Davros Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Looking through your list TRL, it would appear that whilst most of these countries do indeed have a possible death penalty for the crimes you list, people are very rarely executed for these crimes and it tends to be a theoretical punishment that is discouraged by law. I would be interested if you had examples of where people were actually executed rather than just threatened with it though. On the other hand, shouldn't we be getting more concerned with China that executes several times more people every single year than the rest of the world put together! I think there are plenty of people and countries going on about China, and have done so for years. So it is not a unknown, but as I said you have to do something to be executed there, not be something! Big big difference Take a look at the section death Penalty here http://report2009.amnesty.org/en/regions/middle-east-north-africa/saudi-arabia It may not be fully reported,but it is happening,I may take a look for Iran Pakistan etc a bit later Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Saudi Arabia is fully sharia, take a look at my link in the post above, so I am happy to slander it, it isn't really slander,is it, is the truth... Where is Mecca again? There have been parts added to by the royal family concerning more up-to-date corporate law etc, but the basis of its disgraceful antics for Blasphemy Homosexuality and apostasy come straight from that lovely Religions laws. You can try and hide or dismiss the truth Davros, but parts of the Religion and the law taken from it, the religion you have chosen to follow, not born into, are utterly vile. Name these countries, that have it written in law that you can been killed for A[apostasy,Blasphemy or Homosexuality. If you want to defend Islam, come on name these non Islamic countries that kill you fro your sexuality or Religious belief. There are plenty of countries out there killing for rape, murder, drug trafficking terrorism etc, but you know and I know that is completely different.. Its also an absolute monarchy based on vast wealth. Thats not Sharia Law thats a Monarch abusing power. http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/saudi-arabia-uses-capital-offence-apostasy-stifle-debate-2012-12-24 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Its also an absolute monarchy based on vast wealth. Thats not Sharia Law thats a Monarch abusing power. http://www.amnesty.org/en/news/saudi-arabia-uses-capital-offence-apostasy-stifle-debate-2012-12-24 Where does the apostasy law come from davros? it comes from somewhere to invoke! Blame everything but the religion if you want, if it wasn't in the Religion to hide behind, there wouldn't be a problem would there? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZepperin Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Crikey. And I thought it was tough being a Catholic on here! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 For the benefit of RedZepperin and his left-footed friends, I would draw people's attention to an article in the Guardian today. Apparently, Chilean nuns told unmarried mothers in a maternity ward that their babies had been stillborn, raised the children in their convent, and then sold them to wealthy childless families. Since I know how well the Guardian goes down with some here, I'll give a link to Yahoo World News - http://article.wn.com/view-mobile/2014/05/16/Chile_probing_reports_that_priest_stole_babies_for_adoption_fy/ Similar practices have been reported in Spain, Canada and, of course, Ireland. In some ways, that's even worse than what Boko Haram did. A difficult one to call, that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZepperin Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 I'm not sure how this thread started but it appears to consist of pinpointing some outrageous behaviour by someone, relating it to their religion or nationality or something and then blaming everyone else in their religion or nationality for the same behaviour. Is that how it goes? OK. Any Australian painters on here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Er. I think it's more about how people use religion - any religion - to justify oppressing others. The point about Boko Haram and the Chilean nuns is that they would both claim that their appalling behaviour stems directly from their religious beliefs. I think you will find that no one has yet tried to justify child abuse on the grounds that he was an Australian painter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibbler Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 I know this. Along with spit roasting babies on the crusades etc etc. Difference is, it stopped. In many Muslim countries just by leaving your religion or joining another you are on a death sentence. I am purposely leaving out fundamentalist killings now, just the bare bones of a unforgiving religion. If anyone can point to another religion that does this in 2014 I'd be interested to know. My point was that apostasy as a crime and (it's punishment) is not unique to Islam. I assume that the point you and a couple of other people are trying to make is that there is something uniquely bad or violent about Islam. My argument is that there's no real difference between the three Abrahamic religions. the problems you see are down to politics and power mongering. Out of interest would you say that the troubles in Ireland were caused by religion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Incidentally, we now have a corollary to Godwin's Law - "if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will compare someone or something to Hitler or Nazism". May I call it Saville's Law? - "if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will claim that his opponent condones child abuse". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibbler Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 May I call it Saville's Law? - "if an online discussion (regardless of topic or scope) goes on long enough, sooner or later someone will claim that his opponent condones child abuse". Yes you can and at least one person here is guilty of invoking both Godwin's and Saville's Law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dezgimed Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Is there something missing in your life? Allah? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davros Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TRL Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 My point was that apostasy as a crime and (it's punishment) is not unique to Islam. I assume that the point you and a couple of other people are trying to make is that there is something uniquely bad or violent about Islam. My argument is that there's no real difference between the three Abrahamic religions. the problems you see are down to politics and power mongering. Out of interest would you say that the troubles in Ireland were caused by religion? And my point is, I am fully aware of that, but how many religions practice it now in 2014? IMO all religions are as bad as one another and prey on those needing guidance. But some seem to be so archaic they is no place for them in this day and age. At the end of the day, I think anyone who believes in religion to be slightly barmy, but to choose one that won't let you leave, seems tome just a little daft. Irish problems, I'm not sure it started through religion, more a dislike of governance and rule by another country, it may well have had religion thrust to the front as years passed by, to give some half arsed justification for the violence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZepperin Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 Er. I think it's more about how people use religion - any religion - to justify oppressing others. The point about Boko Haram and the Chilean nuns is that they would both claim that their appalling behaviour stems directly from their religious beliefs. I think you will find that no one has yet tried to justify child abuse on the grounds that he was an Australian painter. I'm confused. We can bully any religious person because of appalling acts perpetrated by a minority of religious people but the same does not apply to Australian painters? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 I'm confused. We can bully any religious person because of appalling acts perpetrated by a minority of religious people but the same does not apply to Australian painters? Who's being bullied? Vigorously disagreeing with somebody's ideas is not, in my book, bullying them. If anyone wants to attack my atheism and my detestation of organised religion, let them feel free to do so. It's called freedom of speech, although it's becoming increasingly rare because of those who are afraid of serious debate. Your views have no right to be immune to criticism and neither have mine. Personal abuse is another matter and, in my opinion, a sure sign of a lost argument. I would suggest that it's fairly important to know the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted May 17, 2014 Report Share Posted May 17, 2014 I'm confused. We can bully any religious person because of appalling acts perpetrated by a minority of religious people but the same does not apply to Australian painters? If there were a clear trend of certain crimes being perpetrated by Australian painters, at levels wholly disproprtionate to their numbers, then you would be right to be suspicious of them. That is not to say that every Australian painter is a wrong 'un but that there is clearly something within the belief system of Australian painters that makes them more likely to perpetrate certain crimes. Look at gun ownership: heavily legislated against in this country. I like firing guns, and would like to own a few and shoot them, but I can't. Because a small number of gun owners go mental and start shooting people. So I, despite being a law-abiding citizen, get tarred with the same brush and am not allowed to own a gun because a tiny minority of those who have previously owned guns committed crimes. The question on this thread is not are there decent law-abiding muslims, of course there are, the great majority, but is there something intrinsic to the religion itself which generates the extreme crimes that we see time and time again? If so then, like gun ownership, should something be done about it to protect potential victims? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZepperin Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 is there something intrinsic to the religion itself which generates the extreme crimes that we see time and time again? No. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZepperin Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 Who's being bullied? Vigorously disagreeing with somebody's ideas is not, in my book, bullying them. If anyone wants to attack my atheism and my detestation of organised religion, let them feel free to do so. It's called freedom of speech, although it's becoming increasingly rare because of those who are afraid of serious debate. Your views have no right to be immune to criticism and neither have mine. Personal abuse is another matter and, in my opinion, a sure sign of a lost argument. I would suggest that it's fairly important to know the difference. I'll be honest with you, I haven't really read through this thread in detail but there appears to be a chap on here whose religion is being insulted. I would regard that as bullying. On a separate point, I do find the attitude of people who these days call themselves "atheists" to be a lot more aggressive than (I imagine) they are aware of. Why say "left-footers", for example? How many derogatory terms are there for religious people? How many are there for atheists? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZepperin Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 And before you say it, Aizoon. I suspect you are a lapsed Catholic anyway. That hedgehog thing has a distinct "guardian angel" feel to it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 I'll be honest with you, I haven't really read through this thread in detail but there appears to be a chap on here whose religion is being insulted. I would regard that as bullying. On a separate point, I do find the attitude of people who these days call themselves "atheists" to be a lot more aggressive than (I imagine) they are aware of. Why say "left-footers", for example? How many derogatory terms are there for religious people? How many are there for atheists? Oh good grief! "Left-footers" was a joke - I presume they're barred as well. If you want a derogatory term for atheists, you've achieved it with 'people who these days call themselves "atheists"'. I call myself an "atheist" because that's what I am. If people can't get their head around that, that's their problem, not mine. I am content to say there are no fairies at the bottom of my garden and that there is no God. To describe myself as agnostic with respect to either would be simply a cop-out. I understand that people describe themselves as "agnostic", possibly to pacify the True Believers. That's their choice, not mine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RedZepperin Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 I am content to say there are no fairies at the bottom of my garden. You are also content to say that you have a hedgehog that talks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 You are also content to say that you have a hedgehog that talks. Indeed I am, in the sure and certain knowledge that no one will believe me. What I don't do is to threaten the death penalty for those non-believers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 And before you say it, Aizoon. I suspect you are a lapsed Catholic anyway. That hedgehog thing has a distinct "guardian angel" feel to it. Sorry, missed this one first time round Afraid not, Red. Brought up C of E by parents whom I later found to be atheist/agnostic lapsed Marxists. They felt I should have the opportunity to try religion, given the flak they got for being non-religious. It didn't take. I started asking difficult questions at about 10 years old. I guess Catholic teachers would have beaten it out of me or brought in the theological big guns. C of E teachers just shuffled and looked embarrassed. It gave me an interest in theology though and, oddly, my first wife was a theology graduate who was studying for a law degree. So I do know what you're talking about. BTW Horace is thrilled to be thought of as a Guardian Angel. I just wish he wouldn't try to fly... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Hitler Posted May 18, 2014 Report Share Posted May 18, 2014 No. What then is your explanation for the multiple outrages regularly carried out throughout the world whose only common factor is adherence to Islam? Coincidence perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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