especially as in the last few results we’ve been on the right end of some awful finishing (Vardy), Max at his best on multiple occasions and a Blackburn side that gifted, literally handed us 4 goals tonight. 

False dawn or not? Eitherway, we’ll find out next season as Manning will have his shot…

Am I right, they’ve had £19 MILLION of tax payers money, just to “clear the site”?

This ******* country…..

Steve Torpey - fills a gap in our squad…..

21 hours ago, Kibs said:

The use of Top 6 / Promotion quotes do crack me up.

If JL/BT told you to jump off a cliff because it’s good for your health, would you do it? Or would you use your brain and reach your own conclusion? 

Our squad is weaker this season than last season IMO, certainly not stronger!

Alex Scott was never adequately replaced, Antoine Semenyo was never adequately replaced - why on earth anyone feels we should even be competing for a Top 6 spot, regardless of the manager……I just cannot subscribe to that view.  

I could just never see where the creativity and goals would come from.

Had NP been given the opportunity to use the Alex Scott money, I think we could potentially have had a bit of a go, but the second that was denied, I could never see us being anything more than mid-table. 

No offence but I don’t think that is good analogy at all.

No one is on here moaning about “Lansdown said we were getting promoted and now we aren’t, I want my promotion they promised”

No one is complaining because we aren’t getting promoted this season. No one is saying that’s what they expected. It’s the club talking about promotion. 99% knew it was unrealistic.

The issue for me is the disconnect between what they say and the reality. Why do they say it?

Does that matter? That’s the whole debate, should they be held accountable for their comments?

I suppose it depends on what you think of their role as stewards of the club? 

Is Bristol City there simply to exist or to genuinely strive to get as far up the pyramid as possible?

I think when the club say one thing and do another they open themselves up to criticism and I think it’s fair for fans to ask those questions about the methodology - especially if the aim is more than simply ‘existing’

51 minutes ago, phantom said:

Thank you, you have confirmed that nobody actually said anything about guaranteeing top 6 etc, just that we want to get promoted this year

Perhaps people can stop using that line now as it is proven to be incorrect?

Certainly not the first City Manager in recent times that have been expected to cut costs etc and stay in the league

Yes there is no direct “top 6” quote (although to all but the most belligerent, top 6 is implied in the word promotion) - actually I think what they said was worse - “promotion” specifically mentioned on numerous occasions.

So note for everyone on OTIB - yes the club didn’t want Manning to simply get us into the top 6 - they wanted PROMOTION.

Just for future yard stick reference in discussions regarding his performance.
 

Happy for mods to pin this comment to avoid future confusion. 

5 hours ago, phantom said:

Again, nobody actually said it 

For those that keep quoting the top six comments, I'm pretty sure that's a misquote as well 

Though we were promised European football under LJ weren't we? 

Really? Why do people keep saying they never said this?!?…..:

“We all wanted Nigel to achieve our ambition to be promoted but, with our recent results, feel that now is the time to make a change to give the club the best possible chance of success.” - JL

‘We want to get promoted this year' - Bristol City board on decision to sack Nigel Pearson - from Gavin Marshall

https://www.bcfc.co.uk/video/interviews/jon-lansdown-talks-about-coaching-change/ 

Takes JL 30 seconds to mention premier league and best squad we’ve had here in my time - to name a few quick quotes.

28 minutes ago, Ashtongreight said:

Context comes before, ie that was his target when he arrived, excuses are afterwards if the target is not communicated at the beginning. That’s why we were patient with him, he levelled with us from the beginning. 
 

edit

compare that to this time when the communication was LM would improve us THIS season, hence why many judge LM so harshly, now it IS excuses.

Presume you’re referring in first paragraph to Pearson? Second Manning.

I don’t disagree with you - but my point is what do both those statements have in common? 

The one denominator - Steve Lansdown and his board - A) Pearson and Gould clearing up THEIR mess and B) Manning getting it from the fans because THEY again set him up for failure with their top 6 comments.

1 hour ago, firstdivision said:

Of course. We should always strive to achieve and be successful. I was merely trying to provide some context. 

Plus, I remember some serious investment a few seasons back but that landed us in huge financial peril after Covid. It was not such a long ago we were second in the league at Christmas as a result of that investment. It’s not easy getting the balance right. 

As I say, one man’s context is another man’s excuses…

The second paragraph is more examples of mismanagement and underachievement - yes Steve did, relatively, have a go a few years ago. I say relatively, because it was still upper mid table budgets and we basically spent what we sold. 

But does that mean we don’t ever have a go again?

Or rather should the club learn from its mistakes and not gamble on putting unproven people in hugely important positions in the club? 
 

Maybe bring in someone trustworthy and experienced as CEO…like Gould instead of Ashton.

And a manager who’s been there and done it, like Pearson instead of Johnson.

Oh wait, we had those, but now we’re back to unproven again in Tinnion and Manning - and without the investment - and we should all just say oh well, it is what it is.

10 hours ago, firstdivision said:

I think play-offs is out of reach as we stand (ie before summer recruitment - but it will need something significant to make us top six).  Success next season (for me) is top ten with some exciting performances. 
Failure is flirting with relegation/still looking  over our shoulder with ten games left. 

I think this league is brutal and there will be crap games and some poor performances. (I see myself as a realist.) We should kind of accept that , however frustrating it is.

I’ve no idea whether LM will ‘succeed’ or not, but I have some patience. I never bought the hierarchy’s supposed suggestion that we were capable of top six this season. They didn’t fund a big/strong enough squad for that. I take a lot of what football people say with a pinch of salt.

I can’t stand many of the unequivocal postings on this forum. They lack nuance and context. And I don’t like the personal attacks on LM. But that’s the world we live in: too much social media short-termism and knee-jerk reactions. Thirty years ago we went down the pub after a game, or whatever, and ranted with two or three mates about  a performance. Now we come on here and other sites, and everything is amplified. It’s nuts, frankly. Plus, some people take themselves far too seriously. I’ve hardly posted recently because I can’t be bothered with the aggro. 

Only two Bristol City managers in history have succeeded in getting us into the top division and I don’t even know the name of the first one. Mid-table in the Championship is not the worst place to be. Ten seasons in the Championship have been pretty good compared to many of the other forty-four seasons I’ve witnessed. I’d like to see us in the PL before I die but it’s a damn hard thing to achieve. It needs wisdom, skill, money, patience and luck. I’m not holding my breath. 

I really hate losing and I want every BC manager to succeed. I don’t mind a sacking (ruthless when necessary) but I think LM deserves more time. I’m surprised you’ve nailed your colours this early in his tenure but that’s your prerogative. I’ve seen good and bad under LM and I expect that will continue under him and every other BC manager I’ll see. Because that’s pretty much football life. 

 

I agree with much of your post, it's a very sensible, realistic one.

But I just want to pick up on your sentences in bold - I've seen this kind of comment quite a lot on here recently:

Something along the lines of "this is the way it's alway's been with City" or "it used to be much worse" and "it's football, it's tough, nothing's a given" etc etc.

And I just don't like it. At all - it's so...defeatist. So unambitious. So mediocre.

Do you think that's the attitude Ipswich have at the moment? Or Luton before them. Or Brentford before them? I could go on.

Yes it's a tough league and nothing is a given, but we should as a club and a fan base, be striving and demanding so much more from the club, even with the level of investment, IMO, we should be competing higher up the league.

The reason's for that have been done to death - but I personally don't subscribe to this "it is what it is" attitude. 

I believe the "10 seasons in the championship" is not necessarily the badge of honour you think. Why:

Well IMO mid-table championship is Bristol City's par - the fact we've spent so much time under that level shows how we've underachieved as a club and the fact we've been talking about 'potential' for 20 years shows every year more at mid-table in the championship is not fulfilling our potential.

4 hours ago, W-S-M Seagull said:

Not really. They are still bound by ffp. 

Of course - but gives them the funds to push FFP to the limit.

Look at us, we must have a nice buffer in our FFP, but if Lansdown uses the revenue from Scott and Semenyo, for example, to pay for wages and other running costs, instead of ploughing back into squad, that FFP buffer means nothing.

Ipswich can afford to spend what they earn, and Ashton will no doubt be maxing those revenue streams, all the while there is little jeopardy over the funds.

Can they not also use it for development, academy etc? Go cat 1 and use the funds to outgun other clubs in area for best youngsters etc etc. 

Phrased as investment “up to” - so presume that’s staggered over a period or even subject to clauses, promotion etc?

Either way, even if they don’t go up this season, that’s Ipswich propelled to a higher level of spending that we could never match. 

And another championship club getting serious investment - despite us advertising for it, doesn’t seem anyone is interested? Bit depressing. 

45 minutes ago, WeAreThePigs said:

The forum is not a true representation of wider fan base.

This is a favourite comment when someone find themselves in the minority of opinion and as the proverbial kite in a hurricane on here.

I would suggest the mood here is a pretty good representation of the wider fan base and is seen on social media too - this is also reflected in the general poor atmosphere and unrest at times at Ashton Gate at the moment, coupled with the increasing number of empty seats clearly visible recently.

1 hour ago, Roe said:

As I said, I'm not sure it can really be proven from the outside. Which is convenient seeing as he's apparently great at it.

There's no doubt that the academy has certainly improved in terms of first team contribution and player sales. How much of that is down to Tinnion is hard for any of us to really know I think.

I guess if you wanted proof, you'd need to speak to the players that have been brought through recently and the staff that have worked under him. I don't personally care to investigate that any further, but somebody probably should given its apparently earned him the role he's got now..

I was talking about this on another thread today - it’s considered to be ‘fact’ Tinnion is THE academy man. He seems to get the majority of plaudits for our youth set up, but the question is…is that fair??

The fact is - he’s wasn’t head of the academy until 2021 - when the last crop of academy boys had made their first team debuts - Scott, Conway and Bell etc.

The plaudits there should be going to Gary Probert, academy manager for 9 years - who left to go to….Ipswich….

Semenyo, Scott, Conway, Bell, Vyner, Max, Pring, Kelly, Bryan, Bobby… all pre- Tinnion as manager of the academy.

We also know the pathway has been a success in recent years, but that was ironically largely due to FFP blunder transfer restrictions and NP having to blood so many.

Before 2021 he was part of the scouting team and he was the loan manager (remember NP’s comment on that) - but credit to him for his part in finding some of these players.

We are yet to see what ‘his’ crop of 2021 onwards boys can do at first level, the supply has seemingly slowed. Perhaps in part because they are chasing FA youth cup glory? Now we have more room with the cash, you could argue the Jan signings he made have played a part in blocking the pathway.

Interestingly in my research for all this - you get the sense for some years the club have been grooming Tinnion for this role. 

In all the articles about the success of the academy or signings of youngsters like Scott etc - there is Tinnion “loan manager” in the picture with the player and sometimes Probert.

And it’s often Tinnion who is the one doing to media on the academy, despite him being “loan manager” or “pathway manager” - not Probert as head of the academy in the limelight, but Tinnion put forward.

Hence why I think the perception is what it is and why I think he may be getting more credit than he’s due…

Sorry if people think I’m being harsh on Tinnion - if anyone with a better knowledge of the academy can refute my analysis - I’m happy to stand corrected.

2 hours ago, Yozzarian said:

Also we are judging comms ability here, nothing else.

That post was in response to another that brought up the academy.

And with respect, this is a public forum -all relevant discussion is allowed - there are no rules that say other things can’t be discussed in a thread - just ask the pun producers. 
 

If you don’t want to discuss one part of thread, just skim over it. 

2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Listening to player and other interviews interviews over the years, many people have mentioned Brian Tinnion and his influence in a very positive way.  Of course there are lots of influences in building a player but I believe that Brian Tinnion is pivotal in terms of Bristol City.  The fact that he is not always great at expressing himself is not particularly relevant in my opinion. He can clearly make himself understood in football circles.  The fact that is is exposed in terms of his public speaking skills is a reflection of the directors, who clearly value his input but do not look after him as they perhaps should.

Can you reference any of those interviews, any links? Just I've never seen them...

"pivotal" - debatable. 

I've not mentioned his ability to express himself, so that's irrelevant to this discussion.

He was one of a group that scouted players for the academy - in that role i'm happy for him to continue.

Ironically, one could argue we're yet to see the product of his time as academy manager on the pitch - as the number of first team debuts have dried up - time will tell on that one too. 

17 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

It is a game of opinions, and I think he is doing a good job and has done a good job in the past - both as a player and running the academy.  I think it also likely that the lean and mean management structure is an artefact of the bean counters who run the club. Brian has become the scapegoat. Unfairly in my humble opinion.

Yep all good to have opinions - but facts also help.

The fact is our current crop of first team academy players (including recently departed Scott and Semenyo) were under the stewardship of Gary Probert as academy manager.

Talking of Alex Scott (as you mentioned premier league players earlier), he wasn't discovered or coached by BT - Scott was already in the first team when BT became academy manager in October 21. Same goes for Conway (1st team debut mid 21) and Bell (early 22) in reality.

Yes BT has played a big role in scouting and bringing in youth players, Semenyo for example, and we give him credit for that and he can continue in that role no problem. 

But that's only the very start of the process - back to Scott again - my opinion this time - i'd give far more credit to the lad himself, his family, the city youth coaches, the England youth coaches, NP and his coaches, and Phil Alexander or even SL for the sale - than I would BT in any of the process. 

That's not me saying he doesn't get any credit, but keep it in perspective. 

20 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

Of course I know that. But many realise that Brian Tinnion is a very important part of that process and are prepared to give him a degree of credit for his input.

Yes well done Brian, you are one cog in a big machine.

I think the vast majority have given and do give him credit for his part in that process - but I also think some want to give him more credit than he might actually be due, in that process.

And I also think the vast majority of fans also believe that, regardless, all of that doesn't add up to justify the promotion into the position he is now in at the club.

2 minutes ago, Bat Fastard said:

You sound perfect for the job!!  How many young players have you recruited, nursed through the academy into the first team and then on to the Premier League?

You do realise that when a player comes through our academy and is sold on, that is down to numerous individuals within the club, not just being 'nursed' by Brian Tinnion, right?

So £60m for WBA - Have a made up the figure of £200m SL wants for City? Was that reported or is it rumours??

1 hour ago, nebristolred said:

I've been trying to avoid this thread a little while to avoid the hysteria, but nothing has really calmed down. Again like before, it's not really anger on my side, more apathy. Apathy knowing that we will likely tread water in the middle of the Championship for another 10 years, barring the odd flirt with relegation, unless something changes. And let's face it, that position for a club of our size isn't that bad, but it is frustrating when it's seemingly some shoddy mismanagement holding us back.

Based on what others have said, it seems we have a very... distinct shall we say, corporate and management setup. I've said it before and I'll say it again, shell out some money on getting 3 experts into the correct roles, and actually listen to them and actually empower them, and I guarantee the owners will get a much better return on their investment.

A manager who knows what he's doing (at one point we had one of those!), a proper COO or CEO who can run the club appropriately (we also had one of those!), and then another head of the academy and/or player recruitment - not just jobs for mates or pretending roles no longer exist. And to be completely fair and transparent here, I think Tins has proven that he would be a solid shout for that third academy/recruitment job. But only that third job.

I didn't listen admittedly but I've got the vibe from this thread. Just pure apathy now, waiting until something changes, whatever that may be.

I was saying this 3 or 4 years in the Ashton days!

Look at the setup of a club like Brentford, Brighton, Bournemouth, Villa etc. They have structures like this before you get to the head coach etc:

• CEO 
• Director of Football
• Technical director or COO
• Head of Academy
• Head of recruitment 
• Financial director
• Commercial director

Obviously each club differs and some roles overlap - but we basically have 2 or 3 people doing the roles of sometimes 5,6,7 people at other clubs.

Step one move Tinnion sideways to Head of Academy and Pathway.

Then employ, as a minimum, a Head of Football and a new head of recruitment. Both with relevant premier league or champ experience, not some project person.

Set your budget - then JL and SL step back big time, stay out the dressing room. Stay out the weekly meetings.

I said a couple of months back it's always felt like when the club talk about the academy and pathway:

The emphasis is on producing players to sell to the premier league... 

and therefore to take all the plaudits and say ooh look we sold X for ££££££££ aren't we good - rather than

Producing players to build a squad to get Bristol City to the premier league...

This stuff about coming out about the FA youth cup kind of proves that doesn't it. 

His very few 'supporters' can say it wasn't that bad (damning with faint praise) and that whatever he said we'd pick up on:

Yes, no shit sherlock - If you're the technical director of a championship football club, at least be over the basic details and get them right -

He's given us 2 or 3 statements that are either bare-faced lies or incompetently incorrect - neither answer is good.

And then he's topped it off with some gem's like - I've been here 30 years I deserve this position, Manning is learning on the job, we want to be 10 points better off next year and disclosing disclosed transfer fees.

All whilst insulting the fan base as if we'd all just get behind them all will be fine.

An awful appearance from SL's worst (both times, can't make it up ) appointment.

35 minutes ago, Natchfever said:

If Lansdown is really looking to flog BS, apart from assets such as the stadium and HPC, key elements of the value  must be players and projected revenue based upon SC sales and matchday revenue. I think Conway and Prings values have gone south and if Sundays attendance becomes the norm then that may have a marked effect on Stevies nest egg.

Even with an ego such as his, he would surely step in and clear the decks?

 

 

This is why it’s hard to guess this time - comparisons with LJ not the same, as he was fully invested emotionally and financially - perhaps that was his last throw of the dice.

If he is looking to sell - value is everything and it seems he’s also looking for minimum investment from himself…AKA “Sustainability” 

He said what football earns, football spends - but we’ve not seen much of that Semenyo/Scott money yet - and there will be more in the summer - will we invest it? If the taps are limited this summer, fans will get restless.

So he absolutely needs to have a head coach/manager getting the team playing better than the sum of its parts - at the moment Manning is no where near doing that.