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5 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Steve Bunce has said AJ had a cold in the week leading up to the fight. Had a stye in his eye as well which is a sign of being rundown. 

Joshua's Dad went over to have a go at Hearn in the ring after the fight as well, so clearly something was up.

I agree with others that AJ clearly has big issues with recovering from shots that hurt him. Very bad news if he gets hit flush by Wilder. 

Congratulations to Ruiz Jr, written off all over the shop due to his physic. Those who have watched some of his fights will know he was never going to be a push over like the Polish plummer journeymen. That said, fully expected Joshua to deal with him, points or late KO. Props to the guy for catching AJ when he was gassed.

For those who have boxed, you'll know shots to the temple are the worst, completely takes your equilibrium out of the game. AJ got caught and never fully recovered. Ref 100% correct to stop it when AJ wasn't responding well to the questions.

As for something being up with AJ, one has to agree. He didn't look himself and the post fight father-manager arguments alude to something. That said, you can't call a fight off for having a cold. GGG defeated Brook despite being in bed with a fever days before, Malignaggi won world titles with broken hands, Selby fought with broken ribs, Bruno competed with serious eye problems - the list goes on.

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7 minutes ago, Undy English said:

Congratulations to Ruiz Jr, written off all over the shop due to his physic. Those who have watched some of his fights will know he was never going to be a push over like the Polish plummer journeymen. That said, fully expected Joshua to deal with him, points or late KO. Props to the guy for catching AJ when he was gassed.

For those who have boxed, you'll know shots to the temple are the worst, completely takes your equilibrium out of the game. AJ got caught and never fully recovered. Ref 100% correct to stop it when AJ wasn't responding well to the questions.

As for something being up with AJ, one has to agree. He didn't look himself and the post fight father-manager arguments alude to something. That said, you can't call a fight off for having a cold. GGG defeated Brook despite being in bed with a fever days before, Malignaggi won world titles with broken hands, Selby fought with broken ribs, Bruno competed with serious eye problems - the list goes on.

The fight should have been stopped at the end of the third. Ref seemed to give AJ about 20 seconds to recover. Very generous. 

AJ just didn't seem to want it and for a supposed "soldier" and "warrior" (in his words) that's not a good sign. After the second knockdown in the 7th he turned his back on the ref and walked  back to his corner! That, along with spitting out his gumshield, showed you how much he wanted to continue. 

Grinning away in the ring afterwards as well...what was that all about? 

Needs to be 100% focussed for the rematch otherwise Ruiz Jnr will win again.  

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31 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

The fight should have been stopped at the end of the third. Ref seemed to give AJ about 20 seconds to recover. Very generous. 

AJ just didn't seem to want it and for a supposed "soldier" and "warrior" (in his words) that's not a good sign. After the second knockdown in the 7th he turned his back on the ref and walked  back to his corner! That, along with spitting out his gumshield, showed you how much he wanted to continue. 

Grinning away in the ring afterwards as well...what was that all about? 

Needs to be 100% focussed for the rematch otherwise Ruiz Jnr will win again.  

Spot on. All these Under Armour adverts boasting how much of a warrior he is, yet he seemingly gave up after the 2 knock downs in round 7 (as you say, turns his back, gum shield out, arms on ropes, half hearted responses to the ref).

Really needs to up his game and mental attitude if he's to be victorious in the rematch.

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1 hour ago, Kid in the Riot said:

The fight should have been stopped at the end of the third. Ref seemed to give AJ about 20 seconds to recover. Very generous. 

AJ just didn't seem to want it and for a supposed "soldier" and "warrior" (in his words) that's not a good sign. After the second knockdown in the 7th he turned his back on the ref and walked  back to his corner! That, along with spitting out his gumshield, showed you how much he wanted to continue. 

Grinning away in the ring afterwards as well...what was that all about? 

Needs to be 100% focussed for the rematch otherwise Ruiz Jnr will win again.  

Agree with all of this. AJ is in a very dangerous position now, a bit like Price was after the first Thompson fight; if he loses to Ruiz Jnr again his boxing career at the top level is pretty much over. Price just assumed he had been unlucky and went into the rematch with exactly the same weaknesses and got sparked out again. Does Joshua have the ability and honesty to overcome his own glaring issues and the stylistic problems Ruiz Jnr poses? With his current set up I'm really not convinced.

Of course we saw Lennox overcome a similar massive shock by blowing away Rahman second time around but Joshua patently is nothing like the boxer Lewis was. AJ and his entire team need a massive dose of realism to have any chance of getting the belts back.

There's not really time between now and November to make the radical personnel changes required in the long term, but even if he does win the rematch, then going forward he clearly needs at least 9 months to a year with a new trainer before he considers a fight with Wilder or Fury. McCracken has taken him as far as he can imo, it was bizarre to see him abandon all the natural advantages he held in the fight in order to exchange with Ruiz Jnr. Even if McCracken was telling him to fight more astutely, Joshua clearly wasn't listening to him and the corner was confused and chaotic between virtually every round.

He also needs to get a better nutritionist and change his s+c coaches to have any chance of the sort of career we had hoped he would have, because his physique is hampering rather than helping him atm.

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Before the fight when buffer was doing the intros, AJ was leaning back against the corner ropes and looked as though he was having the back of his head massaged. 

Not something I have noticed before in boxing, let alone specifically with AJ (although I could be wrong!).

Is this normal? Does it happen and  have just not noticed before? (Thought it looked strange at the time, not just because he took a beating!)

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3 hours ago, screech said:

 

Good interview from Dave Allen about the Joshua fight.

Very difficult to argue with any of that, absolutley bang on in the criticism of AJ's team.

Is it just me though or is Dave starting to sound a bit slurry? Worrying if so, he has had a few major hidings. He's the definition of too durable for his own good.

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1 hour ago, TomF said:

In a way it surely is down to Ruiz but wouldn’t be surprised if it’s Wembley 

No, it's contractually over here. Ruiz Jnr's share of the pot will have rocketed though.

Bit cold at Wembley at that time of year Tom! Surely it'll be at the Millenium Stadium, unless they pare it right back to the O2 to try and help Joshua get his confidence back.

edit- I'm wrong sorry, it was the deal they offered Ortiz that contractually stipulated the UK for any rematch. Surely they'll have it here though, it'd be crazy and very risky not to.

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11 hours ago, Stortz said:

No, it's contractually over here. Ruiz Jnr's share of the pot will have rocketed though.

Bit cold at Wembley at that time of year Tom! Surely it'll be at the Millenium Stadium, unless they pare it right back to the O2 to try and help Joshua get his confidence back.

edit- I'm wrong sorry, it was the deal they offered Ortiz that contractually stipulated the UK for any rematch. Surely they'll have it here though, it'd be crazy and very risky not to.

Not sure he would want to go to Mexico!

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On 03/06/2019 at 20:51, Stortz said:

Very difficult to argue with any of that, absolutley bang on in the criticism of AJ's team.

Is it just me though or is Dave starting to sound a bit slurry? Worrying if so, he has had a few major hidings. He's the definition of too durable for his own good.

Really like Dave Allen, just say's it how it is. Probably lost to a juiced up Yoka (who he says is the hardest puncher he's faced)

He does sound that way, but he split his tongue in the Ortiz fight so that's the reasoning behind it I believe.  

 

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13 hours ago, Stortz said:

No, it's contractually over here. Ruiz Jnr's share of the pot will have rocketed though.

Bit cold at Wembley at that time of year Tom! Surely it'll be at the Millenium Stadium, unless they pare it right back to the O2 to try and help Joshua get his confidence back.

edit- I'm wrong sorry, it was the deal they offered Ortiz that contractually stipulated the UK for any rematch. Surely they'll have it here though, it'd be crazy and very risky not to.

Bunce was not convinced it'll be in the UK. Staples Center, LA or Vegas. 

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21 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Bunce was not convinced it'll be in the UK. Staples Center, LA or Vegas. 

I would be advising AJ to turn that down, go away for 12 months, rebuild and come back rather than going straight into a rematch in the states. Can only see him losing again 5 months down the line in the States.

The trouble is now Al Haymon has all the belts and is calling the shots. Hearn is shitting himself. I'm not convinced he's thinking of what's right for Joshua.

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4 minutes ago, Stortz said:

I would be advising AJ to turn that down, go away for 12 months, rebuild and come back rather than going straight into a rematch in the states. Can only see him losing again 5 months down the line in the States.

The trouble is now Al Haymon has all the belts and is calling the shots. Hearn is shitting himself. I'm not convinced he's thinking of what's right for Joshua.

He was being frozen out by al haymon and bob arum when he had 3 belts. Its a long way back with no belts. He has to take the rematch IMO

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39 minutes ago, Stortz said:

I would be advising AJ to turn that down, go away for 12 months, rebuild and come back rather than going straight into a rematch in the states. Can only see him losing again 5 months down the line in the States.

The trouble is now Al Haymon has all the belts and is calling the shots. Hearn is shitting himself. I'm not convinced he's thinking of what's right for Joshua.

I'm intrigued by Barry Hearn's comments (BBC): "The only doubt I would say is that boxing is a strange business and you never know what happens in terms of we have an agreement in place, but sometimes we have to make sure that agreement is honoured."

So what are Haymon's options? Could Ruiz be paid off to vacate and therefore ipen up the division?

Is there any other way that Ruiz does not fulfil his contractual obligation?

Edited by mozo
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34 minutes ago, Riaz said:

He was being frozen out by al haymon and bob arum when he had 3 belts. Its a long way back with no belts. He has to take the rematch IMO

I see what you're saying, but if he loses again he's totally finished- and he's going to go into a rematch with exactly the same problems as it stands.

4 minutes ago, mozo said:

I'm intrigued by Barry Hearn's comments (BBC): "The only doubt I would say is that boxing is a strange business and you never know what happens in terms of we have an agreement in place, but sometimes we have to make sure that agreement is honoured."

So what are Haymon's options? Could Ruiz be paid off to vacate and therefore ipen up the division?

Is there any other way that Ruiz does not fulfil his contractual obligation?

Who knows what murky politicking could take place. You'd think Ruiz Jnr would get his arse sued off if he dumped the rematch though, I imagine Matchroom employ excellent lawyers.

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51 minutes ago, Stortz said:

I see what you're saying, but if he loses again he's totally finished- and he's going to go into a rematch with exactly the same problems as it stands.

To me, there was something off with AJ. I give him a good chance when he's back to his best.

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53 minutes ago, Stortz said:

I see what you're saying, but if he loses again he's totally finished- and he's going to go into a rematch with exactly the same problems as it stands.

Who knows what murky politicking could take place. You'd think Ruiz Jnr would get his arse sued off if he dumped the rematch though, I imagine Matchroom employ excellent lawyers.

On your 1st point, let's not foget that AJ, for all his pointless pawing in rounds one and two, did land a big punch and put Ruiz down in the third. Had it not been for a split second of carelessness, he conceivably would have gone on to get the stoppage. Fine margins.

So AJ knows that next time he has to stay switched on and to hammer his jab with intensity. He just needs to remind himself of fundamentals to dispose of Ruiz jr. 

I think he wins a rematch without too much drama. Beyond that though,  I totally agree that he is missing some things in his skillset and would really benefit from mentorship from Lennox Lewis (who I reckon would be up for that).

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44 minutes ago, mozo said:

On your 1st point, let's not foget that AJ, for all his pointless pawing in rounds one and two, did land a big punch and put Ruiz down in the third. Had it not been for a split second of carelessness, he conceivably would have gone on to get the stoppage. Fine margins.

So AJ knows that next time he has to stay switched on and to hammer his jab with intensity. He just needs to remind himself of fundamentals to dispose of Ruiz jr. 

I think he wins a rematch without too much drama. Beyond that though,  I totally agree that he is missing some things in his skillset and would really benefit from mentorship from Lennox Lewis (who I reckon would be up for that).

He did put Ruiz Jnr down, but he got straight back up and beat AJ up for the rest of the fight. Joshua simply can't fight inside, making Ruiz Jnr kryptonite to him.

With regard to his jab, Joshua didn't have one on Saturday.

I read the other day that only 3 deposed world champions have ever won immediate rematches in the history of boxing (Sugar Ray Robinson v Gene Fulmer, Lewis v Rahman and another I can't remember!). I'm really not convinced AJ can buck the trend after the manner of his defeat.

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1 hour ago, Stortz said:

He did put Ruiz Jnr down, but he got straight back up and beat AJ up for the rest of the fight. Joshua simply can't fight inside, making Ruiz Jnr kryptonite to him.

With regard to his jab, Joshua didn't have one on Saturday.

I read the other day that only 3 deposed world champions have ever won immediate rematches in the history of boxing (Sugar Ray Robinson v Gene Fulmer, Lewis v Rahman and another I can't remember!). I'm really not convinced AJ can buck the trend after the manner of his defeat.

That's really interesting. I agree re his inside fighting, and he must improve on that front (although leopards rarely change their spots eg imagine how much better Khan's career been had he learned how to slip and stifle defensively a la Floyd?!).

Let's continue this conversation if/when the rematch comes along. There will be a lot of debate about that one.

 

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3 hours ago, mozo said:

That's really interesting. I agree re his inside fighting, and he must improve on that front (although leopards rarely change their spots eg imagine how much better Khan's career been had he learned how to slip and stifle defensively a la Floyd?!).

Let's continue this conversation if/when the rematch comes along. There will be a lot of debate about that one.

 

Don't get me wrong, I really hope that AJ can turn it around and we can look back on the loss as a wake up call and a new start for him- the same as Rahman was for Lewis- but history is certainly against him.

5 hours ago, Stortz said:

I read the other day that only 3 deposed world champions have ever won immediate rematches in the history of boxing (Sugar Ray Robinson v Gene Fulmer, Lewis v Rahman and another I can't remember!). I'm really not convinced AJ can buck the trend after the manner of his defeat.

It was apparently Floyd Patterson's revenge v Ingemar Johansson back in June 1960.

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40 minutes ago, Stortz said:

Don't get me wrong, I really hope that AJ can turn it around and we can look back on the loss as a wake up call and a new start for him- the same as Rahman was for Lewis- but history is certainly against him.

It was apparently Floyd Patterson's revenge v Ingemar Johansson back in June 1960.

Funnily enough, I'm not an AJ disciple, and if anything more enamoured with Fury, especially now that he's cleaned his act up.

But being as objective as I can, I think an on song Joshua beats an up for it Ruiz jr.

Do you think Ruiz Jr beat Whyte?

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30 minutes ago, mozo said:

Funnily enough, I'm not an AJ disciple, and if anything more enamoured with Fury, especially now that he's cleaned his act up.

But being as objective as I can, I think an on song Joshua beats an up for it Ruiz jr.

Do you think Ruiz Jr beat Whyte?

You'd think Joshua using his natural attributes would be far too strong for him, but i just don't understand what went so wrong on Saturday- and I don't know whether it can all be turned around in 5 months. The AJ who beat Klitschko would eat Ruiz Jnr for breakfast but it's a long way back from Saturday imo.

I would back Whyte, I reckon he would foul Ruiz Jnr to bits haha. He has a nastier streak than AJ and is a better counter and body puncher too.

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25 minutes ago, Stortz said:

You'd think Joshua using his natural attributes would be far too strong for him, but i just don't understand what went so wrong on Saturday- and I don't know whether it can all be turned around in 5 months. The AJ who beat Klitschko would eat Ruiz Jnr for breakfast but it's a long way back from Saturday imo.

I would back Whyte, I reckon he would foul Ruiz Jnr to bits haha. He has a nastier streak than AJ and is a better counter and body puncher too.

There's plenty of body to aim for for Whyte! 

Hmmm...5 months for AJ to regain his mojo... as I said, the reach and power are already there. Just use the buggers this time! But if it's a serious headspace problem, and not just an offnight, then who knows how he'll get on.

Re AJ, warning signs were there against Parker and Takam. He didn't really rise to those challenges as we expected. I sometimes wonder if instinctive violence is his comfort zone and he's best off not trying to think his way through fights. That's not to say he isn't smart because clearly he is relatively intelligent and articulate, but some fighters aren't great at the duality of battle mode and chess player mode, like Fury or Lennox arguably can/could. Maybe he's better keeping it simple; use your reach, hammer the jab, and bash em with the big right when it feel right.

Sorry, brainspew over...

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3 hours ago, TomF said:

Full fight is on YouTube now - 

Now I didn’t see all of the build up and ring walk but as someone who’s trained people (admittedly on software!)  for the past 15 years and got used to reading people’s body language from the off AJ don’t look right. If I see body language like that I usually stop the session and call a fag break/tea break. Something ain’t right from the off - 41 mins in and you see AJ snr and EH having an off. I don’t care what they say that nothing was wrong - something 100% was up.  Did he come in too heavy?  Cold? Wrong strategy from RMcC? 

Looking into something that isn’t there I’m afraid,If you have little head movement then you will get clipped and AJ goes to pot the minute he’s hit hard 

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15 hours ago, joe jordans teeth said:

Looking into something that isn’t there I’m afraid,If you have little head movement then you will get clipped and AJ goes to pot the minute he’s hit hard 

I think it's a fair comment from @TomF tbh mate. AJ has always had the same physical limitations, but before his mindset and confidence carried him through and allowed him to make the most of his attributes and athleticism.

He's clearly nothing like right mentally before the bell in this one compared to every other time he has fought, and that will obviously impact upon his ability to fight.

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