Jump to content
IGNORED

Steve Cotterill


DavidNoble

Recommended Posts

9 hours ago, spudski said:

Why people think he was hard done by, and deserved more here makes no sense...especially when you see the up turn in results since he left.

 

That does downplay the significance of having last year's player of the season in this division and a player coveted by none less than Marseille at your disposal though  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The first problem with 3-5-2 is that you can end up with a squad that can't play anything but 3-5-2.

Cotterill looked at the squad he had when he arrived at City and he decided, rightly, that 3-5-2 suited the players he had. He then added to it and it made sense to add players who worked well in that system. Summer 2015 arrived and I'm sure he intended to continue in that vein. He sold one of the few natural full-backs left at the club and tried to recruit yet another centre-half (regardless of quality, the club already had 5 senior centre-halves on the books). As we know, his recruitment went wrong and he was left with a league one quality squad that was only equipped to play 3-5-2 and nothing else.

The second problem with 3-5-2, at least the way City deployed it, is that it's an attacking, possession-based tactic that relies on being able to outplay the opposition tactically. Against league one opposition City regularly had 60%+ possession and could dictate how the game went. When they tried to do that at a higher level they were repeatedly caught on the break by opposing players who were able to take the ball off them. You can't play that way with inferior players and expect to succeed.

So Cotterill, who was initially pragmatic and chose the best formation for the squad, ended up locked into a position where he could only use a tactic that wasn't suitable for the situation

At this point it would be quite right to point out that changing the formation was possible because John Pemberton and Lee Johnson did it. They had to recruit to do so effectively but it clearly wasn't impossible. Therefore it is fair to say that Cotterill wasn't entirely bound by circumstances and was undone by his own stubbornness. I suspect he felt that the way the team played in 14/15 was too good to give up on easily and that one day the players would adapt to the higher level and things would suddenly click into place. This is obviously fanciful and contributed to his demise but it is, I think, understandable.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

10 hours ago, CodeRed said:

 

 

Roger

 

Cheap shot number 2.

 

 

one thing Cotts has done since his sacking is that he has stayed classy and not slagged off the club or owner - in fact those who have spoken to him say he wishes us nothing but good.

 

Shame you couldn't follow his example and resist all the ignorant cheap shots. Move on - he has.

Nonsense.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

11 hours ago, slartibartfast said:

Some Derby guy came on and promptly scored an OG ?

Andy Comyn?

11 hours ago, NickJ said:

The serially inept Steve McClaren

 

Now that made I laugh - never heard it in quite those words before, but it does sum the man up perfectly

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, JoeAman08 said:

You can criticise the man and appreciate him at the same time. It's the nature of being a manager. I loved every bit of last year. I hated every bit of this year. It doesn't take away last years achievements but keeping him would've most likely meant playing for the same things next year. All clubs want to progress and we weren't this year under SC. Overall he was a success for the club but that doesn't mean everyone has to have a positive opinion about him. His first 25 games in the championship with us were almost as bad as it can get. He was stubborn with game policy and ungracious in losing. That's football though. Some amazing highs and some dreadful lows. Usually there is a progression one way or the other. We just had our highs and were immediately smacked in the face with lows. SC I'll remember fondly for what he's done but he's only got himself to blame for being gone and you can express that opinion without disliking his whole managerial career here. 

Absolutely but the difference is that the one's displaying the RobboRedesque obsession are the one's that never wanted him and even found it difficult to praise him last season. As you rightly say that is the nature of football management but they will be the one's when LJ get's the sack, will defend him to the hilt whatever his record, just like some did over SOD, it is the overwhelming nature of wanting to be able to say I was right all along, albeit 2 years and 2 trophies later or 4 years later in other cases or even i'm sure he would have turned it around

Me I was underwhelmed by his appointment but was won over by his achievements, the obvious camaraderie that he engendered in the dressing room, something the previous 4/5 managers had failed to do spectacularly, the improvement and confidence he instilled into players that had failed under so called super coach SOD and the signings that he made that made the squad what it was.

Was he correctly sacked?, absolutely no doubt that he was correctly sacked, something had become distinctly rancid about his relationship with the owner and in fact he should have been sacked earlier, our championship survival was in the balance and with a new ground about to be fully unveiled next season relegation was unthinkable, hopefully MA is now the man that is more at home to do nasty stuff in football that SL obviously wasn't so keen on doing.

What about LJ?, again personally underwhelmed when he got the job but I have been impressed with his ballsy selections and substitutions and if last Saturday was a glimpse into the future then I like it and he speaks well and with humour, the only thing for me was the after the heavy and awful defeat at Hull, people were more or less saying that 'we were never going to get a result at Hull' well that appeared to be the attitude of the players as well, but the facts are different looking at the results before Hull played us and since Hull are a beatable team and LJ knew that it was a shocking performance, he looked one angry man to me and i'm glad he was angry, but i'm willing to say a bad day at the office. in the Rotherham game at least we didn't shrink from the physical challenge and Sheff Weds proved we can compete with anybody in this league if we believe and if we take our chances.

As for SC, thanks for the memories and I agree with Spudski Sheff Utd for me would probably be a good fit, wherever he goes best of luck SC.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

14 hours ago, NickJ said:

....the serially inept Steve McClaren....

Obviously Steve McClaren has struggled at clubs in this country but he did win the league in the Netherlands with an unfashionable club (FC Twente) and so took them into the Champions League - no mean feat in a division containing Ajax, PSV, Feyenoord...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, spudski said:

To be fair to you Nick...I've had a look through that link...and it has just as many people saying the same things as on this forum...it goes from one extreme to another.

One person says he's a legend...others say Burnley were better off without him...he ground out results...known as the crucifier because of that...fans saying he's found his level. Your link shows exactly the same as this forum...a mixed bag. SC is marmite.

So pulling out one post doesn't show how that forum feels...it's completely mixed.

You should think of going into 'Spin' for a politician Nick...think you maybe good at that ;-)

I really don't see what your point is...showing me what forum members on a Burnley forum isn't going to change my mind. It has in fact underlined everything I believe...that SC is marmite...loved by some, loathed by others.

We can agree to disagree.

I think if we do not agree, then by definition we disagree, but there is no spin on my part, in fact I'd say you are the Peter Mandleson of OTIB.

You said every Burnley fan you know hate SC, I have shown that it is far from the case Burnley fans hate him - even a lot of the ones that didn't like the style of football, or his interviews, were grateful for the results he achieved.

You also said he is not up to managing in the Championship, but facts at Burnley over 3 years show that also not to be correct, particularly when they had little money, SC had to constantly bring in from sales more than he was able to spend, as recognized by the Burnley fans, even the ones that didn't like some of his characteristics.

 

What is also apparent, skimming through the Burnley and Forest forums, is that SC changed big time, in relation to style of play.

At those teams, the fans recognize he got the job done but at the expense of football. Here, he wanted a slick, passing entertaining team, which maybe was part of his downfall, but also suggests a willingness to change, where warranted.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

9 minutes ago, NickJ said:

I think if we do not agree, then by definition we disagree, but there is no spin on my part, in fact I'd say you are the Peter Mandleson of OTIB. I disagree ;-)

You said every Burnley fan you know hate SC, I have shown that it is far from the case Burnley fans hate him - even a lot of the ones that didn't like the style of football, or his interviews, were grateful for the results he achieved.

You also said he is not up to managing in the Championship, but facts at Burnley over 3 years show that also not to be correct, particularly when they had little money, SC had to constantly bring in from sales more than he was able to spend, as recognized by the Burnley fans, even the ones that didn't like some of his characteristics.

 

What is also apparent, skimming through the Burnley and Forest forums, is that SC changed big time, in relation to style of play.

At those teams, the fans recognize he got the job done but at the expense of football. Here, he wanted a slick, passing entertaining team, which maybe was part of his downfall, but also suggests a willingness to change, where warranted.

As for every Burnley fan I know...they do hate SC. I don't know anyone on that forum. And as I pointed out to you...the posts on that forum are mixed...like on here. He's marmite.

As for him being a manager in the Championship...I pointed out that his record shows he loses more games than he wins. And has less than a 34 % win rate.

In the lower leagues it is much higher...hence my suggestion he could do well at Sheffield Utd.

That is totally different to what you are implying...nice effort at spin again.

As for your last sentence...Where did he change this season? He was so stubborn...if there was ever a willingness needed to change, then it was this season and highly warranted. Perhaps he'd still be here if he did.

So he kept teams up at the expense of football...then tried to play football at the expense of results.

Seems he needs to find a happy medium and change at the right times.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, NickJ said:

I think if we do not agree, then by definition we disagree, but there is no spin on my part, in fact I'd say you are the Peter Mandleson of OTIB.

You said every Burnley fan you know hate SC, I have shown that it is far from the case Burnley fans hate him - even a lot of the ones that didn't like the style of football, or his interviews, were grateful for the results he achieved.

You also said he is not up to managing in the Championship, but facts at Burnley over 3 years show that also not to be correct, particularly when they had little money, SC had to constantly bring in from sales more than he was able to spend, as recognized by the Burnley fans, even the ones that didn't like some of his characteristics.

 

What is also apparent, skimming through the Burnley and Forest forums, is that SC changed big time, in relation to style of play.

At those teams, the fans recognize he got the job done but at the expense of football. Here, he wanted a slick, passing entertaining team, which maybe was part of his downfall, but also suggests a willingness to change, where warranted.

On the flip side of that, alot of Forest fans wanted him gone for his style of play... Its where 'Cotterball' originated and was well documented on here about Forest fans opinions when he was appointed here.

Also there was no evidence of this entertaining slick passing game in the final 14 games or so or after Cardiff away... it was appalling and he was justifiably sacked

Link to comment
Share on other sites

37 minutes ago, Dark Wood Covert said:

On the flip side of that, alot of Forest fans wanted him gone for his style of play... Its where 'Cotterball' originated and was well documented on here about Forest fans opinions when he was appointed here.

Also there was no evidence of this entertaining slick passing game in the final 14 games or so or after Cardiff away... it was appalling and he was justifiably sacked

Managers and coaches have struggled to impress the locals there for, ooh, about 23 years now. Can't think why...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11/04/2016 at 23:15, CodeRed said:

 

 

Roger

 

Cheap shot number 2.

 

 

one thing Cotts has done since his sacking is that he has stayed classy and not slagged off the club or owner - in fact those who have spoken to him say he wishes us nothing but good.

 

Shame you couldn't follow his example and resist all the ignorant cheap shots. Move on - he has.

Cross my palm with silver...............

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11 April 2016 at 03:15, BS4 on Tour... said:

Well Dean Holdsworth's consortium bought Bolton for £1 then immediately handed over £7.5m as working capital for the rest of this season and then provided an extra £10m as proof of future funding so they may have more than you think now...

Out of interest what exactly has happened to their debt mountain of around £175 million? Has it partially or largely written off by the previous owners?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

55 minutes ago, havanatopia said:

Out of interest what exactly has happened to their debt mountain of around £175 million? Has it partially or largely written off by the previous owners?

I think the previous owner was happy to write it off if they found a buyer, might be wrong

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If SC is a Championship quality manager then no doubt his next role will be at a Championship club.

A lot of the ancedotal evidence seems to suggest he'll end up at a L1 club though.

Personally, I think it is very unlikely a Championship board would go for him. You can never say never - as Dave Hockaday to Leeds proved - as there are some crazy owners about but I very much doubt anyone at this level would take a risk on him as manager.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

34 minutes ago, Kid in the Riot said:

If SC is a Championship quality manager then no doubt his next role will be at a Championship club.

A lot of the ancedotal evidence seems to suggest he'll end up at a L1 club though.

Personally, I think it is very unlikely a Championship board would go for him. You can never say never - as Dave Hockaday to Leeds proved - as there are some crazy owners about but I very much doubt anyone at this level would take a risk on him as manager.

But other clubs would take a risk with a league 1 manager with an average league 1 record?, can't think of anyone off the top of my head ATM.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 11 April 2016 at 23:24, spudski said:

Really? You know everyone he's spoken to?

If you are a City fan I can guarantee he'll be lovely, charming and make you feel like the best fan in the world...and he will appreciate you taking the time to speak to him and be very open and pleasant.

Go and speak to a few Agents and scouts and coach's and you might get a broader more balanced view.

Re your last sentence, I'm sure the same applies to a lot of players and managers.

Me, as an average City supporting football fan, I think what he gave us last season was fantastic, I'm more than happy to leave it there and don't feel the need to slag him off like others.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

12 minutes ago, Portland Bill said:

Re your last sentence, I'm sure the same applies to a lot of players and managers.

Me, as an average City supporting football fan, I think what he gave us last season was fantastic, I'm more than happy to leave it there and don't feel the need to slag him off like others.

Indeed it does PB...However haven't slagged him off and neither have others.

Funnily I remember talking to a certain ex manager of ours that's considered a bit of a legend by some. It was in amongst a group of five people at Cheltenham cricket festival. Football was being spoken about, and for some reason he started slagging the Club off, the board and it's fans. When someone else said they were good friends and played golf with one of our ex players and another ex manager, he changed his tone completely and made like it was a joke.

 

People just seem to get highly offended when someone dares question SC's qualities as a Championship manager.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

21 minutes ago, Dark Wood Covert said:

Maybe its more to do with LJs potential and credentials rather than his average L1 record... certainly impressed so far IMO

Ah right, potential probably, credentials? what credentials?.

Yes he is doing OK but no more than what his old man did in his first league 1 season with us, Millen did in his first championship season with us, DMC did in his first championship season with us and SC did in his first league season with us and 2 gained promotion but were both eventually sacked and the other 2 were just sacked, it's what they do in the 2nd season that he will be judged on, but it's a good start but not that unusual by our standards.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, City169 said:

I think the previous owner was happy to write it off if they found a buyer, might be wrong

Yep, but I think gets some kind of 'dividend' each year for the next few years....something like £3m per year.  Not sure where I read it, and whether that was part of the final deal.

Whatever it was, they no longer have £170m debt.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

His credentials of what he did at Oldham and Barnsley... Harry (the poster) posted a very good article a while back when LJ was appointed, notably off field as well as on field. How you can compare L1 managers to Championship is ridiculous in terms of level of competition.

Just for the record SC's half season was appalling upto the last 12 games or so plus Johnson Sr lost 9/10 games from his first 12 so not quite the same

Edit:- that was in response to EMB

Link to comment
Share on other sites

51 minutes ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

But other clubs would take a risk with a league 1 manager with an average league 1 record?, can't think of anyone off the top of my head ATM.

Thought this thread was about SC? I mean you could just address the points I made in my post against SC instead of deflecting the debate to LJ?

But if you want to chat LJ then I would say this. If you wanted to go and appoint a young, upcoming, well-respected coach in the Eddie Home sort of mould then if you look at LJ's experience at such a young age along with the league position of Barnsley when he left then I think you'll find he's about as good as we could've hoped for in terms of meeting that criteria. I can only think of maybe Justin Edinburgh (though he has 10 years on LJ) as another promising young manager who was flying with Gills at the time.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

Thought this thread was about SC? I mean you could just address the points I made in my post against SC instead of deflecting the debate to LJ?

But if you want to chat LJ then I would say this. If you wanted to go and appoint a young, upcoming, well-respected coach in the Eddie Home sort of mould then if you look at LJ's experience at such a young age along with the league position of Barnsley when he left then I think you'll find he's about as good as we could've hoped for in terms of meeting that criteria. I can only think of maybe Justin Edinburgh (though he has 10 years on LJ) as another promising young manager who was flying with Gills at the time.

I agree his next job will probably be 1st division and I agree never say never about a championship club, but your post meandered into qualifications and owners taking risks and LJ is certainly a risk.

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

3 hours ago, Kid in the Riot said:

 If you wanted to go and appoint a young, upcoming, well-respected coach in the Eddie Home sort of mould then if you look at LJ's experience at such a young age along with the league position of Barnsley when he left then I think you'll find he's about as good as we could've hoped for in terms of meeting that criteria.

If attracting a manager previously sitting at 18th in League One - with one of the bigger teams in that division - is the best we can aspire to I seriously worry mate.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...