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Let's try and remember we are all naive about the essential goings on inside professional football - you yourself have disagreed with Nige - not without experience and success in the game - saying that he can put desire into players by motivating them while elsewhere on this thread suggesting we "listen" to "ex pros" when they wax lyrical about great motivational managers. Why aren't you listening to Nige when he says this? We're all guessing about this. Motivation is a slippery thing from what I can see, hard to pin down. Did Nige sign Vardy then set about "motivating" him, or identify a highly motivated individual and pay a record fee for a non-league player to make sure he got him? It may, or may not be, that Nige cannot motivate any more, or never could; I just don’t know how we could be sure.

Shakespeare and his "once more unto the breach, lads" has a lot to answer for. The idea of the big, strong man inspiring exceptional performance merely through a few brilliant "get stuck into 'em, Nakhi/Kasey" sentences is embedded in our football culture and psyche. We all know Shakespeare wasn't there on the day with a dicta phone taking actual quotes, right?

What do you mean by "motivation," exactly? Henry V style oratory? Mike Bassett type effin and blinding? Shouting from the touchline and waving his fist? Or something more sophisticated than that? And how would a player or manager know, rather than guess, that his magical motivational qualities made a difference (as opposed to, say, how preparation had gone the week leading up to the game, the opposition missing a key player, a lucky bounce or deflection or a penalty decision going your way or not early in a game, the physio having a great week, the nutrition being spot on, a player not sleeping well, a dispute between players unresolved, all manner of things) How could a manager's motivation be measured to demonstrate beyond doubt it's impact and value?

I'd argue managers can draw out or coax what is in a player but cannot implant characteristics such as desire into adults. You go out and find desire, courage, in players and bring them here, then when those players play with said characteristics punters marvel at the managers "motivation."

Ok, here's one:

It's not worth arguing over. Let's hope we win this afternoon.

Ipswich are 9th in L1 and had a crowd of 29,000 the other week, and took 6,800 away yesterday. That's not happening here any time soon (not even a division higher) and there's a distinct and quantative difference between the "tradition" here and the "tradition" there. For good reasons, one of which I have outlined already.

I was mocking the Sheffield Wednesday "it's too much!" thing from 2015, to be fair. Because that one game highlights the difference, in my opinion, between us and the clubs with the serious away followings that we know we don’t have but secretly wish we did. It was amusing following that thread on here, as people found what they really wanted - a valid reason not to be bothered to go through the ball ache of going all that bloody way, just to watch Bristol City. There was another thread about an away game a few years ago, Reading or somewhere, with people moaning about the difficulty of parking. The inconvenience of going away. Made me chuckle. To me, going away is about devotion, it's about what you are prepared to endure and suffer in order to follow and back your team in often unwelcoming circumstances. It has connotations of religious devotion about it. As I see it. This is why yer rotund northerner from Newcastle, Sheffield or Leeds will travel here, midweek, taking "two days off work" if necessary, in the depths of winter, and stand, not sit, in the freezing cold not wearing a shirt. What he is saying is: "look at me you soft southern shite! Look how far I've come! Look how much I love my club! Look how much passion I've got! Look how much passion we've got! Look at us! You're not as loyal/tough/great/passionate as we are!" Following a football club involves a lot of suffering, going away even more so - suffering boredom, inconvenience, great expense, time, hostility, frustration, crushing disappointment and so on - and some clubs' fans are willing to go to greater lengths and endure greater suffering, to back their team, than other clubs' fans. We have a couple of hundred heroic sufferers that do 40 plus games a season, but other clubs have more, in large part due to their historic record of much greater success than we have managed. We all know this. It's not "bad" or anything other than what we decide to say it is. It just is!

I don't, no. It's not bad. For a club like ours. We do, "travel well," around much of the south of this country. My point is just that some other clubs "travel" in greater numbers and further than we tend to for, amongst other things, the tradition of many years making originating in years when they were gloriously successful in a way we never have been.

Two days off work? For an away game, in England?

My point isn't only about Ipswich, it's wider than that. Please put the numbers up on here though. The "last time" they were in the Championship they were relegated. Let's put our away numbers up from 2012/13 if we're doing that.

Yes, perhaps. But I maintain that the "tradition" in Ipswich of going to support the club (especially away) is stronger there than it is in Bristol. Even after all this time. And my theory for why this is so is that Ipswich won shiny silver cups in the 60s, 70s and 80s, cups that every club in the country - Liverpool, Manchester United, every club - wanted to win (ie not the Sherpa Van or L1 title), and they were regularly on Match of the Day playing attractive, winning football. Meanwhile, we were mostly bobbing between Div 3 and Div 2 (not scoring many goals in the latter). That tradition, of "going to the match," of going away "with the boys," is more ingrained, even now, in Ipswich, than it is here. Our equivalent of Ipswich to MK, a trip of about 100 miles I think, and a huge away end, could be Coventry. We take a good following there, certainly, but not 6000. I'm not mocking anyone for that, merely trying to point out the difference between a club like ours, and clubs with greater success in their past.

Didn't intend to antagonise, just a bit of a late night ramble in an attempt to say why we wouldn't take a following like that were we midtable in L1 and/or some way below our "natural" place in the pyramid. As I see it. It's an anti "we're by far the greatest team, the world has ever seen" "we're massive" point of view. I don't see it as "patronising," just telling it "like it is," or as it is to me. We're just not that into Bristol City, the way some other fans at certain other clubs are into their clubs, because, in my opinion, unlike them we have been spectacularly unsuccessful for 99% of our history, and so we shouldn't compare ourselves to clubs with great followings (which I think some might, reading Graham's OP, and possibly feel bad about ourselves, Ipswich being "beneath" us these days, a mere L1 club, and a bit of a "thing" to some currently due to MA).

We got there early enough to 'ave a bit of a knees up on 'ackney Marshes v a team of Orient fanzine geezer fans for the 1990 game. If I remember kreckly @GrahamC was there too, goal-hanging up front and not pressing the Cockernee back four much, and @77 punk did a man-marking job on the one in their team who had a changing room to herself (I assume). Not in a pervy way, to be fair, more of a "if I stick near her I won't get embarrassed too much" kind of way. @Merrick's Marvels was likely involved too, and @British Steel. Possibly @Huntstile Red too, tagging along, and hogging the ball in midfield / dishing out some "bants" / bringing some Bez type vibes to things. Those were the days .... We should organise a re-match (and take a defibrillator with us)

Yes, sir. I know. When we were winning every week. How many went the season before that, or the season after? How many will go next time? Add them all up, then divide by 4 and you've got a more realistic idea of our away following. You might as well say we took 42,000 to Walsall in 2015.

All I'm saying is that Ipswich are a "great" club in English football, and we are not. It's only the "great" clubs that can muster a following like this when they are relatively shite, by their standards. When Ipswich got to the top division, they achieved "great" things, great civic pride was fostered, great crowds attended. A tradition was laid down, and traditions in football tend to endure. Ipswich were even admired and respected far beyond their local area. When we got to the top division for the only time in living memory, we were "workmanlike" and battled against relegation for three of the four seasons. No-one outside of Bristol remembers that team, less still admired it. It was a team, like all Bristol City teams, only Bristol City fans could love. Like the Freight Sherpa Johnson Paintball Trophy, the Anglo-Scottish cup did nothing for "civic pride," and nothing for our away following 40 years later. We are a club with a "big day out" away following, taking 25,000 to Coventry in 1977, a bit more than Rovers took to Anfield in 94, 9000 to Forest in 89, 8000 to Man City in 2018, 5000 to Sheffield Wednesday when on a record breaking club run, 5000 to MK Don's when running away at the top of the table (how many went to Bradford the night we were promoted though?) or 42,000 to Wembley. Get to the Prem and play Burnley on a Monday night though, how many go to that? There'll be room on Coach 2, and you know it. We have our tradition, but it's a smallish club tradition, a Division 3/Division 2/Division 3 tradition, "big day out/ up-for-the-cup big following" - nothing to be ashamed of given our modest/pathetic record over 100 years but never going to be like yer Wolves, yer Pompeys, yer (clubs that won something big once and so mean something to their local area). In the 1970s and early 80s, little boys around the country wore Ipswich kits and pretended to be Terry Butcher, Arnold Muhren and Paul Mariner; no little boys beyond Bristol ever wore that Umbro City shirt and pretended to be David Rogers, Gueert Meijer or Tom Ritchie, sadly. We're just not in that league of historic, heritage, aristocratic clubs, unfortunately, and so we'll only ever take 6,850 to an away league game the day we get promoted to the Prem (just so long as it's a weekend game not midweek, and not too far north of Birmingham or east of London, or they charge the sort of money Sheffield Wednesday wanted that day in 2015 and everyone decided it was too much).

Ipswich are ninth in L1, we were top. Sheffield Wednesday we were flying, too. How many would we take to MK if we were ninth in L1? How many do we take to Sheffield Wednesday as a rule?

I still have original 1980s copies of the somewhat sober and serious "Wise Men Say (Johnson Out)" If you'd like to buy

Yes, and all the Nige-haters be warned now: next season is all about preparing for the season after that.

To wade through?

Certainty, old chap, certainty, that's what we all crave and need as much of as we can grasp on this uncertain, fragile planet.

Only clubs that at some point in their history have been truly successful at the top level (ie not grim struggles against relegation from the top, and not promotions from L1 and Sherpa Van cups) have that level of interest, and that quality of tradition, handed down from one generation to the next, regardless of current status and regardless of the number of years since their glory days. We're not in that category of club and never will be. No-one outside of Bristol remembers our Anglo-Scottish cup win, except for Alec Ferguson.

For any young people browsing on here (unlikely, but just in case) treacle is a thick, sticky, gooey sugary gooey thing your grandparents used to eat in the 1970s, and when they were wading through it it was not very easy, and exhausting.

They had 55% possession that night. We had 11 shots and 6 on target, they had 19 and 5. I think they hit the post first half, at 0:0. We definitely outscored them, and scored by far the quality goals, but "outplayed" them is a figment of your fertile imagination I would say. But don't let me get in the way of that, I'm sure I won't. You remember it as you please!

He doesn't appear to be much of a "January, February, March" sort of manager. I can see him working next in the southern hemisphere, Boca Juniors perhaps. Or Santos. Mind, he still won't get them promoted.