chipdawg Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 None, I don't thing Russia is right to annex the Crimea, but what the EU did was to help create a the either or situation in the first place. How? I've heard others express this opinion of EU culpability and I'm genuinely interested in the reasoning, because other than Gobbers posting something about EU assassins in Kiev, I've not seen anyone present an argument for it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 How? I've heard others express this opinion of EU culpability and I'm genuinely interested in the reasoning, because other than Gobbers posting something about EU assassins in Kiev, I've not seen anyone present an argument for it :laugh: no assassins, just the EU were happy to engage with Ukraine on the run up to civil unrest. The EU president was trying and other EU counties were actively trying to get Ukraine to speed up its integration with the EU dispite the west of the country being 50\50 split and the Crimea being 70% anti the idea... Then the pro EU people a minority started protesting and we know how that escalated. Eventually the president went loopy was over thrown by a pro EU minority and then ... Russia annexed the pro Russian Crimea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 That's not what I said, the EU didn't do anything to help the situation, only provoke it. What's it done now that Putin has bitten it in the balls, flapped itsd arms huffed and puffed a little leaving Ukraine with its cock in its hand. So to speak. So as we are clear the Ukraine president (now exposed as an incredibly corrupt man) elected on the promise to his electorate that Ukraine would join the EU as an associate member, 3 weeks before signing the document to join, says actually i've changed my mind citing the incredible pressure from Russia as the main reason, the people protest, he turns the military on his own people and somehow the EU are culpable and provoked Putin, I agree with chipdawg you will have to explain that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 no assassins, just the EU were happy to engage with Ukraine on the run up to civil unrest. The EU president was trying and other EU counties were actively trying to get Ukraine to speed up its integration with the EU dispite the west of the country being 50\50 split and the Crimea being 70% anti the idea... Then the pro EU people a minority started protesting and we know how that escalated. Eventually the president went loopy was over thrown by a pro EU minority and then ... Russia annexed the pro Russian Crimea. Really?, Strange that, 53% pro EU and 35% anti EU and 47% of the pro EU citing that free trade with the EU would be more beneficial than trade agreements with Russia. That was a poll a couple of weeks before the expected signing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted March 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Of course, political coward David Camoron (he bottled the EU debate with Nigel Farage) has no intention of giving us a referendum on EU membership. He loves the EU because his Tory land owning mates in the country get massive EU agricultural subsidies. The recent proof: Ukrainian Prime Minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk and EU Council President Herman Van Rompuy during the signing ceremony of political provisions of the Association Agreement with Ukraine at EU council headquaters in Brussels, Belgium, on March 21, 2014. A nice round of applause can be seen being given by David Camoron........ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted March 27, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 I think the EU 4th Reichers are playing a very dangerous game with the Russians. It is like the German led EU project has set a rabid dog against the Russians...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Whilst I agree with the first part of your post Marshy, I'm surprised at the second. Surely, many or all of those candidate may be preferable to the man with the solid gold golf clubs and pirate galleon? You know, the guy whose son suddenly became Ukraine's richest man during his reign - largely off the back of state-owned enterprises he mysteriously "acquired". The man who imprisoned political opponents and ordered special police snipers to open fire on his own people. I don't pretend to be an expert on Ukrainian politics and I doubt you are either, but we have to conclude that whoever wins the elections will likely be an improvement on Yanukovych and that - other than in Russian language areas - the decision (taken by parliament) to impeach him, enjoys widespread support. As for the gas question; don't underestimate Russian reliance on Ukrainian grain and agricultural produce. There may be a whole lot of posturing going on - from all sides - but money will suggest that a full-blown trade war will not follow. You correctly assume that, like yourself, I'm no expert on Ukrainian politics. However, from what little I do know I would sincerely hope that they don't give Timoshenko another shot at it as there seem to be huge question marks over her record. With regard to the gas question I was simply making the point that a doubling of the price of gas on May1st for domestic consumers, industrial only 40% apparently and slightly later, as one of the measures demanded by the IMF/EU in return for the guarantee of the loan could have some very ugly consequences. Surely they will have to tone down that demand? A trade war would be a disaster and could lead to something even worse. As you know I am strongly in favour of the principle of self-determination. The 'West' needs to accept the fact that the Crimean people have had their say and that it's time to move on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 You correctly assume that, like yourself, I'm no expert on Ukrainian politics. However, from what little I do know I would sincerely hope that they don't give Timoshenko another shot at it as there seem to be huge question marks over her record. With regard to the gas question I was simply making the point that a doubling of the price of gas on May1st for domestic consumers, industrial only 40% apparently and slightly later, as one of the measures demanded by the IMF/EU in return for the guarantee of the loan could have some very ugly consequences. Surely they will have to tone down that demand? A trade war would be a disaster and could lead to something even worse. As you know I am strongly in favour of the principle of self-determination. The 'West' needs to accept the fact that the Crimean people have had their say and that it's time to move on. A sensibly argued post. I think ultimately diplomacy might come to a conclusion about Crimea whereby it becomes a Russian oblast but special rights and guarantees are offered to the non-Russian inhabitants. The 40% who almost certainly didn't vote in the joke "referendum". I thought I've read that Tymoshenko had ruled out running again, but you cannot always believe what politicians say I suppose! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cambridge Batch Red Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 A trade war would be a disaster and could lead to something even worse. As you know I am strongly in favour of the principle of self-determination. The 'West' needs to accept the fact that the Crimean people have had their say and that it's time to move on. I agree, it's over now, let it rest. The Crimea issue is a ripple from the decolonisation of the soviet empire. Russia is protecting its own kith and kin. We did the same with the Falklands and should have done so for the Rhodesians in Zimbabwe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
marshy Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 A sensibly argued post. I think ultimately diplomacy might come to a conclusion about Crimea whereby it becomes a Russian oblast but special rights and guarantees are offered to the non-Russian inhabitants. The 40% who almost certainly didn't vote in the joke "referendum". I thought I've read that Tymoshenko had ruled out running again, but you cannot always believe what politicians say I suppose! That's a great word isn't it...''oblast''. One feels somehow there should be a space after the 'o'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 27, 2014 Report Share Posted March 27, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 This is about Clegg v Farage. I have no idea why you need to engage with me on the topic. These again are my thoughts and no comments except your opinion on the participants performances are needed, after you watch the debate. I have no interest in arguing what was said with you, as it won't make the slightest difference to anyone elses intended vote. Nick Clegg. Well in front for the first 15 minutes but was exposed gradually to be short on substance. Has 4 key points and stuck doggedly to them, eventually to the detriment of his side. The 'Spanish tourist' idiocy descended into the false info about European laws percentage - and he never recovered. Considering he had been on the national television stage countless times, it was hard to see him improving his performance, but if able to switch topics more confidently next time, instead of reverting to the same points over and over again, should come across better. Was horribly patronising to the quiet builder (John) and just didn't listen to his question. 6/10 Nigel Farage Was nervous and it showed. Very hesitant to start and not his aggressive, blustery self. Settled though, and was able after 25 minutes or so to bounce around the topics without reverting to the same point ad infinitum. Once Clegg made the horrendous gaffe re Euro law %, you could see his eyes light up and it was a bit of vintage Farage. Dodged the 'spouse-employment' bullet, and Clegg missed a chance. Not used to live televised debate, and it's difficult to see Farage delivering two weak performances on the trot. Will learn a lot from this, and if improves as expected, will be more than a handful for Clegg next time 6.5/10 Nick Ferrari Hardly impartial, but a much easier ride than Farage is used to Audience Seemed quite a fair mix of trades,cultures and genders. Some good questions asked. Overall Farage just shaded it, in a sub-par performance. Will learn from this. Cleggs gaffe gave Farage a gee-up which was needed. A slight win for Farage, but a large win for UKIP, based on audience reaction at the beginning and end of the debate, and the subsequent exit polls. Big showing in Europe for UKIP, and Westminster beckons. For Clegg - annihilation awaits for the Lib-Dems, and retirement to a nice Euro law practise for Nick. Ah ok. You're interested in this as a 'cult of personality'. Fair enough. As I'm interested in their policies rather than their 'performance', we shall part ways SX225 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Admin Ian M Posted March 28, 2014 Admin Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 I haven't read all this thread but does anyone else see this as UKIP auditioning/trying to position themselves to become the Tories next coalition partner? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted March 28, 2014 Report Share Posted March 28, 2014 The only winners after these debates will be the big 2 as usual, they must be pissing themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Big Nige has his own documentary on Channel 4 tomorrow night for those who enjoy that sort of thing Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Big Nige has his own documentary on Channel 4 tomorrow night for those who enjoy that sort of thing I wonder if it'll touch on these facts - both of which might be a crushing blow for RG... http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/396897/Great-grandfather-of-Ukip-leader-Nigel-Farage-was-born-to-German-immigrants http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257811/UKIP-Belgian-baiter-leader-Nigel-Farage-family-links--Belgium.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I wonder if it'll touch on these facts - both of which might be a crushing blow for RG...http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/396897/Great-grandfather-of-Ukip-leader-Nigel-Farage-was-born-to-German-immigrantshttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257811/UKIP-Belgian-baiter-leader-Nigel-Farage-family-links--Belgium.htmlTo be fair to Ferauge (as we now know him to be called), he's married to a German so I don't think he'll be too concerned to find out he's pure- blooded European, though perhaps it could be pointed out to him that without prior liberal immigration policies he'd be speaking Flemish in a "non-country" I'm playing five-a-side tomorrow evening so I'll not watch it, but from the trailer it looks like an hour of another privileged, wealthy, middle-aged man from the southeast trying to convince everyone that he's in touch with the common man Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 To be fair to Ferauge (as we now know him to be called), he's married to a German so I don't think he'll be too concerned to find out he's pure- blooded European, though perhaps it could be pointed out to him that without prior liberal immigration policies he'd be speaking Flemish in a "non-country" I'm playing five-a-side tomorrow evening so I'll not watch it, but from the trailer it looks like an hour of another privileged, wealthy, middle-aged man from the southeast trying to convince everyone that he's in touch with the common man A friend of mine opines that surely as a keen Little Englander he should pronounce his own name Farr-adge (to rhyme with Garage) rather than the French Fa-raj. It's all a mystery... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 A friend of mine opines that surely as a keen Little Englander he should pronounce his own name Farr-adge (to rhyme with Garage) rather than the French Fa-raj. It's all a mystery... I've figured it out! He's a secret Franco-German-Belgian EUagent, sent over here to be an obnoxious ***** and bang on about leaving Europe so that eventually everyone demands a single currency and further integration just to spite him! Sneaky 4th Reich, Cultural Marxists... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
screech Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 A friend of mine opines that surely as a keen Little Englander he should pronounce his own name Farr-adge (to rhyme with Garage) rather than the French Fa-raj. It's all a mystery... Just goes to show how little you know about UKIP Robbo. UKIP aren't against immigration, they are against mass immigration. You're the typical stick his fingers in his ears and shout lalalala when it comes to UKIP. No wonder you worked for the BBC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Just goes to show how little you know about UKIP Robbo. UKIP aren't against immigration, they are against mass immigration. You're the typical stick his fingers in his ears and shout lalalala when it comes to UKIP. No wonder you worked for the BBC. How does a guy I know's opinion on how Farage should pronounce his name have anything to do with the finer points of Ukip policy? And why has the f-ing BBC have to be trotted out in every bloody thread? Can I once again point out that I work for Red Robbo Global Enterprises and have done for many years. Right now, I'm working to set up a project for a magazine that circulates to extremely wealthy private investors. "Non-lefty" enough for you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted March 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 A friend of mine opines that surely as a keen Little Englander he should pronounce his own name Farr-adge (to rhyme with Garage) rather than the French Fa-raj. It's all a mystery... Surely the BBC EU propaganda news and views unit - as known EU 4th Reichers - should broadcast under the name of "Die Deutsche Wochenschau" ????!!! "Deutsche Wochenschau No. 594 1942" is about the Crimea - an area contested hotly by Chancellor Hitler's EU in 1942 just as it's now contested by Chancellor Merkel's EU in 2014...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted March 30, 2014 Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 Surely the BBC EU propaganda news and views unit - as known EU 4th Reichers - should broadcast under the name of "Die Deutsche Wochenschau" ????!!! "Deutsche Wochenschau No. 594 1942" is about the Crimea - an area contested hotly by Chancellor Hitler's EU in 1942 just as it's now contested by Chancellor Merkel's EU in 2014...... Why is my post anything to do with the BBC? I gave the opinion of a guy I know from the pub who is a retired publisher, living off his family's money and although he doesn't vote, expresses the sort of kneejerk Tory views often espoused here. Anyway, Gobbers I'd knock off the continual WWII references. You might upset Nigel's wife. And as for his great-grandad... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfl6Lu3xQW0 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr Mosquito Posted March 30, 2014 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2014 I wonder if it'll touch on these facts - both of which might be a crushing blow for RG... http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/396897/Great-grandfather-of-Ukip-leader-Nigel-Farage-was-born-to-German-immigrants http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2257811/UKIP-Belgian-baiter-leader-Nigel-Farage-family-links--Belgium.html I can better that, I've got a German ancestor that was an officer in the doomed King Louis XVI's army that fought in America on the side of the American Colonists. He was a German on the winning side over there !!!!!! Luckily for him he was wounded in the chest by a British Army bullet so he retired from the French Army and he settled in Philadelphia. Had he not been wounded he would have most likely ended up dying fighting for his King in France or he could have been captured and guillotined by French revolutionaries. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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