The Gasbuster Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 Does he really want to leave NATO? I did a quick google but couldn't find an exact quote. Wouldn't surprise me. He would have us join the Warsaw Pact, if it still existed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted August 13, 2015 Report Share Posted August 13, 2015 I don't know where to begin with your reply. Tragic. In every sense of the word. Expect you'd probably be a hero on the Celtic forum; insulting British war veterans whilst defending the IRA, all in one paragraph. I think you'll find I grouped them all in the same category. At no point did I say the IRA were good or support their actions in anyway. I just fail to see the difference between two men, both with bombs and both killing innocent citizens knowingly. I'm condemning both groups if anything. Why is it okay when it is British soldiers doing it but not Irish? You answer that and I'll apologise. Unbelievable Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Robbo Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Do you speak out against British Airmen who bombed German cities, knowing full well that they were killing thousands of innocent citizens? Or the British soldiers who killed thousands of innocent people in Iraq and Afghanistan? There is no difference really. The IRA had an enemy and they bombed cities killing innocents. We had an enemy and we bombed their cities killing innocents. People do horrible things in war, but you can't condemn one side without condemning the other. Pretty big difference WTTJ. British forces in WWII wore uniforms, didn't hide among non-combatants and respected the Geneva Convention regarding captured adversaries. The British armed forces were not sneaking into pubs in Belfast and Derry the 1970s, 80s and 90s in jeans and t-shirts and planting bombs to kill the regulars on the basis that most of them were probably Irish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Pretty big difference WTTJ. British forces in WWII wore uniforms, didn't hide among non-combatants and respected the Geneva Convention regarding captured adversaries. The British armed forces were not sneaking into pubs in Belfast and Derry the 1970s, 80s and 90s in jeans and t-shirts and planting bombs to kill the regulars on the basis that most of them were probably Irish. Exactly, claiming that they were at war and that their targets were legitimate and their victims were victims of war and then bleating about murder every time some of their 'soldiers' were killed, big difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stoke_Gifford_Red Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Welcome To The Jungle Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 I apologise if I caused anyone any offence, but in my opinion there is no difference between two people who knowingly kill citizens on a mass level, no matter if they are in uniform or not. Anyone, not posting anymore about it as this is a massive tangent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Calculus Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 I apologise if I caused anyone any offence, but in my opinion there is no difference between two people who knowingly kill citizens on a mass level, no matter if they are in uniform or not. Anyone, not posting anymore about it as this is a massive tangent. I do get the point you're trying to make on this WTTJ, but I think the argument (at least how you presented it) is flawed. If you take the IRA, as you did, as an example, they engaged in a stated campaign with an aim of striking 'terror' into the civilian population. As a result they purposefully bombed shopping centres and pubs, with the express intention of murdering civilians. If you compare that to the bombing of Dresden, which is probably the most significant civilian loss of life that British serviceman have ever been directly involved in, it was within the context of a war that had already been going on across the globe for 5 years, had seen extensive bombing of civilian areas of the UK and tens of thousands dead on the battlefields. While with the benefit of hindsight Dresden looks like a terrible act of mass murder, there is no way that the airmen involved at the time could possibly have been expected to see it in those terms, even aside from the fact that Dresden is still considered by many to have been a legitimate military target anyway I do agree that history is generally written from the view of the victors which tends to excuse the acts of one side while condemning the others, but the way in which the IRA conducted it's campaign both in Ireland and on the mainland doesn't really bear comparison to orders carried out in the midst of a massive global conflict, even if the loss of life in the second instance was thousands of times more Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 https://www.politicshome.com/party-politics/articles/news/yvette-cooper-speech-manchester Yvette Cooper speech transcript. Well worth a read. Thanks for that, Kid. Didn't see it yesterday so was good to see what was said She's the one I warm to the least of the 3 (Corbyn excluded, before anyone asks!), but that was a good read Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cotham Brow Red Posted August 14, 2015 Report Share Posted August 14, 2015 Cornyn would be great for Cameron but possibly bad for Sturgeon whose lefty 'keep the Torys out' mentality of everyday jockland may backfire if the old Scottish National Socialists dissapoint the masses north of Hadrians wall. Labour could win back up there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SARJ Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I think you'll find I grouped them all in the same category. At no point did I say the IRA were good or support their actions in anyway. I just fail to see the difference between two men, both with bombs and both killing innocent citizens knowingly. I'm condemning both groups if anything. Why is it okay when it is British soldiers doing it but not Irish? You answer that and I'll apologise. Never asked you to apologise for anything. Just couldn't believe what I read. I'd provide you with a response, but usually arguing with the more hippie minded left-leaning individuals never works out as they think everyone is wrong apart from themselves. Red Robbo summed up the IRA and Dresden bombings perfectly. With family who served in both Northern Ireland and in the RAF, I strongly suggest you do research in the future before posting generic comments about how British airmen are the same as Nazi Luftwaffe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I noticed the right wing media have already started with the Corbyn scare stories. Poor guy, him and his family will get torn to shreds if he wins the leadership race. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CyderInACan Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Great story earlier that Mandelson was trying to get Liz, Andy & Yvette to all quit to render the election invalid, without him realising that it would merely leave Corbyn as the winner by default! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
'Orns Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Great story earlier that Mandelson was trying to get Liz, Andy & Yvette to all quit to render the election invalid, without him realising that it would merely leave Corbyn as the winner by default! Read that earlier, now I'm not as educated as Mandelson, but if there's 1 horse in a 1 horse race I'm gonna have a few quid....another embarrassment for the party Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I noticed the right wing media have already started with the Corbyn scare stories. Poor guy, him and his family will get torn to shreds if he wins the leadership race. Awww bless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Read that earlier, now I'm not as educated as Mandelson, but if there's 1 horse in a 1 horse race I'm gonna have a few quid....another embarrassment for the party Well they are the Bristol Rovers of politics, what do you expect?. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasbuster Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 I noticed the right wing media have already started with the Corbyn scare stories. Poor guy, him and his family will get torn to shreds if he wins the leadership race. Give it a rest. The left wing media are full of shit as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Aizoon Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Give it a rest. The left wing media are full of shit as well. True. But there's rather more of the other. The Mail, the Sun, the Express, the Star, the Telegraph, the Times. As opposed to the Mirror and the Guardian. I guess you could describe the Independent and I as MOR. And, of course, it won't be the politics that they concentrate on. They'll find someone to complain that Corbyn kicked her puppy thirty years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 True. But there's rather more of the other. The Mail, the Sun, the Express, the Star, the Telegraph, the Times. As opposed to the Mirror and the Guardian. I guess you could describe the Independent and I as MOR. And, of course, it won't be the politics that they concentrate on. They'll find someone to complain that Corbyn kicked her puppy thirty years ago. The bastard. The point is Aiz and even you can see this, another 5 years after this 5 years and with Georgie Ozzy Osbourne in charge, whilst the labour party goes on it's 25 year cycle of eating itself, I will say it again the labour party is enabling all that the tories will impose and I have zero sympathy. All this shit about he'll strike a chord with the electorate and Yvette made a great speech, big deal she won't beat Corbyn and the electorate will not vote for Corbyn when the time comes and meanwhile the tory press are gearing themselves up to rip him a new one because he is an easy target, all because the Bristol Rovers of politics couldn't organise a piss up in a brewery. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Give it a rest. The left wing media are full of shit as well. Really? But on the scale of the right wing media? If you think its OK to attack peoples personal lives and family that doesn't really reflect well on you!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Gasbuster Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Really? But on the scale of the right wing media?If you think its OK to attack peoples personal lives and family that doesn't really reflect well on you!! Umm....where exactly did I state that such beaviour is acceptable ?! The fact that you are prepared to make such ungrounded accusations doesn't reflect well on you, pal !!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Umm....where exactly did I state that such beaviour is acceptable ?! The fact that you are prepared to make such ungrounded accusations doesn't reflect well on you, pal !!! Fair one. Answer the question before though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Really? But on the scale of the right wing media? If you think its OK to attack peoples personal lives and family that doesn't really reflect well on you!! Don't beat yourself up, strap your self in for 10 years of labour enabling tory governments. PS:- At least 10 years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Don't beat yourself up, strap your self in for 10 years of labour enabling tory governments. PS:- At least 10 years. Depends how bad the Tories mess everything up I guess. Its only a matter of time before a majority of Tory voters realise they have been duped. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 Depends how bad the Tories mess everything up I guess. Its only a matter of time before a majority of Tory voters realise they have been duped. You really are a dreamer, you thought Ed would scrape a win, no matter how much they **** up, the electorate will not accept Corbyn, Maggie proved that in spades in fact even Major proved that. Nice to have dreams though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipdawg Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 You really are a dreamer, you thought Ed would scrape a win, no matter how much they **** up, the electorate will not accept Corbyn, Maggie proved that in spades in fact even Major proved that. Nice to have dreams though. Corbyn won't make it through anywhere near the next election though. Polls will plummet, the party will turn on him, he'll resign. It will be unedifying, pathetically petty and hugely embarrassing (though it's already been all those things) but it'll all be done with at least 2 years before the next election Meanwhile all those people in middle England who voted for the Tories on the promise of cutting benefits to dole scroungers and immigrants are pissed off that they also cut their access to benefits. The moderate conservatives don't know whether they're outraged at the treatment of refugees at Calais or just outraged at the refugees at Calais. And I personally think their proposed cuts to public spending are going to create an unnecessary headache in a recovering economy. But there's a long way to go and so we'll see what happens. If the Tories increase their majority in 2020 it will be unprecedented. But then again, the absolute omni-shambles that is the Labour Party at the minute is largely unprecedented Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nibor Posted August 17, 2015 Report Share Posted August 17, 2015 At least Corbyn represents something different to the choices we've had before: identikit centrist politics where red and blue are indistinguishable or thinly veiled bigotry from UKIP. He'll probably lose badly unless there's a real shift in the working class and they wake up and stop buying the bullshit Nije is selling. But let's be honest, is there a single MP conceivably electable as Prime Minister in the entire Labour Party? Or any other party for that matter? As an aside it's interesting to note the parallels with Corbyn and what's happening over the water with Sanders. Will the electorate actually punish the career politicians that let the bankers off scot free? Funny that the yanks have rednecks and comedy Trump for our UKIP and comedy Nije too. It's spooky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Barrs Court Red Posted August 18, 2015 Author Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 At least Corbyn represents something different to the choices we've had before: identikit centrist politics where red and blue are indistinguishable or thinly veiled bigotry from UKIP. He'll probably lose badly unless there's a real shift in the working class and they wake up and stop buying the bullshit Nije is selling. But let's be honest, is there a single MP conceivably electable as Prime Minister in the entire Labour Party? Or any other party for that matter? As an aside it's interesting to note the parallels with Corbyn and what's happening over the water with Sanders. Will the electorate actually punish the career politicians that let the bankers off scot free? Funny that the yanks have rednecks and comedy Trump for our UKIP and comedy Nije too. It's spooky. They had one, but voted for his brother instead. As for the next Tory leader, anyone but Boris. Lib Dems, an utter irrelevance whoever leads them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BCFC Jimmer Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 You really are a dreamer, you thought Ed would scrape a win, no matter how much they **** up, the electorate will not accept Corbyn, Maggie proved that in spades in fact even Major proved that. Nice to have dreams though.Yes, I guess I do dream that we can still create a society in Britain that is fairer for everyone. Without doubt all these new Tory policies are ensuring the rich get richer whilst everyone else battles on. Sadly, things wouldn't change much even if Corbyn did become Prime Minister. The 'establishment' would soon put an end to any socialist policies im sure. If you actually look at Corbyns policies they are actually awesome and addess issues that I actually care about. Ridiculous rail fares are one of my gripes with this country and something he would sort out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Esmond Million's Bung Posted August 18, 2015 Report Share Posted August 18, 2015 Yes, I guess I do dream that we can still create a society in Britain that is fairer for everyone. Without doubt all these new Tory policies are ensuring the rich get richer whilst everyone else battles on. Sadly, things wouldn't change much even if Corbyn did become Prime Minister. The 'establishment' would soon put an end to any socialist policies im sure.If you actually look at Corbyns policies they are actually awesome and addess issues that I actually care about. Ridiculous rail fares are one of my gripes with this country and something he would sort out. Another dream my friend. 3-2-1 you're back in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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