italian dave

Isn’t that because the two views start from two different premises. I think we’d all agree that we could appoint a worse manager than LM. We could appoint me, for example! And at the other extreme, we’d probably all welcome Jurgen Klopp taking over tomorrow, but it ain’t going to happen! So the reality lies somewhere in between me and Jurgen Klopp And within that range there’s a whole array of variables around competence, availability, fit, cost and so on. Theres no absolute guarantee that anyone within that range will bring us greater success, so it’s a judgement call. Now, your starting point is that you’ve already written LM off. Others haven’t. They are both legitimate opinions: there’s no right and wrong, no absolute certainty there. But the consequence is that you’ll have a different take on the risks around the replacement and your judgement will probably draw a line in a different place to someone who’s not written him off. Nothing wrong with that, but it’s only ‘desperation’ if you start from the premise that you do. (Ultimately, it’s 99% sure you’ll be right of course . We all know pretty much all managerial careers end in failure eventually - it’s just a case of whether it’s this month, this year or in 4 years time!)

I’m not saying that. I don’t really know the answer to that because I don’t know enough about how roles, responsibilities, accountabilities and objectives were operated at the time. But that’s not what this discussion was about. It was explicitly about what LJ achieved in terms of league position. I did acknowledge at the outset that there were legitimate challenges around the resources etc he had.

Sure. But ultimately it should have been MA (and SL) calling the shots there. The financial buck stopped with them. And actually I don’t think it helped LJ one jot in the end. Too many options.

OK. And I don’t disagree. I just wasn’t sure why it followed in response to a discussion about league positions under LJ. Sure we were in a financial mess. But LJ hadn’t been in charge of the money.

Yes, absolutely. I agree. Covid didn’t help either, mind. This isn’t some sort of LJ v NP thing - not in my mind anyway. They had entirely different objectives. LJ’s was league position. Consolidation, then improvement, then in his last season, top 6. Others made the decision about how much money he got, not him. And we went shit for bust that last season (like plenty others did). Again, financially, not his decision. And for much of his tenure he succeeded: failed at the end with that last one. But that doesn’t negate the overall achievements over his tenure. NP’s was entirely different. And yes, as you say, driven by financial imperatives, cutting costs, saving us from FFP consequences. Whilst treading water. And he did a great job. We put the books in order without ever really flirting with relegation - although a season when others had big points deductions helped! His problem at the end of the day seems to have been maintaining relationships. But the point is that they both had different jobs to do and both did decent enough jobs on the whole.

And the other problem I have is with reverting to name calling. End of debate.

But who? Which owners? When? What would they do different? And the same for the DoF. And for the coaches.. It’s not arguing for the sake of it. It’s the fundamental problem I have with all this “sack everyone” stuff. It’s not a solution, it’s not an end in itself. You have to say what follows and how that makes it better. And then how you are so sure of that. If it was a simple as just ‘sack everyone’ don’t you think everyone would be doing it? And it’s hardly worked for Watford!

And then what? No owners. No DoF. No coaches. Just some players and supporters. Sounds like a recipe for great success to me

What’s the phrase…..damned with faint praise

That’s fair enough: your view. I don’t have a particular view on the appointment: don’t really know what the objectives, alternatives etc were. I think it’s also fair to say though that his flirtations with both were linear and evidence of the progress under him. He flirted with relegation early on, but latter end of his tenure was very much ‘top end’ (to coin a phrase ) No, he didn’t achieve it, and that’s what cost him his job - I’m pretty sure top 6 was the ultimatum that season. (Well, you did mention it, but I think you got away with it ).

I think it was earlier today (long trip back from Ipswich!) that I characterised his tenure as taking us from a yo-yo L1/Champ club to an established mid table (maybe even top half) Champ club. I'm not talking about picking specific individual points in time (we can all prove anything that way!) just generally how the club is perceived. I think that's fair?? And I know you can argue about the resources he had, the opportunities he missed and so on - but at the end of the day he did that - and I feel that was significant and deserves acknowledgment.

Funnily enough, they mentioned some of those games. when we talked about how we'd struggled against sides like QPR and Cardiff. Even the top teams do. Funny old division, eh?! As for the rest...don't shoot the messenger. Just saying what I heard - and I thought it might bring a bit of relief to the relentless negativity!

And yet....he took us to the most consistently successful league position we've been in for 40 years.

Interestingly it was because they know people who work with him. And it was about him, not about what's been achieved at Ipswich while he's been there. Their view was that 'for Mark Ashton it's all about Mark Ashton' - and I'm not sure there's many of us would disagree with that view? And Mr H - no, that wasn't the case: it was exactly as I said. We expressed no opinion. We said 'what's your view on Mark Ashton?' and the immediate reply was 't w a t'. Simple as that.

I think that's a very unfair and inaccurate portrayal of my view SA. I backed LJ because he was the City HC and I wanted him to do well. And I backed NP for exactly the same reason. I've no idea where you get this notion that I wasn't supportive of NP. My view on both was that they manage the club I love, that they both want what's best for the club, and as long as those two things are the case then they'll have my support. I didn't share the loathing that some on here had for LJ. And I didn't share the man love that some seemed to have for NP. So that may have put me at odds with a significant proportion on here, but I'd argue that I was the more even handed! And I take exactly the same view as far as LM is concerned. That doesn't preclude criticism. I've been critical of all three. But I think that criticism needs to be constructive. otherwise it stops supporting them. and for the reasons above I've supported them all. What I don't like, and don't join in with is the endlessly repetitive negativity. It's fair enough to question - for example - whether LM is getting the best out of Tommy Conway. But there are already three separate threads all asking the same thing and all saying the same thing. So why the f... do we need yet another thread on exactly the same topic started this morning? Who exactly is this going to help? Neither do I like go for the campaigns and petitions and calls to 'sack xxx'. (And you won't find that I ever called for NP to be sacked - not even when everyone else was!). Because it's pointless. I don't get a say. I don't know what's going on behind the scenes. And most of all because just sacking someone achieves precisely nothing - other than leaving us without a manager. And I certainly don't go for the name calling and the abuse. Which is becoming depressingly apparent again. It's just pathetic. And all that applies whoever if our manager. I don't generally get particularly attached to or feel a particular antipathy to any manager. I don't know them. And as far as I'm concerned, whether it's LJ, NP, LM or anyone else, while they manage City they have my support. So I think your assessment of my having different approaches to and views on NP and LJ is very far from the mark.

I was surprised too. And they acknowledged that you won't find many other Ipswich fans saying the same. But it did give me a little greater respect for their judgement!!

It’s certainly true that Scott Murray’s van was parked out the back!! But I think wearing Ipswich coats might be taking it too far…..and anyway, pretty sure I’d have spotted it was him

But that’s a view based on four games. You wouldn’t have been saying that four games ago. This is talking next season/four years! Clearly there’s a scenario where we simply lose the next four then the next four but a) I don’t think that will happen and b) I’m not convinced that yet another change at the top in the midst of that would really help.

Lee Johnson’s four year tenure saw a significant shift, from the club being a yo-yo Championship relegation/L1 promotion club to being an established mid table (even, dare I say it, top half!) Championship club. If we can get a similar degree of shift out of a four year Liam Manning tenure (to yo-yo PL/Championship) then I for one will be happy.

Does your mate also think Mark Ashton is a t w a t? (A less commonly held view in Ipswich). If so, I think I might have met him last night?! You’re right: it was based on far far more than just one match! They’ve followed his career and were able to talk about other City games this season. On that last point about a turn around. I’d agree with you - up to a point. But two things 1. There was no need to turn things around on the pitch, on the football front. But I think most of us feel that the change came about because of things elsewhere. And if that was about breakdowns of relationship and trust then there was a need for change. And you can argue til you’re blue in the face about where that change needed to be, but it was only ever going to end one way. And, of course, any change at that level in the footballing side is going to come with change there too. 2. Whilst what you say may be true, and there was no need for change, the fact is that there was. And that will take time. Hence their view being about this time next season, not now.

Talking to a couple of Ipswich fans in the hotel bar this evening. Just some context, in terms of their judgement: we asked what they thought of Mark Ashton: “t w a t”. Then, can we have Wes Burns back. “Only if we can have Liam Manning back when McKenna gets poached” Really? Yes: “you’ve got a top coach, one of the best……give him til this time next season and you’ll be glad you did…….best organised side here this season” Just saying.

Well, that was the most bizarre half time “entertainment” I’ve seen for some time.

Can’t say I’ve ever seen Pring or McCrorie in the same sentence as Maradona before! But yes!!

Pring is fit as a fiddle. McCrorie has a knock.

Football clubs that sell you an overpriced bottle of water…..and won’t trust you enough to leave the top on. Looking at you Ipswich.