Sod's Shrewsbury Programme Notes.

[Aizoon]

Just listened to his interview, you can tell he is getting cheesed off..

I challenge anybody to determine whether SOD is cheesed off from his demeanour. The Black Country accent doesn't help, either.

For the record, I think his statement is eminently sensible, but it won't please the more hysterical among the faithful. But then, what would?

[EnclosureSurge]

No doubt views on SOD are polarised. I can understand what his ethos is & the message he is trying to get across. Nevertheless I can't help having a few worries about our current league form. I would have hoped for a few more points by now tbh. SOD says get the performance right & the results will follow. I wonder whether he might have more points if he reversed the mantra. Get the results right and performances will improve?

True, but that was what McInnes and his ilk did, imo. I think that was short-term-ism. Get the results now, but what happens when the results - as they surely will - dry up? You haven't got a plan to go back on, a performance-based ethos. This, I admit, is easier to see and buy into if we are winning games so I can understand people's frustrations, even if they are exaggerated somewhat (for me).

SoD wants to lay such a solid way of playing, training, thinking that when he shuffles on the next guy comes in and doesn't have to completely start again with totally different ideas, but tinker with the playing staff (easier to fix than an overhaul of the philosophy).

I get your point, though.

I think that was a good read and as ever, sense being spoken by sod, I don't see the point in getting promotion straight away without a plan if it just means relegation a season later, I would rather we took a few seasons to build a team with a long term plan in place (like we are doing) and go on to get success from there, at the start of the season my prediction for where we will finish was top 10 although I optimistically thought (and still do) that challenging for the play offs was possible

I don't really see all the cause for negativity by some on here, ok we haven't won a league game this season, but the teams we have played have mainly been some of the better sides this season with gillingham being the only 'easy' game (if there is such a thing). As things are, I'm looking forward to every game and I think tomorrow's game will be our first league win this season, fingers crossed eh?

Well said indeed.

I don't see the hurry in going up. How many clubs have gone up too quickly, built on quicksand and then crumbled?

Yes promotion would be great, even winning home games would be nice, but 6 games is a microscopic look at the season.

As you say, much better to lay solid foundations, build properly...

He has said it might take 2 or 3 years (and he should know) - or did we ignore that?

[Mendip City]

Interesting that he's dropping some of his principles by talking about wins and league tables rather than purely performances. I wonder whether he's getting a bit of "win at all costs" pressure from the board (who must be desperate for something good to deflect attention from their own off-field issues! )

He does sound cheesed off and must be frustrated. Just by the law of averages you'd have expected a league win by now - in that regard he's unlucky.

He's acknowledging how the fans feel and what it feels like to be a fan - that can only help.

The team is in transition, that's fair enough. I'm not so sure that the budget comment holds water. Do Orient have a bigger budget? Did Yeovil last year? Or many teams at this level? Who else spent hundreds of thousands on a centre back (at this level). Fielding and JET are signings most of our rivals couldn't dream of. As for building a team and formula - many of the teams in this division are flung together with loan signings, as SOD rightly says football is always in a state of flux -so you're always dealing with transition.

My hope is that the team throw off the shackles, just play football (not a concept or formula). They played with freedom for the last 10 on Saturday and looked much better for it. I think, briefly, they showed the sort of positive decision making SOD talks about.

[RedM]

I get it, I really do. What worries me is that we sound like we are putting a lot of effort into developing players PROPERLY, but during the process we are likely to take a few hits, like I said I get this and the last thing we need as a club is to start over again with a new manager.

But, this is all well and good if ultimately these good young players develop and go on to play for us for several years, I'm just nervous in the meantime we don't make enough progress, or progress quick enough, and we become a selling club, or even worse lose players for nothing if they are out of contract. All our patient development could benefit another club if we don't show signs ourselves.

Another thing, we assume he is answering the fans who he knows are looking to see wins, could it be a veiled reminder to the board. What happens in public and in private are often very different in many situations.

[Frenchay Red]

True, but that was what McInnes and his ilk did, imo. I think that was short-term-ism. Get the results now, but what happens when the results - as they surely will - dry up? You haven't got a plan to go back on, a performance-based ethos. This, I admit, is easier to see and buy into if we are winning games so I can understand people's frustrations, even if they are exaggerated somewhat (for me).

SoD wants to lay such a solid way of playing, training, thinking that when he shuffles on the next guy comes in and doesn't have to completely start again with totally different ideas, but tinker with the playing staff (easier to fix than an overhaul of the philosophy).

I get your point, though.

Well said indeed.

I don't see the hurry in going up. How many clubs have gone up too quickly, built on quicksand and then crumbled?

Yes promotion would be great, even winning home games would be nice, but 6 games is a microscopic look at the season.

As you say, much better to lay solid foundations, build properly...

He has said it might take 2 or 3 years (and he should know) - or did we ignore that?

I'm not at odds with what he says he is trying to achieve and there have been some signs of this already this season. However concentrating more on results than on the finer points of building a team capable of producing good performances shouldn't necessarily be mutually exclusive should it? After all a team is ultimately judged on the tally of points and not the style of football. Early days yet, but I do wish he could make us harder to beat even if we are a work in progress. I'd be more than happy if we could graft out a couple of dull 1-0 victories!

[JamesBCFC]

I get it, I really do. What worries me is that we sound like we are putting a lot of effort into developing players PROPERLY, but during the process we are likely to take a few hits, like I said I get this and the last thing we need as a club is to start over again with a new manager.

But, this is all well and good if ultimately these good young players develop and go on to play for us for several years, I'm just nervous in the meantime we don't make enough progress, or progress quick enough, and we become a selling club, or even worse lose players for nothing if they are out of contract. All our patient development could benefit another club if we don't show signs ourselves.

I find the last bit of your comment quite a negative way of looking at thing but respect that its your opinion and your entitled to it, and I expect that you are more than likely to be older that me as I think I'm one of the younger ones that post on here, so I guess you will have formed your opinion based off experience (of city or other clubs) that I would have seen less of, but I agree in that I'm worried that we will lose players because they show they have the quality and potential to do in a higher division

[EnclosureSurge]

Interesting that he's dropping some of his principles by talking about wins and league tables rather than purely performances. I wonder whether he's getting a bit of "win at all costs" pressure from the board (who must be desperate for something good to deflect attention from their own off-field issues! )

He does sound cheesed off and must be frustrated. Just by the law of averages you'd have expected a league win by now - in that regard he's unlucky.

He's acknowledging how the fans feel and what it feels like to be a fan - that can only help.

The team is in transition, that's fair enough. I'm not so sure that the budget comment holds water. Do Orient have a bigger budget? Did Yeovil last year? Or many teams at this level? Who else spent hundreds of thousands on a centre back (at this level). Fielding and JET are signings most of our rivals couldn't dream of. As for building a team and formula - many of the teams in this division are flung together with loan signings, as SOD rightly says football is always in a state of flux -so you're always dealing with transition.

My hope is that the team throw off the shackles, just play football (not a concept or formula). They played with freedom for the last 10 on Saturday and looked much better for it. I think, briefly, they showed the sort of positive decision making SOD talks about.

Agree with much of what you say, esp SoD taking on the fans' feelings.

But when has a budget been any guarantor of success, esp with BCFC? It's how you spend it. And we haven't spent it wisely in the last x many years. SoD won't get all of his transfer dealings right, either - do we spend every pound wisely that we have? Or do we all have a crap coat in the cupboard we shouldn't have bought. By and large his dealings, with the guidance of Keith Burt etc, will be better rather than worse than previous managers.

In the 90s the gAssholes had a smaller budget than us and yet regularly beat us because they used it better (Stanley, McGarvey, some terrible money spent).Some managers can get success from a shoestring (Hollowhead for example) but would be useless with a big budget. Similarly GJ is good on a smaller budget (he came a cropper when we started spending and spending) and maybe Russell Slade is good at doing this, too.

We cannot simply say other teams have less money, how come they are more successful (and this is after 6 games remember). It's too simplified, albeit really annoying. If that were the case, the tables would finish with the richest at the top all the way down to 92nd place as the poorest team.

Sheff Utd fans might be asking how come we've outperformed them on (slightly) smaller crowds for the past few years (maybe their forum would give us some perspective, too), as could Forest in the Calderwood days, Soton for a few years, Norwich, Leeds....

Money's not the answer one way or the other, imo.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Not according to some, seems we are finished already.

Well my friend, looking at the posters who are preaching 'patience', telling the forum that SOD will get it right and it's only 6 games, they are exactly the same (well with a few additions) posters who said exactly the same last season and the season before, I suppose the law of averages says eventually they will be right.

[Kibs]

Been doing a bit of research.

Following relegation in 95 under Joe Jordan, after 10 games we had 1 win and sat 23rd in the table.

We improved and finished comfortably in mid table.

In John ward's promotion season we sat 19th after 9 games although had mustered a some wins.

We improved to finish 2nd.

Our first season under Danny Wilson we sat 23rd after 7 games and 20th after 11 games.

We improved to finish 9th.

Under Gary Johnson, after an initial period of revival which saw us rise from 23rd to 18th, we lost 7 consecutive games and were sat bottom in December.

We recovered to finish 9th.

Read into it what you want. I'm not one to say we can't go down, that would be foolish. Far bigger clubs than City have suffered a surprising relegation but more importantly I think it shows that it's far too early to panic and that if we are patient, we could reap the rewards.

[JamesBCFC]

Well my friend, looking at the posters who are preaching 'patience', telling the forum that SOD will get it right and it's only 6 games, they are exactly the same (well with a few additions) posters who said exactly the same last season and the season before, I suppose the law of averages says eventually they will be right.

But look at the differences, we have a manager who knows this division, we have a young team who actually want to play and we are not a team that was one of the favourites to be relegated

On the other hand, the large change of staff (playing and non playing) has, as it usually does, meant that there is a period of transition where players and coaches used to each others methods and techniques, combined with the change of ethos at the club means that we are going through 2 transitional periods at once, unfortunately the change of ethos will be a longer transition but one that will benefit the club in the long term, while the players and coaches will know each other well enough fairly soon resulting not only in more consistant performances but also the results we all want

[surreyred]

Comparisons have been made with Alan DICKS and the time span he needed to get a successful team. However there is a comparison a lot closer time wise.

People might like to recall the first 9 games of Gary JOHNSONS time at the club, and then look at what that team went on to achieve, even in that first season. For my money the team we have now is far better than JOHNSON had then. As with that team this team just needs to reach the tipping point in learning how to close games out.

Those calling for SOD to go might like to read what was being said about Gary Johnson during his first months in the job, and remember what that team went on to do.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

But look at the differences, we have a manager who knows this division, we have a young team who actually want to play and we are not a team that was one of the favourites to be relegated

On the other hand, the large change of staff (playing and non playing) has, as it usually does, meant that there is a period of transition where players and coaches used to each others methods and techniques, combined with the change of ethos at the club means that we are going through 2 transitional periods at once, unfortunately the change of ethos will be a longer transition but one that will benefit the club in the long term, while the players and coaches will know each other well enough fairly soon resulting not only in more consistant performances but also the results we all want

Apart from the very first sentence, everything else you mention was put forward as 'reasons to be cheerful' part 1 last season and although no doubt he does know this division he still has a less than average record overall, so I don't understand where the belief comes from.

[Mendip City]

Agree with much of what you say, esp SoD taking on the fans' feelings.

But when has a budget been any guarantor of success, esp with BCFC? It's how you spend it. And we haven't spent it wisely in the last x many years. SoD won't get all of his transfer dealings right, either - do we spend every pound wisely that we have? Or do we all have a crap coat in the cupboard we shouldn't have bought. By and large his dealings, with the guidance of Keith Burt etc, will be better rather than worse than previous managers.

In the 90s the gAssholes had a smaller budget than us and yet regularly beat us because they used it better (Stanley, McGarvey, some terrible money spent).Some managers can get success from a shoestring (Hollowhead for example) but would be useless with a big budget. Similarly GJ is good on a smaller budget (he came a cropper when we started spending and spending) and maybe Russell Slade is good at doing this, too.

We cannot simply say other teams have less money, how come they are more successful (and this is after 6 games remember). It's too simplified, albeit really annoying. If that were the case, the tables would finish with the richest at the top all the way down to 92nd place as the poorest team.

Sheff Utd fans might be asking how come we've outperformed them on (slightly) smaller crowds for the past few years (maybe their forum would give us some perspective, too), as could Forest in the Calderwood days, Soton for a few years, Norwich, Leeds....

Money's not the answer one way or the other, imo.

Sorry, I might not have been clear, I think we're saying the same thing. SOD in his interview uses the low budget as a reason/excuse - that's what I think doesn't hold water because, as you say, budget doesn't always equal success. I think that's the one area where he didn't do himself any favours - everything else makes sense but talking about no money in a division with Coventry and clubs with a tiny fan base sounds a bit wingey - 20+ teams in this division are skint!

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Comparisons have been made with Alan DICKS and the time span he needed to get a successful team. However there is a comparison a lot closer time wise.

People might like to recall the first 9 games of Gary JOHNSONS time at the club, and then look at what that team went on to achieve, even in that first season. For my money the team we have now is far better than JOHNSON had then. As with that team this team just needs to reach the tipping point in learning how to close games out.

Those calling for SOD to go might like to read what was being said about Gary Johnson during his first months in the job, and remember what that team went on to do.

Well there you go, actually how many are actually calling for SOD to go out how many hundreds of contributors on this forum?, I suspect you wouldn't even find 10, the problem you and many other posters have is if you criticise SOD you must want him to go.

[JamesBCFC]

Apart from the very first sentence, everything else you mention was put forward as 'reasons to be cheerful' part 1 last season and although no doubt he does know this division he still has a less than average record overall, so I don't understand where the belief comes from.

Fair enough if you don't see it, but I respectfully disagree (but then again I'm a pessimist in everything other than football, which is where I suddenly become an optimist)

I am happy to give it time, and remain confident that come the business end of the season we won't be worrying about a relegation dogfight

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Fair enough if you don't see it, but I respectfully disagree (but then again I'm a pessimist in everything other than football, which is where I suddenly become an optimist)

I am happy to give it time, and remain confident that come the business end of the season we won't be worrying about a relegation dogfight

and I am happy to give it time as well, but unlike far too many on here I don't buy into every word that SOD whispers in his interviews.

[downendcity]

Didn't take GJ long with Yeovil?

Yes, but conference managers do things a lot differently

[WolfOfWestStreet]

I think I'd probably have more faith in SOD if he might show just a tiny bit of enthusiasm. Won't smile, hostile to journalists and media, snide comments at supporters, never seen him applaud the stands or supporters when we're away.

It's like it pains him to be here. His misery is infectious.

[Sargent Pepper]

Lets be honest has been happening for the last 3 years.

and in the those years we have constantly changing managers which has led us to this point. About time we tried building for the long term and not quick fixes i say as the other way hasnt worked out to well eh?

[Cap flinger]

and in the those years we have constantly changing managers which has led us to this point. About time we tried building for the long term and not quick fixes i say as the other way hasnt worked out to well eh?

but if he takes us down again do you think he will still have a job? It's all very well building for the future but we need to stay up first!

[Robin101]

but if he takes us down again do you think he will still have a job? It's all very well building for the future but we need to stay up first!

OH MY LORD, WE ARE SIX GAMES INTO THE SEASON. THERE ARE FORTY (40!!!!!!) GAMES TO GO.

[Sleepy1968]

OH MY LORD, WE ARE SIX GAMES INTO THE SEASON. THERE ARE FORTY (40!!!!!!) GAMES TO GO.

Only 40? Jesus, we're doomed....

[AshtonGreat]

Well if fans don't understand that in simple English... then no wonder he sounds cheesed off.

He's been saying the same thing since he's been here and yet certain fans still don't get it.

It must be like banging your head against a brick wall.

It's so easy to understand... yet certain fans want miracles...

We don't want miracles. But why should it take so long to make players do the right things? It's not rocket science... DO THIS, DO NOT DO THIS. How many times does he have to tell them?

[Aizoon]

OH MY LORD, WE ARE SIX GAMES INTO THE SEASON. THERE ARE FORTY (40!!!!!!) GAMES TO GO.

And only one of the teams we've played is in the bottom 14 by the bookies rating, and we only drew away against them. WE'RE DOOMED CAPTAIN MAINWARING, DOOMED I TELL YE!!!

[Nibor]

Lots of sense in the programme notes.

Lots of silliness and impatience on here.

Par for the course really.

Back the manager for crying out loud, it's bloody obvious he's building a young talented team that play the right kind of football in difficult budgetary circumstances.

Support not expectation.

[shirered]

Yeah possibly because we've lost £50m odd quid over the last three years and SL ain't doing it any more so until we get the wage bill down, get rid of those contracts he's talking about, the young players we've bought in are maturing and the kids coming through the Academy actually start being good enough to go straight into the first team then that's how much patience is needed. Even in 3 years, Bryan and Wynter, for example, will only be 22, Reid will be 23. The failure to still grasp this amazes me.

If they keep on playing to their potential then I cannot see them being here in two years time let alone three

[havanatopia]

Didn't take GJ long with Yeovil?

Interesting comparison.

Every manager is different and every situation is different. Difficult to say 'had we applied the same process as GJ we would be in a superior position now' . I suspect yes but you obtain different results when you apply a long term plan compared to whatever GJ is doing; moreover I suspect Yeovil will be there or thereabouts with relegation come May. I do not think such a position so soon after promotion would be the end result for a Sean O'Driscoll team.

[Stephen Lewis]

We don't want miracles. But why should it take so long to make players do the right things? It's not rocket science... DO THIS, DO NOT DO THIS. How many times does he have to tell them?

46 times at least

[Steve Watts]

We don't want miracles. But why should it take so long to make players do the right things? It's not rocket science... DO THIS, DO NOT DO THIS. How many times does he have to tell them?

It's not just a case of coaching the players to individually do the right thing when they have the ball. It's getting them so that they know to do the right thing when they don't have it as well and to trust that the person on the ball will do the right thing. It's about getting them all on the same wavelength.

And quite frankly if this young team takes us down then the long term project continues. The clue about a long term project is in the name - it doesn't succeed overnight. It will take a lot of patience and a change of mind set that some fans won't feel comfortable with whilst we wait for it to bear fruit. I just hope SoD remains here to see it through. Because his theory and philosophy really strikes a chord with me.

In the meantime lets get behind our young guns tonight, eh?

[TinnionForEngland]

It's not just a case of coaching the players to individually do the right thing when they have the ball. It's getting them so that they know to do the right thing when they don't have it as well and to trust that the person on the ball will do the right thing. It's about getting them all on the same wavelength.

And quite frankly if this young team takes us down then the long term project continues. The clue about a long term project is in the name - it doesn't succeed overnight. It will take a lot of patience and a change of mind set that some fans won't feel comfortable with whilst we wait for it to bear fruit. I just hope SoD remains here to see it through. Because his theory and philosophy really strikes a chord with me.

In the meantime lets get behind our young guns tonight, eh?

So there are actually fans who are quite willing to see us relegated possibly winning very few games, playing the likes of Morecambe, Accrington Stanley and Rochdale because apparently this is a 'long term project'. Just bizarre.