Nigel Farage V Nick Clegg....

[chipdawg]

Actually I think that 1 is technically 100% greater than 0.5

Pressure groups such as UKIP can obviously wield an importance in politics way beyond their representation in Parliament.

Nigel did invite Ed and Dave but they, quite sensibly from their points of view, declined the invitation.

Can't any number be expressed as being 100% greater than zero?!?!

Of course and UKIP have had an effect on Tory policy in the last 12 months, I was merely making the point that as things stand they have no MPs whereas other parties do

Indeed, as is there choice. I'm just surprised that the BBC would televise a debate solely between the deputy PM and the leader of a party with no MPs

[chipdawg]

Probably Chip because they are convinced Farage will implode.

And, being clever-chappies that work for the BBC, they can never be wrong.

So if UKIP get 4 MP's in 2015, what % improvement is that mate?

Well according to my logic still only 100%...

Well to be honest as things stand and on current evidence he will if he's challenged on the UKIP manifesto as a whole rather than just Europe. My issue is more that how this fits with the BBC charter on political impartiality, though as long as other parties are allowed to participate they've done their bit

As I've said before, the main achievement of UKIP at the next GE will be to usher in a Labour majority. They might get 1 seat, they may even get the 4 you mention, but they'll take them from the Tories and they'll take votes from the Tories in marginal seats. That's not an issue or even UKIPs problem, but the nuances of our electoral system may mean that they'll be further from their stated aims come May 2015 than they are now

I guess Clegg has the least to lose from UKIP; can't imagine many Lib Dem voters making that jump

[marshy]

Can't any number be expressed as being 100% greater than zero?!?!

Of course and UKIP have had an effect on Tory policy in the last 12 months, I was merely making the point that as things stand they have no MPs whereas other parties do

Indeed, as is there choice. I'm just surprised that the BBC would televise a debate solely between the deputy PM and the leader of a party with no MPs

 

100% of 0 is still zero.

 

To calculate a % increase take the new figure and subtract the old figure. Divide the result by the old figure and then multiply by 100. When the base figure is zero and you attempt to divide by this your calculator will show this as an error. That is because it is impossible to divide anything by zero.

 

So, for instance, if a party increases its seats from 50 to 100 then 100-50=50. 50/50*100=100%. It has doubled its number of seats. If it increases from 20 to 100 then 100-20=80 and 80/20*100=400%. In the same way from 10 to 100=900% and 1 to 100 =9900%. You can see that as the starting figure decreases the % increase gets larger and as it approaches zero it will tend to infinity. 0.1 increasing to 100 would show an increase of 99 900%.

The answer to your question is, therefore, no.

[chipdawg]

100% of 0 is still zero.

To calculate a % increase take the new figure and subtract the old figure. Divide the result by the old figure and then multiply by 100. When the base figure is zero and you attempt to divide by this your calculator will show this as an error. That is because it is impossible to divide anything by zero.

So, for instance, if a party increases its seats from 50 to 100 then 100-50=50. 50/50*100=100%. It has doubled its number of seats. If it increases from 20 to 100 then 100-20=80 and 80/20*100=400%. In the same way from 10 to 100=900% and 1 to 100 =9900%. You can see that as the starting figure decreases the % increase gets larger and as it approaches zero it will tend to infinity. 0.1 increasing to 100 would show an increase of 99 900%.

The answer to your question is, therefore, no.

I feel this has perhaps got away from the crux of the discussion! But I stand corrected

[Red-Robbo]

Et tu, Nige?

 

 

 

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nigel-farage-asked-about-using-taxpayers-money-to-employ-former-mistress-annabelle-fuller-9186689.html

[Mr Mosquito]

Well, when the Guardian is saying Nigel Farage won, and won well - it must be true!

 

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/blog/2014/mar/26/nigel-farage-vs-nick-clegg-the-debate-for-europe-live

 

What did people think?

 

I'm no lover of the Lib-Dum EU scum but at least their leader - Nick Smegg - turned up for the debate on Britain's EU membership. Cowards David Camoron and Ed Milipede were no where to be seen. A bit of a nervy performance from Nigel Fartage - I'm more used to seeing him ripping into the various unelected EU despots (Barosso, Van Rumpuy, Catherine Ashton etc) in the vipers' nest of the EU Parliament. Nigel Fartage says EU has "blood on its hands" over Ukraine - I'd agree with that and it's quite obvious to me that the EU is wanting to advance its borders toward Russia - just as previous EU leaders Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm and Herr Hitler did.

 

I'm in favour of Britain's immediate withdrawal from the EU and criminal prosecutions brought against all our traitor Lib-Lab-Con politicians and business leaders that have signed us up to the EU with absolutely no democratic mandate to do so from the British people. They should bear in mind that the punishment for this type of treason was the death penalty by beheading.

[Red-Robbo]

I'm no lover of the Lib-Dum EU scum but at least their leader - Nick Smegg - turned up for the debate on Britain's EU membership. Cowards David Camoron and Ed Milipede were no where to be seen. A bit of a nervy performance from Nigel Fartage - I'm more used to seeing him ripping into the various unelected EU despots (Barosso, Van Rumpuy, Catherine Ashton etc) in the vipers' nest of the EU Parliament. Nigel Fartage says EU has "blood on its hands" over Ukraine - I'd agree with that and it's quite obvious to me that the EU is wanting to advance its borders toward Russia - just as previous EU leaders Napoleon, Kaiser Wilhelm and Herr Hitler did.

 

I'm in favour of Britain's immediate withdrawal from the EU and criminal prosecutions brought against all our traitor Lib-Lab-Con politicians and business leaders that have signed us up to the EU with absolutely no democratic mandate to do so from the British people. They should bear in mind that the punishment for this type of treason was the death penalty by beheading.

 

 

Other than that referendum in 1974 you mean, Gobbers.

[Mr Mosquito]

Other than that referendum in 1974 you mean, Gobbers.

 

I wasn't old enough to vote in the EU referendum in 1975 nor was about 70% of the current electorate. I notice that the sanctimonious BBC EU loving prat Jeremy Paxman was taking the piss out of Nigel Farage on BBC Newsnight. Yet another example of the lack of impartiality from the BBC EU propaganda news and views agency.

[Red-Robbo]

I wasn't old enough to vote in the EU referendum in 1975 nor was about 70% of the current electorate. I notice that the sanctimonious BBC EU loving prat Jeremy Paxman was taking the piss out of Nigel Farage on BBC Newsnight. Yet another example of the lack of impartiality from the BBC EU propaganda news and views agency.

 

That's how referendums work, matey. You don't have new votes every year to allow for the fact that a new crop of 18 year olds have become available!  Of course, you could well argue that once Maastricht Treaty was signed, we should've had a follow up as a different framework was being constructed - but that doesn't mean there was no mandate. One had quite clearly been won. 

 

I'm not sure what Paxo's views on the EU are - and neither are you. He published a book on Englishness, didn't he - that should appeal to you.

 

Still, if you will slavishly follow a "public school toff" with a French surname, who spent his working life representing French and American firms and then married a German and started to work in Belgium, you probably aren't very impartial...

[Mr Mosquito]

That's how referendums work, matey. You don't have new votes every year to allow for the fact that a new crop of 18 year olds have become available!  Of course, you could well argue that once Maastricht Treaty was signed, we should've had a follow up as a different framework was being constructed - but that doesn't mean there was no mandate. One had quite clearly been won. 

 

I'm not sure what Paxo's views on the EU are - and neither are you. He published a book on Englishness, didn't he - that should appeal to you.

 

Still, if you will slavishly follow a "public school toff" with a French surname, who spent his working life representing French and American firms and then married a German and started to work in Belgium, you probably aren't very impartial...

 

......ridiculous and yours seems typical of the continuing BBC elitist view on Britain's continuing EU membership. The last referendum on Britain's EU membership was 39 years ago and there's also been articles published to say that the vote was fiddled to keep us in the then EEC. Let's have a free and fair referendum and let the people decide.

[Red-Robbo]

......ridiculous and yours seems typical of the continuing BBC elitist view on Britain's continuing EU membership. The last referendum on Britain's EU membership was 39 years ago and there's also been articles published to say that the vote was fiddled to keep us in the then EEC. Let's have a free and fair referendum and let the people decide.

 

 

I don't have a view.  And what does the BBC have to do with it? And every f-ing thing you post here, for that matter.

 

I didn't watch the debate as I was doing something more pleasurable at the time, but I read SX225's opinion of it and he seems to think neither man landed a decisive oratorical blow. YouGov gave Nige a victory, but I suspect that is because the cause he espouses is electorally popular, rather than as an assessment of how powerful his debating style was.

 

TBH I'd rather read unbiased facts about the EU and make my mind up than listen to head-to-head debates like last night's. Politicos in debate shows are all about style over substance.

[Mr Mosquito]

 

TBH I'd rather read unbiased facts about the EU and make my mind up than listen to head-to-head debates like last night's. Politicos in debate shows are all about style over substance.

 

....indeed, let's hear the unbiased facts about Britain's EU membership from the publicly funded broadcaster that is the BBC. More chance of watching pigs fly !!!!!!

[chipdawg]

Watched it again - points:

Nick Clegg.

Well in front for the first 15 minutes but was exposed gradually to be short on substance. Has 4 key points and stuck doggedly to them, eventually to the detriment of his side.

The 'Spanish tourist' idiocy descended into the false info about European laws percentage - and he never recovered.

Considering he had been on the national television stage countless times, it was hard to see him improving his performance, but if able to switch topics more confidently next time, instead of reverting to the same points over and over again, should come across better.

Was horribly patronising to the quiet builder (John) and just didn't listen to his question. 6/10

Nigel Farage

Was nervous and it showed. Very hesitant to start and not his aggressive, blustery self. Settled though, and was able after 25 minutes or so to bounce around the topics without reverting to the same point ad infinitum.

Once Clegg made the horrendous gaffe re Euro law %, you could see his eyes light up and it was a bit of vintage Farage. Dodged the 'spouse-employment' bullet, and Clegg missed a chance.

Not used to live televised debate, and it's difficult to see Farage delivering two weak performances on the trot.

Will learn a lot from this, and if improves as expected, will be more than a handful for Clegg next time 6.5/10

Nick Ferrari

Hardly impartial, but a much easier ride than Farage is used to

Audience

Seemed quite a fair mix of trades,cultures and genders. Some good questions asked.

Overall

Farage just shaded it, in a sub-par performance. Will learn from this. Cleggs gaffe gave Farage a gee-up which was needed.

A slight win for Farage, but a large win for UKIP, based on audience reaction at the beginning and end of the debate, and the subsequent exit polls.

Big showing in Europe for UKIP, and Westminster beckons.

For Clegg - annihilation awaits for the Lib-Dems, and retirement to a nice Euro law practise for Nick.

I'm not sure how anyone can declare anyone a winner really- though I appreciate the polls gave it to Farage and can see why. I only watched part of it and followed the BBC text commentary for the rest (the wife could only take it for so long), but it just seemed to be a case of one man saying " this fact is true" while the other replies "no it's not, but listen to my absolutely correct fact". I don't recall one of them referencing any independent of academically valuable reference to back up what they were saying. It was like a glimpse into a British political future where policy loses out to a cult of personality and a bit of a bun fight. For example, your 7%/70% example wasn't backed up by either man particularly well ( I don't believe either figure). I actually think that biggest 'gaffe' in the long term may turn out to be Farage's comments on Ukraine, but we'll see how it pans out. I think both politicians have probably gained from it, if only by cementing the people who already agreed with them before the debate started. Be interesting to see whether Clegg is more aggressive in the second one given that the polls indicate that people prefered Farage

Interestingly, Sky News (I've started enjoying Sky News and I don 'to know what that means!) a little later on had a pollster on (can't remember which firm he was from) who said current polling suggests only 1 in 4 people want to leave the EU and I can't see that anything said in the debate will have changed that

One further thing; I wonder how many of those who watched it were undecided on the issue of the EU? Neither politician is entirely front line and I kind of think that the only people who would have tuned in will be those who already had strong opinions on the EU one way or the other. Can't see that many minds will have been changed

[Red-Robbo]

....indeed, let's hear the unbiased facts about Britain's EU membership from the publicly funded broadcaster that is the BBC. More chance of watching pigs fly !!!!!!

 

 

Right now Auntie Beeb isn't in my good books as it is nearly giving one of my staff a breakdown with incessant faffing and bureaucracy, but for what it's worth, here's what that famously left-wing cultural Marxist magazine The Spectator had to say about bias recently. 

 

http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/coffeehouse/2014/03/yes-of-course-the-bbc-is-biased-against-you/

[Mr Mosquito]

[chipdawg]

You seem to be continuing on your trend of commenting on things you haven't actually watched, or watched in entirety.

And it IS a trend of doing so.

It's on you-tube in full. May I suggest you actually watch it, and then voice an opinion, as it will be worth something then.

For the record - UKIP will have gained extra votes in Europe and Westminster elections with the positive exposure last night. If Farage, as expected, improves, they will gain more.

And you seem to be following a trend- and it IS a trend- of only engaging in debate when it suits you. I'm open about the fact I only watched a part of it and I followed the rest on the BBCs live text. Not perfect I agree, but I don't think it disqualifies me from from commenting. I'd be interested to know what it is that I wrote that you feel demonstrates such ignorance that you can dismiss my opinion in such a patronising way?

Also, a debate on Radio 4 while I was driving to sunny Bradford had a number of members of the public expressing their views- all of them said that they didn't feel there was any substance to the facts and figures presented- no justification or context. This was put down to both the format and the individuals. They also had an academic on who said that the actual figure for UK laws made in Brussels is 10-15%, depending on your reference point

[Davros]

Nicks credability has to have been damaged the 3 million jobs figure is widely regarded as inaccurate old and he repeatedly used it out of context. Then he repeatedly used the arrest warrant as a good thing when most liberals don't like it and would prefer a return to individual arrangements.

The 7% figure is based on total law volume not new laws being made, so if people bother to look that up will also make him look an ass. The most conservative figure I have seen is about 15.5% from the lse but even they admit it can be up to 80% when you look at it from different perspectives. You also have to consider that the largest volume of new laws from the EU came in the 80's & 90's and then a big chunk after the new treaty to it depends on time frame as well.

[Robin1988]

Farage's comments on Ukraine will do him no favours. Gives Clegg something to attack and will have the media firmly on his side. Even if he has half a point, his choice of words is such that it can form real ammo against him, and overshadow a (pains me to say this) decent performance last night.

[Davros]

Farage's comments on Ukraine will do him no favours. Gives Clegg something to attack and will have the media firmly on his side. Even if he has half a point, his choice of words is such that it can form real ammo against him, and overshadow a (pains me to say this) decent performance last night.

I don't know the EU was largley self serving in its engament with Ukraine. Not that I think he's right but its not clear cut.

[Robin1988]

I don't know the EU was largley self serving in its engament with Ukraine. Not that I think he's right but its not clear cut.

No it's not clear cut and there is a small reflection of the west pushing east in 1991 in Russia's stance, his choice of words wasn't wise though.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

I don't know the EU was largley self serving in its engament with Ukraine. Not that I think he's right but its not clear cut.

 

What is undisputedly clear cut is that only Putin actually has blood on his hands.

[bristolborn_and_red]

Farage's comments on Ukraine will do him no favours. Gives Clegg something to attack and will have the media firmly on his side. Even if he has half a point, his choice of words is such that it can form real ammo against him, and overshadow a (pains me to say this) decent performance last night.

 

Farage was bang on the money about the Ukraine. It seems our "democratic" EU are in favour of democraticly elected governments being overthrown by mob rule and then giving support to the mob. Just because Farage said something controversial doesn't make it any less true.

[Davros]

What is undisputedly clear cut is that only Putin actually has blood on his hands.

Yeah so why poke him with a stick we all know what he is.

[Mr Mosquito]

I don't know the EU was largley self serving in its engament with Ukraine. Not that I think he's right but its not clear cut.

 

With the European Union project having France and Germany at its core, Eastward expansion into Russia is no surprise. Historically, France's Napoleonic Empire invaded Russia and actually took Moscow before being beaten back. Kaiser Wilhelm's regime humiliated Russia with a 'peace' treaty toward the end of World War One. Hitler's Reich infamously invaded Russia and actually got to a bus stop a few miles from Moscow centre before being beaten back to Berlin. Today's Franco-German EU Empire is again wanting to advance Eastward especially given that German industry is hungry for the cheap oil and gas that can be found in the Ukraine and Russia.

[chipdawg]

Watch the debate. Then comment.

It's not Rocket Salad.

I did watch the debate- partly in moving pictures, partly in relayed text. I'll endeavour to watch it though, if it'll make you happy? In the interim, as I won't have any time to watch it until the weekend, please tell me what your issue is with what I've said. If i missed something later on that contradicted anything I said in my original post, I'm eager to be put straight

[chipdawg]

I don't know the EU was largley self serving in its engament with Ukraine. Not that I think he's right but its not clear cut.

Remind me; how many EU troops invaded Ukrainian territory? And how many Ukrainian territories did the EU annex via a shotgun referendum?

[Davros]

Remind me; how many EU troops invaded Ukrainian territory? And how many Ukrainian territories did the EU annex via a shotgun referendum?

None, I don't thing Russia is right to annex the Crimea, but what the EU did was to help create a the either or situation in the first place.

[Mr Mosquito]

None, I don't thing Russia is right to annex the Crimea, but what the EU did was to help create a the either or situation in the first place.

 

Indeed, I believe that Nigel Farage was 100% right on the Ukraine and Crimea. The EU's relentless creep East into the Ukraine, was more than Putin was going to stand for, and the EU's interference in the political regime of the Ukraine, was always going to get a reaction. What we've seen in the Ukraine is a coup against a democratically elected, though corrupt, government this coup backed by the EU that is seeking geo-political advantage.

 

Remember that Russia and the Ukraine entered into a treaty which allowed Russia to station up to 25,000 troops in the Crimea and the Ukraine was handsomely rewarded for that. Also, the Russians have a long standing naval base in the Crimea for their Black Sea Fleet. The re-annexation of the Crimea by Russia (it was only transferred to the Ukraine in the 1964) has been grossly mis-reported in the Western mainstream media that plays to the EU tune.

 

Anyway, if we leave the EU then the rest of Europe - and the Ukraine as a potential new EU monster member state - can continue with their untreated obssession with making a reality of George Orwell's 1984 and becoming the playthings of bureaucrats and technocrats. Personally, I don't want to be standardized, homogenized and harmonized under an EU 4th Reich jackboot.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

Yeah so why poke him with a stick we all know what he is.

 

Oh I see just give into bullies all of the time, brilliant, thank **** Churchill didn't.

[Davros]

Oh I see just give into bullies all of the time, brilliant, thank **** Churchill didn't.

That's not what I said, the EU didn't do anything to help the situation, only provoke it. What's it done now that Putin has bitten it in the balls, flapped itsd arms huffed and puffed a little leaving Ukraine with its cock in its hand. So to speak.