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I never said SC was ever the answer, just pointed out that he would have to go some to have a record as bad as the previous manager.

Which is irrelevant and not a justifiable defence of cotterill, about whom this thread is...

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I'll try and keep it short then Kid.

 

SO'D had no interest, imo, in forming a rapport with the fans - 3 examples given in my post above, although you have interpreted one differently.

 

He did though have a strong self interest in taking opportunities - as outlined by you above - to attempt to justify his failing methods with rhetoric, which increasigly fell on deaf ears with many.

 

 

strange you feel SCs words are being unfairly interpreted yet are using other supporters who unfairly interpreted SODs comments as proof he was no good with fans.

 

If SOD had no interest / did not care about fans he would not have done the Q&As and podcast that fans invited him to - he was not expected to do them, did not have to do them, no other manager I know of has done them like this - so he obviously wanted fans to know what was happening, what he was trying to do - which is the important thing.... so he wasn't a happy chappy you'd want a pint with moving pepper pots around showing you his formations.... so what, that doesn't make you a better manager.

 

 

Did Sc acknowledge fans on Saturday ?

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I'll try and keep it short then Kid.

 

SO'D had no interest, imo, in forming a rapport with the fans - 3 examples given in my post above, although you have interpreted one differently.

 

It's not a different interpretation - you are wrong, as he was not expected to attend any of those 3 events I mentioned. Why else would he of attended these events in his own time if it wasn't to build up a rapport with fans?

 

 

He did though have a strong self interest in taking opportunities - as outlined by you above - to attempt to justify his failing methods with rhetoric, which increasigly fell on deaf ears with many.

 

Which is exactly what SC is doing, although his rhetoric appears to be falling on deaf ears in record time.

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It's not a different interpretation - you are wrong, as he was not expected to attend any of those 3 events I mentioned. Why else would he of attended these events in his own time if it wasn't to build up a rapport with fans?

 

 

Which is exactly what SC is doing, although his rhetoric appears to be falling on deaf ears in record time.

 

The different interpretation I spoke of was nothing to do with fans' events - you chose to take a different interpretation of his comments over the sidelining of Fontaine and Kilkenny.

 

He attended these events at least partly out of self interest because it was an opportunity to further justify his thinking, and give him more time when his words and methods were very often not even being reflected in performances, let alone results. He had no interest in building a genuine rapport with the fans when he criticised them, indicated he thought them responsible for not being able to include Kilkenny and Fontaine, or ignored their post match applause as he approached the Atyeo tunnel.

 

SC made a point of praising the fans and sympathised that they had to witness an abysmal performance - what a blustering buffooon! Or maybe the sort of straightforward comments which most fans would appreciate and could help to build a rapport unless, of course, you've decided from day one you detest him.

 

His words didn't sound anything but genuine to me either - SC simply displayed a basic natural empathy with supporters, something which seemed entirely alien to SO'D.

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He attended these events at least partly out of self interest because it was an opportunity to further justify his thinking, and give him more time when his words and methods were very often not even being reflected in performances, let alone results.

 

And you know this how exactly??!! Pure speculation once again like your absurd comment that SOD was responsible for 2,500 season ticket holders not turning up! Face it, a manager attending a Q & A at a supporters pub and appearing on a fans' podcast is unprecedented and clearly an attempt to have dialogue with all aspects of the fanbase in a proactive manner.

 

 

SC made a point of praising the fans and sympathised that they had to witness an abysmal performance - what a blustering buffooon! Or maybe the sort of straightforward comments which most fans would appreciate and could help to build a rapport unless, of course, you've decided from day one you detest him.

 

His words didn't sound anything but genuine to me either - SC simply displayed a basic natural empathy with supporters, something which seemed entirely alien to SO'D.

 

Er...I seem to remember SOD being scathing of our performances on a couple of occasions, Wycombe springs to mind. So what? SC's charm offensive doesn't seem to be working, does it?

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strange you feel SCs words are being unfairly interpreted yet are using other supporters who unfairly interpreted SODs comments as proof he was no good with fans.

 

If SOD had no interest / did not care about fans he would not have done the Q&As and podcast that fans invited him to - he was not expected to do them, did not have to do them, no other manager I know of has done them like this - so he obviously wanted fans to know what was happening, what he was trying to do - which is the important thing.... so he wasn't a happy chappy you'd want a pint with moving pepper pots around showing you his formations.... so what, that doesn't make you a better manager.

 

 

Did Sc acknowledge fans on Saturday ?

 

I suspect on this occasion he was so furious and disappointed that his mind was firmly on getting into the dressing room quickly and laying into the players.

 

He did though make a made a point of saying, 'we had a great following here today, a great following, and we let them down big time.'

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And you know this how exactly??!! Pure speculation once again like your absurd comment that SOD was responsible for 2,500 season ticket holders not turning up! Face it, a manager attending a Q & A at a supporters pub and appearing on a fans' podcast is unprecedented and clearly an attempt to have dialogue with all aspects of the fanbase in a proactive manner.

 

 

Er...I seem to remember SOD being scathing of our performances on a couple of occasions, Wycombe springs to mind. So what? SC's charm offensive doesn't seem to be working, does it?

 

 

SC is a happy chappy and gets a bye, SOD was miserable so everything he did was an attack on the club / fans - Fans always say they want the club to be honest with them, along comes SOD, fans suddenly realise they don't like honesty after all - bring back the cliched, one of the lads, happy chappy manager, because for fans at the end of the day ignorance is bliss............   

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I suspect on this occasion he was so furious and disappointed that his mind was firmly on getting into the dressing room quickly and laying into the players.

 

He did though make a made a point of saying, 'we had a great following here today, a great following, and we let them down big time.'

 

 

SOD also said the same about the away support being "magnificant" "a shame the fans did not get the result they deserved" etc - 

 

It just reads that almost identical situations because one manager is a happier upbeat chap you choose to think all the possible best for him, and yet almost identical situations all the possible worst of another manager. It is so biased, and unfounded that it's shocking to actually read - all the moreso as you are usually a level headed decent poster.

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And you know this how exactly??!! Pure speculation once again like your absurd comment that SOD was responsible for 2,500 season ticket holders not turning up! Face it, a manager attending a Q & A at a supporters pub and appearing on a fans' podcast is unprecedented and clearly an attempt to have dialogue with all aspects of the fanbase in a proactive manner.

 

 

Er...I seem to remember SOD being scathing of our performances on a couple of occasions, Wycombe springs to mind. So what? SC's charm offensive doesn't seem to be working, does it?

 

I said the 2,500 not turning up was a conservative estimate, and I absolutely stand by that.

 

It's not exactly difficult to look around such an empty ground and make such an estimate, whether you agree with it or not.

 

If you were there during SO'D's final games presumably you accept that a very significant amount of STH's were not attending?

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I suspect on this occasion he was so furious and disappointed that his mind was firmly on getting into the dressing room quickly and laying into the players.

 

He did though make a made a point of saying, 'we had a great following here today, a great following, and we let them down big time.'

 

Interesting, but SOD isn't allowed the same excuse I take it?

 

He was asked about his views of the fans at the Q & A and was full of praise for the fanbase. I suppose you will just come back with "well he would say that" but if SC had said it, it would've been oh so sincere and wonderful!

 

I said the 2,500 not turning up was a conservative estimate, and I absolutely stand by that.

 

It's not exactly difficult to look around such an empty ground and make such an estimate, whether you agree with it or not.

 

If you were there during SO'D's final games presumably you accept that a very significant amount of STH's were not attending?

 

I think that to suggest a minimum of 2,500 season ticket holders were not attending due to SOD is laughable. Approx 30% of season ticket holders...na.

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SC is a happy chappy and gets a bye, SOD was miserable so everything he did was an attack on the club / fans - Fans always say they want the club to be honest with them, along comes SOD, fans suddenly realise they don't like honesty after all - bring back the cliched, one of the lads, happy chappy manager, because for fans at the end of the day ignorance is bliss............   

 

SOD also said the same about the away support being "magnificant" "a shame the fans did not get the result they deserved" etc - 

 

It just reads that almost identical situations because one manager is a happier upbeat chap you choose to think all the possible best for him, and yet almost identical situations all the possible worst of another manager. It is so biased, and unfounded that it's shocking to actually read - all the moreso as you are usually a level headed decent poster.

 

I don't see anything dishonest in what SC has said.

 

I seem to be in the minority (on this thread certainly!) but's that's fine by me - those most disparaging of Cotterill seem to be those most embittered by SO'D's departure. 

 

I'm not. I'm very glad he's gone and though I'm far from convinced by Cotterill, it's obviously in our best interests now to support him and at least reserve judgement until we see whether he can keep us up.

 

If you think what I say is shocking I can only say I find the criticism of Cotterill, and everything he says and does, is absolutely mind blowing to me.

 

By what I normally consider to be level headed posters, as well.

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Interesting, but SOD isn't allowed the same excuse I take it?

 

He was asked about his views of the fans at the Q & A and was full of praise for the fanbase. I suppose you will just come back with "well he would say that" but if SC had said it, it would've been oh so sincere and wonderful!

 

 

I think that to suggest a minimum of 2,500 season ticket holders were not attending due to SOD is laughable. Approx 30% of season ticket holders...na.

 

So you've said..

 

I think to suggest more than 7 out of 10 were turning up is equally ludicrous.

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I don't see anything dishonest in what SC has said.

 

I seem to be in the minority (on this thread certainly!) but's that's fine by me - those most disparaging of Cotterill seem to be those most embittered by SO'D's departure. 

 

I'm not. I'm very glad he's gone and though I'm far from convinced by Cotterill, it's obviously in our best interests now to support him and at least reserve judgement until we see whether he can keep us up.

 

If you think what I say is shocking I can only say I find the criticism of Cotterill, and everything he says and does, is absolutely mind blowing to me.

 

By what I normally consider to be level headed posters, as well.

 

 

I don't think anyone has said SC (or SOD) were dishonest.    I expect most people understand why (or agree) that SOD had to go, results at the end of the day are king, but for me (and many others) it did feel like we could have have stuck with him (we will never know if it would have paid off or not). 

 

Of all our recent managers I would have been happy to give any of them more time. SC is the first I am just full stop unhappy with being appointed, that does not mean I want him to fail, or us to lose, you do not have to like the manager to support the club - hell I sincerely wish/hope he does prove me wrong, but in my heart I do not feel he can progress the club (even if we avoid relegation) in the way SOD/DEL could have if given long enough.

 

The fans have been starved of any success for years now, relegation battles for 4 season in a row (when we all felt we could finally be a decent Championship club) has embittered a lot of people. SOD was torn apart, and every word he said scrutinized to suit peoples view of him, and SC is suffering the same fate - if it was Roman times then SL would throw some slaves to the lions to sate our appetites. Instead we have the only visible face of the club, the manager, to scrutinize, blame,  and I fear SC will come under the same pressure (as he probably should) to get results and move the club forward.

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So you've said..

 

I think to suggest more than 7 out of 10 were turning up is equally ludicrous.

 

Ok, running with your theory then. Next question is, how do you know those 3 out of 10 not attending were solely down to the manager? There could obviously be many reasons why people don't attend after purchasing a season ticket.

 

And the question after that is, how many have returned now SC is in charge taking into consideration that obviously some may have already been disenchanted with his appointment and left already!

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And you know this how exactly??!! Pure speculation once again like your absurd comment that SOD was responsible for 2,500 season ticket holders not turning up! Face it, a manager attending a Q & A at a supporters pub and appearing on a fans' podcast is unprecedented and clearly an attempt to have dialogue with all aspects of the fanbase in a proactive manner.

 

 

Er...I seem to remember SOD being scathing of our performances on a couple of occasions, Wycombe springs to mind. So what? SC's charm offensive doesn't seem to be working, does it?

I think the SOD v SC argument is getting a bit tiring now. They have both made mistakes bringing in poor players (El Terribly Bad being the worst example admittedly) but the fact is that we have had a squad jam packed with poor players all season. The Board started this all with the cost cutting to achieve FFFP and unfortunately BOTH of our Managers have not used the limited resources available wisely at all. Add in a bunch of players that turn up when they feel like it and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.

 

Marlon Harewood - waste of a wage.

Nicky Shorey - waste of a wage.

Lewis Dunk - waste of a wage.

McLaughlin - waste of a wage.

Wade Elliott - waste of a wage.

Simon Gillette - hardly "value for money" is he?

Simon Moore - hardly "value for money" so far.

Tyrone Barnett - waste of a wage.

 

How much cash have that lot cost us this season? Four signed by SOD, three by SC and one by both.

 

And the list goes on if you look hard enough.

 

The problem as I see it is that SOD messed up in the vital pre-season period bringing in players that couldn't cut the mustard and Cotterill has simply repeated the same mistakes in the January window. If we go down they are BOTH responsible.

 

But what we cannot do is let the players get away scot free whilst we attack the previous and current Managers because it is those wasters who turn up now and again but go into hiding most weeks that have been most responsible for landing us where we are. And MOST of them do not deserve to wear the red shirt.

 

I am hanging my old hat on the fact that Pearson and then hopefully Kelly can add that bit of impetus required to keep us in League 1. Then, either way, it's mass clearout time and start again. If it means offering settlements to some of the gutless toe rags that we still have on contracts then so be it.

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I think the SOD v SC argument is getting a bit tiring now. They have both made mistakes bringing in poor players (El Terribly Bad being the worst example admittedly) but the fact is that we have had a squad jam packed with poor players all season. The Board started this all with the cost cutting to achieve FFFP and unfortunately BOTH of our Managers have not used the limited resources available wisely at all. Add in a bunch of players that turn up when they feel like it and you have the perfect recipe for disaster.

 

Marlon Harewood - waste of a wage.

Nicky Shorey - waste of a wage.

Lewis Dunk - waste of a wage.

McLaughlin - waste of a wage.

Wade Elliott - waste of a wage.

Simon Gillette - hardly "value for money" is he?

Simon Moore - hardly "value for money" so far.

Tyrone Barnett - waste of a wage.

 

How much cash have that lot cost us this season? Four signed by SOD, three by SC and one by both.

 

And the list goes on if you look hard enough.

 

The problem as I see it is that SOD messed up in the vital pre-season period bringing in players that couldn't cut the mustard and Cotterill has simply repeated the same mistakes in the January window. If we go down they are BOTH responsible.

 

But what we cannot do is let the players get away scot free whilst we attack the previous and current Managers because it is those wasters who turn up now and again but go into hiding most weeks that have been most responsible for landing us where we are. And MOST of them do not deserve to wear the red shirt.

 

I am hanging my old hat on the fact that Pearson and then hopefully Kelly can add that bit of impetus required to keep us in League 1. Then, either way, it's mass clearout time and start again. If it means offering settlements to some of the gutless toe rags that we still have on contracts then so be it.

 

great post.

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I don't think anyone has said SC (or SOD) were dishonest.    I expect most people understand why (or agree) that SOD had to go, results at the end of the day are king, but for me (and many others) it did feel like we could have have stuck with him (we will never know if it would have paid off or not). 

 

Of all our recent managers I would have been happy to give any of them more time. SC is the first I am just full stop unhappy with being appointed, that does not mean I want him to fail, or us to lose, you do not have to like the manager to support the club - hell I sincerely wish/hope he does prove me wrong, but in my heart I do not feel he can progress the club (even if we avoid relegation) in the way SOD/DEL could have if given long enough.

 

The fans have been starved of any success for years now, relegation battles for 4 season in a row (when we all felt we could finally be a decent Championship club) has embittered a lot of people. SOD was torn apart, and every word he said scrutinized to suit peoples view of him, and SC is suffering the same fate - if it was Roman times then SL would throw some slaves to the lions to sate our appetites. Instead we have the only visible face of the club, the manager, to scrutinize, blame,  and I fear SC will come under the same pressure (as he probably should) to get results and move the club forward.

 

Fiale - I have seen SC quite openly being labelled 'a liar' on this forum.

 

You said we want honesty from the club and we got it from SO'D. No problem with that, but I don't see any diminishment of honesty under SC. If he says things that might at the same time ingratiate him to the fans, but MEANS them, what's the problem?

 

As for Del, I was one of his biggest supporters on here and yes, I still believe we would be far better off now had we kept him and got rid of certain players instead at the first opportunity.

 

We've had 4/5 years of misery now and SO'D, and now Cotterill are feeling the resentment and disillusionment of fans built up over many years. It is very difficult for a manager to preach patience when so many supporters are at their wits end at the constant disappointment and failure from the club, particularly when that patience is given but little tangible progress is seen on the pitch.

 

I certainly don't recall anything like this level of abuse for SO'D - certainly not at this stage of his tenure when he was almost being given a free pass by many to oversee relegation.

 

If you thought SO'D had to go due to terrible results and the likely outcome, wouldn't the new manager - whoever he was - by avoiding relegation intrinsically progress the club. even if by dint of stabilising our status and not regressing further?

 

I absolutely agree that Cotterill should be scrutinised and be under extreme pressure to move the club forward - it comes with the job - but he is being pilloried more than any other I can remember at such an early stage.

 

I am not a fan of SC, I don't hate him either. I'm neutral but determined to be supportive rather than look for ways to tear him to shreds.

 

I do object to a manager who is clearly working hard for the club, doing his best, and showing some passion for our plight, being savaged on here before he's had a real chance to show whether he's going to benefit the club or not.

 

And before you say it, I remain convinced SO'D had ample time to show he was not going to do that.

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Ok, running with your theory then. Next question is, how do you know those 3 out of 10 not attending were solely down to the manager? There could obviously be many reasons why people don't attend after purchasing a season ticket.

 

And the question after that is, how many have returned now SC is in charge taking into consideration that obviously some may have already been disenchanted with his appointment and left already!

 

The crowds at AG were noticeably bigger after SO'D's departure.

 

I don't remember ever saying City should appoint Cotterill, and I'm not convinced by his appointment now, but the initial response at least was largely positive and reflected in increased attendances.

 

I don't know how many have left already - some, no doubt - but it struck me as an overwhelming thumbs down to SO'D immediately prior to his departure, and the crowds have certainly seemed larger and livelier since.

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I may be wrong, but if not this thread and some of the contributors will look a bit sad, and in any case the constant sniping from day one at a bloke who is on OUR SIDE is embarrassing.

Nick, I get where you're coming from on this, and I agree that constant sniping isn't helpful. But what very often starts it off is the constant sniping at another bloke who was also on our side.

It works both ways.

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The problem as I see it is that SOD messed up in the vital pre-season period bringing in players that couldn't cut the mustard and Cotterill has simply repeated the same mistakes in the January window. If we go down they are BOTH responsible.

 

 

 

Good post but I think Keith Burt is getting off astoundingly lightly from fans.    It helps that he is anonymous in terms of media interviews.   He is responsible for recruitment and he has one of the largest budgets to work with in the division but the quality of the loans and transfers suggest he has failed dismally.  If he hasn't been given free reign to use his 'expertise' in recruitment then pride should mean he moves on or the board should go back to the old structure.  

 

I think Brian Tinnion with his European links could be given the role although, there again, I get the impression he is doing a good job in his current position.  The club made an error with a couple of overseas signings and then seemed to decide to avoid all overseas signings. As the domestic signings show it's not just isolated overseas signings that have been a mistake but our whole transfer approach has been a mess.   The second rate expensive defensive signings, the failure to bring in a quality midfielder and the release of the likes of Pitman and Bolasie for a pittance only scratch the surface in highlighting the poor wheeling and dealing that has gone on.

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Nick, I get where you're coming from on this, and I agree that constant sniping isn't helpful. But what very often starts it off is the constant sniping at another bloke who was also on our side.

It works both ways.

 

Yes, but the difference is Cotterill has been hammered by a significant minority since the day he arrived, mainly if not exclusively by those who bought into SOD's rhetoric about long term player development. Those people have expressed disappointment at SOD being sacked, that's fair enough its their opinion, but they have gone further than that with insults of Cotterill which have been personal, unnecessary, and unfounded.

 

In response, others have come to Cotterill's defence and in doing so have inevitably compared Cotterill's record here with SOD's.

 

 

The out and out hostility from some towards Cotterill, who I have to repeat is on OUR SIDE, while he is here and trying to do a job for us, is IMO unforgivable and far less understandable than criticism of SOD who is no longer here.

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Yes, but the difference is Cotterill has been hammered by a significant minority since the day he arrived, mainly if not exclusively by those who bought into SOD's rhetoric about long term player development. Those people have expressed disappointment at SOD being sacked, that's fair enough its their opinion, but they have gone further than that with insults of Cotterill which have been personal, unnecessary, and unfounded.

 

In response, others have come to Cotterill's defence and in doing so have inevitably compared Cotterill's record here with SOD's.

 

 

The out and out hostility from some towards Cotterill, who I have to repeat is on OUR SIDE, while he is here and trying to do a job for us, is IMO unforgivable and far less understandable than criticism of SOD who is no longer here.

Some people seem more concerned about supporting their "forum reputation" than their football team.

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The club is at it's lowest point I can remember including 82, Pulis, et all.

My worry is simple, I cannot see anything within the club to suggest we can climb out of this, even avoiding relegation will not put right the ills within. Therefore what can we as supporters realistically do to change how the direction the club is going?

Cheer up :-) what's the worst that can happen we get relegated have to play in a league where our youngsters get a season or two of playing and growing into a team? That's the worst assuming the senior pros have relegation clauses and get to take a pay check for failure.

The best is we start again next season in this league with a clean slate. That's assuming we don't string together a run to the playoffs :laugh:

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