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1 hour ago, Just Red said:

Anyone who does research is going to read stuff intended to put fear into people about leaving the EU. It's all rubbish. We was a great country before the EU, we are a poor country whilst in the EU, we can be great again by leaving.

There may be a very short term hit but when the dust settles this country will be able to proper.

Anyone who does research is going to read facts. I can only apologise for the fact that those facts aren't what you want them to be but the EU vote will take place in the real world and not some fantasy utopia.  Our economy is dwarfed by the EU, the US and China.  We may be the sixth biggest economy in the world but those top three are so far ahead of us that they hold all the cards.  That is the reality.  We export 44% of our goods to the EU.  We need them far more than they need us.  They know it and our government knows it.  The fact that a few people who've had relatively minor jobs in the cabinet and Farage, who has never held any kind of government or diplomatic role think differently merely shows their naivety and determination to ignore reality.

A lot of the Leave campaigners remind me of the people who voted for Jeremy Corbyn - who could broadly be split into two groups.  Firstly there were the ones who took a principled stand to vote for a leader they felt best reflected their beliefs and were willing to accept the reality that the downside was he was a tougher sell to the mainstream electorate.  And then there were idealists who just pretended everyone else was wrong and Jeremy Corbyn would be popular with the electorate.  In the event, it turned out reality was right.  Corbyn started with the lowest popularity ratings of any Labour leader and had to fight uphill from there. Likewise here, you can vote to leave because you think the UK should have the right to self-determination and think the fact that our economy will suffer is a price worth paying.  But pretending everyone else is wrong and our economy won't suffer is simply ignoring reality.  If you're going to vote Leave, vote Leave.  But do so with your eyes open.  Don't simply pretend facts don't exist because you don't like them because all you are then doing is taking massive gambles with you future and the future of your children without bothering to find out the extent of the risks involved.  And that is an incredibly reckless thing to do. 

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12 minutes ago, Fiale said:

 

 

Neither we or the EU have trade deals with the US but we both still trade with them. 

 

We still have a large manufacturing base, and our science and Pharma industry is still huge (though Pharma has taken a huge hit due to new EU regulations that have reduced the amount the companies are putting into research and development of new drugs). Leaving would not be a leap of faith, we are not children, when the hell did Brits become such cowards that they cannot even perceive running their own country without the help of the Polish, Romanians, Greeks, Slovakians and Germans etc ? 

You don't seem to actually understand how the EU works.  Do you not think you ought to get that straight before deciding how to vote?

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15 minutes ago, Fiale said:

 

 

Neither we or the EU have trade deals with the US but we both still trade with them. 

 

We still have a large manufacturing base, and our science and Pharma industry is still huge (though Pharma has taken a huge hit due to new EU regulations that have reduced the amount the companies are putting into research and development of new drugs). Leaving would not be a leap of faith, we are not children, when the hell did Brits become such cowards that they cannot even perceive running their own country without the help of the Polish, Romanians, Greeks, Slovakians and Germans etc ? 

Er we do still govern our country.  There is this thing called the British parliament that we elect through a democracy who in turn set the laws for the land and control the economy. I agree that the EU does place some negative restrictions on what we can do but some of those rules are actually protecting our workers rights from the Tories at the moment!

You have just listed those countries to get some kind of nationalist reaction. None of them have anything to do with 'running' our country so you have just completely made that up haven't you?

So come on, can anyone tell me how leaving the EU will boost our economic fortunes and prospects for jobs?! (Probably the most important thing in our current situation) Im waiting...

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, Collis1 said:

Er we do still govern our country.  There is this thing called the British parliament that we elect through a democracy who in turn set the laws for the land and control the economy. I agree that the EU does place some negative restrictions on what we can do but some of those rules are actually protecting our workers rights from the Tories at the moment!

You have just listed those countries to get some kind of nationalist reaction. None of them have anything to do with 'running' our country so you have just completely made that up haven't you?

So come on, can anyone tell me how leaving the EU will boost our economic fortunes and prospects for jobs?! (Probably the most important thing in our current situation) Im waiting...

 

 

 

 

 

 

Embarrassingly this is what the Leave campaign has come down to.  I genuinely respect some of the reasons for leaving but the debate has turned into a load of people who cannot find any facts or evidence to back up the argument we'll be better off out of Europe so instead rubbish the evidence that does exist and make stuff up instead.

 

Genuinely embarrassing. This supposed to be a mature discussion of the future of our country, not some sort of playground argument where whoever lies the best wins. 

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36 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

You don't seem to actually understand how the EU works.  Do you not think you ought to get that straight before deciding how to vote?

 

35 minutes ago, Collis1 said:

Er we do still govern our country.  There is this thing called the British parliament that we elect through a democracy who in turn set the laws for the land and control the economy. I agree that the EU does place some negative restrictions on what we can do but some of those rules are actually protecting our workers rights from the Tories at the moment!

You have just listed those countries to get some kind of nationalist reaction. None of them have anything to do with 'running' our country so you have just completely made that up haven't you?

So come on, can anyone tell me how leaving the EU will boost our economic fortunes and prospects for jobs?! (Probably the most important thing in our current situation) Im waiting...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

So the head of states of EU countries do not get together and decide on the direction they would like to go, the commission made of civil servants of these countries do not make the policies and then those policies do not get decided upon by majority voting ? 

If the EU decides if we vote to stay, that for example a financial transaction tax should be implemented we as the UK with our voted independent democracy and can say no, not implement it and there are no repercussions ? 

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47 minutes ago, Fiale said:

 

 

So the head of states of EU countries do not get together and decide on the direction they would like to go, the commission made of civil servants of these countries do not make the policies and then those policies do not get decided upon by majority voting ? 

If the EU decides if we vote to stay, that for example a financial transaction tax should be implemented we as the UK with our voted independent democracy and can say no, not implement it and there are no repercussions ? 

Yes, but with the exception of possibly Greece all the EU countries are still governed independently. They have an influence but their involvement in the every day governing of the countries is minimal.

This is completely different to your original statement which is nonsense.

Lets cut to the chase here.  What is the main reason you want to leave the EU?

 

 

 

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37 minutes ago, Fiale said:

 

 

So the head of states of EU countries do not get together and decide on the direction they would like to go, the commission made of civil servants of these countries do not make the policies and then those policies do not get decided upon by majority voting ? 

If the EU decides if we vote to stay, that for example a financial transaction tax should be implemented we as the UK with our voted independent democracy and can say no, not implement it and there are no repercussions ? 

That is indeed what happens.  But that's not the same thing as what you said before.  The countries are run independently, only with shared discussion on certain policies.  But to reiterate again, I can understand someone preferring us being outside of that shared agreement and I do accept it places limits on democracy (even if I find it interesting that the example you use is the UK's preference for blocking a law that, if enacted,would put more money in the public purse and takes power away from large corporations).  However, even if you have a preference for being outside of the shared agreement, I don't think that's a plausible reason to pretend the downsides of that decision don't exist.  It is possible to believe that we're better off outside of the EU whilst accepting their will be significant economic disadvantages. It is unrealistic to pretend those significant economic disadvantages don't exist.

 

The reality is we will have to sign up to a trade agreement with the US that is largely dictated by the US's terms.  Because we need the deal more than we do.  And we'll have to wait until after the EU negotiations.

 

The reality is we will have to sign up to a trade agreement with the EU that is largely dictated by the EU's terms. Because we need the deal more than they do.  Almost certainly any continued free trade movement will have to include free movement of people.

 

The reality is, with every other country we deal with - particularly stronger economies such as China - we'll be trying to strike deals without the collective bargaining power that comes from within the EU.

 

The reality is that we have an import-based economy.  That is great as long as we have the cash to buy stuff because people want to sell to us but, if our economy falters, that becomes a weakness because we buy more than we produce and have limited means to raise capital as a result.

 

All of these are realities.  It's possible to believe it is right to vote to leave the EU in spite all of this but completely naive to pretend these factors are not scaremongering but simple stark reality. 

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14 hours ago, Scrumpylegs said:

Another issue that hasn't really been picked up yet is the status of the U.K Itself following a Brexit vote. This could really complicate any post Brexit negotiation and potentially deliver a 'double whammy' to the UK economy. The Scots are looking nailed on for a majority 'remain' vote. They would quite rightly see a Brexit vote as a fundamental change to the conditions on which they voted to stay in the UK. This would trigger another independence referendum - which the nationalists would win by a Country mile, thus leaving the remnants of the U.K. surrounded and isolated, not a strong position for trade deals!

In which case, England will have stop being a dirty word in some quarters.

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I can't believe your arguing that your fine with ever more regulations, laws, legislation being handed down to us based on majority voting that over time will just making Parliament like a bloated county council responsible for what ? In what area of policy is the EU not looking at ?

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1 hour ago, Collis1 said:

Yes, but with the exception of possibly Greece all the EU countries are still governed independently. They have an influence but their involvement in the every day governing of the countries is minimal.

This is completely different to your original statement which is nonsense.

Lets cut to the chase here.  What is the main reason you want to leave the EU?

Germany in WWI was described as a "Giant shackled to a corpse", meaning the Austro-Hungarian Empire. The corpse to which we are shackled is the EU, which is falling apart as we look. Better to leave the EU than to be caught up in its death-throes.

When it was a Federal Nine, I was a strong supporter of the EU, not least as a counter-balance to the USA. Well, that went pear-shaped when the EU signed up to TTIP.. Now we have a huge and unwieldy {however many it is today} conglomeration, which soon will have anti-democratic Wahabist-ruled Turkey and civil war-torn Ukraine. This is supposed to become an ever-closer-union? It is too big and too diverse to have a hope of being democratic and can only function as an empire dominated by Germany for its own interests

No, thanks. Let's get out now before the fertiliser hits the air-conditioning.

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On 23/04/2016 at 22:08, BS3_RED said:

This

 

He is just giving a soundbite to help his mate Dave who will be out of a job on the 24th June if the out camp win. The bottom line is it make no difference. The in camp will win simply due to the fact that the government backs it and as such there are no details being given on what would happen if we voted to leave.

 

If the government wanted out, we would have a whole host of info on how we would be better off.

That's a primary reason to at least consider an out vote. 

Why not a balanced view to enable the people to decide? All i am hearing is scaremongering to such an extent that it makes me suspicious of the true motivations. The leaflet they posted out was practically propaganda.

The sceptical me would say that an out vote wouldn't effect you or I but would leave some powerful and wealthy people somewhat less powerful and less wealthy.

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9 minutes ago, Gazred said:

The sceptical me would say that an out vote wouldn't effect you or I but would leave some powerful and wealthy people somewhat less powerful and less wealthy.

I don't believe this is a factor.  EU and UK law still work in favour of the rich whether we leave or not. Hence why inequality is increasing in the UK and across Europe.

Cameron went for the 'In' campaign because its the best chance he stands to keep his party together.  I doubt he actually cares much either way.

 

 

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1 minute ago, Collis1 said:

I don't believe this is a factor.  EU and UK law still work in favour of the rich whether we leave or not. Hence why inequality is increasing in the UK and across Europe.

 

 

Coming from the position of not really knowing a bloody thing with regards to the pros and cons, what do you think the main motivation to stay in actually is, and is it correct?

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20 minutes ago, Fiale said:

I can't believe your arguing that your fine with ever more regulations, laws, legislation being handed down to us based on majority voting that over time will just making Parliament like a bloated county council responsible for what ? In what area of policy is the EU not looking at ?

If you're talking to me, that's not what I'm arguing.  You seem to be ignoring the points I actually am arguing and I imagine that may be because you know full well you have no counter argument.

I'm arguing we'll be in a financially weak position if we leave for the reasons I've listed and that the Leave campaign has to do better than try to magic them away by pretending they don't exist.  Just as the Scottish independence campaign lost all of its credibility when it began to pretend it could carry on with the £ without the UK's consent without compromising its financial independence, the Leave campaign loses its credibility when it pretends we'll be given favourable trade deals as a priority by countries that have made clear they will not offer us favours and will give us no priority.

What you seem to be doing is making an excellent argument as to why the EU shouldn't exist.  You might be right but that option isn't on the ballot paper.  The EU will continue to exist, we'll have to sign up to its terms and conditions to do business with it and we cannot afford to not do business with it.  All the Leave campaginers are voting for in reality is carrying on with the same conditions on free trade and free movement as before with a loss of any influence we do have in how those conditions are drawn up.  This is the truth of it and the leaders of the Leave campaign know it, Hence why, whilst they have said how lovely a fantasy world would be where there was no EU and they have had a bit of a sob about the nasty bullies dealing with reality rather than utopian fantasy, nobody from the campaign has managed to produce a single scrap of evidence to dispute the fact that what they call scare-mongering is actually a simple statement of fact. 

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15 minutes ago, Gazred said:

That's a primary reason to at least consider an out vote. 

Why not a balanced view to enable the people to decide? All i am hearing is scaremongering to such an extent that it makes me suspicious of the true motivations. The leaflet they posted out was practically propaganda.

The sceptical me would say that an out vote wouldn't effect you or I but would leave some powerful and wealthy people somewhat less powerful and less wealthy.

I actually think the opposite is true.  If we leave, we can opt out of a financial transaction tax so voting out will make the banks and anyone with money in them more wealthy.  We'll also be able to avoid the EU's attempts to tighten up on tax havens, thus allowing the rich to stay wealthy.  We'll be able to avoid EU judgements scrutinising rules the powerful make to conceal information and to keep themselves powerful.

 

And certainly the press barons have every reason to tell the public to vote out. I'll let Rupert Murdoch tell you why.  From Anthony Hilton in the Standard:

"I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.” "

Source: http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anthony-hilton-stay-or-go-the-lack-of-solid-facts-means-it-s-all-a-leap-of-faith-a3189151.html

 

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3 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

I actually think the opposite is true.  If we leave, we can opt out of a financial transaction tax so voting out will make the banks and anyone with money in them more wealthy.  We'll also be able to avoid the EU's attempts to tighten up on tax havens, thus allowing the rich to stay wealthy.  We'll be able to avoid EU judgements scrutinising rules the powerful make to conceal information and to keep themselves powerful.

 

And certainly the press barons have every reason to tell the public to vote out. I'll let Rupert Murdoch tell you why.  From Anthony Hilton in the Standard:

"I once asked Rupert Murdoch why he was so opposed to the European Union. “That’s easy,” he replied. “When I go into Downing Street they do what I say; when I go to Brussels they take no notice.” "

Source: http://www.standard.co.uk/comment/comment/anthony-hilton-stay-or-go-the-lack-of-solid-facts-means-it-s-all-a-leap-of-faith-a3189151.html

 

More than happy to be educated on the subject, keep the info coming.

Surely out of the EU we have more control over our own politics and therefore the British voter can democratically influence such things? 

Not that i think for one moment, red or blue in charge would make much difference on the hiding your wealth factor. 

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On 23/04/2016 at 21:27, marshy said:

I'm surprised he used the word 'queue', always thought they used the word 'line' over there. Makes one think the whole thing was scripted by Downing Street.

Good observation there ;)

 

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21 minutes ago, Gazred said:

Coming from the position of not really knowing a bloody thing with regards to the pros and cons, what do you think the main motivation to stay in actually is, and is it correct?

 

We live in interesting times. It's a hugely complicated question and there's a dearth of independent information in the public arena with which to make a decision, with the loudest and sometimes most unqualified voices leading the debate.

I'll be voting In, but there's plenty to hate about the EU. Especially for an old labour man like myself. I just see leaving as a huge leap of faith in a pretty dire economical time when people are struggling for jobs and having salaries capped.  I just can't see how leaving the EU would do anything to fix the problems of the everyday worker right now.  I have not heard of one viable argument from Brexit into how we are suddenly going to produce lots of wealth and improve the economy once we are out. 

The brexit campaign has also focused on Nationalism which I hate. There is no two ways about it: people still regard Britain as a fantastic country whether we stay in Europe or not.  It shouldn't be a talking point.

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, Collis1 said:

 

We live in interesting times. It's a hugely complicated question and there's a dearth of independent information in the public arena with which to make a decision, with the loudest and sometimes most unqualified voices leading the debate.

I'll be voting In, but there's plenty to hate about the EU. Especially for an old labour man like myself. I just see leaving as a huge leap of faith in a pretty dire economical time when people are struggling for jobs and having salaries capped.  I just can't see how leaving the EU would do anything to fix the problems of the everyday worker right now.

The brexit campaign has also focused on Nationalism which I hate. There is no two ways about it: people still regard Britain as a fantastic country whether we stay in Europe or not.  It shouldn't be a talking point.

 

 

 

I think that is where my beef with it all stems from. The average person on the street needs the complete picture in bullet point form and it needs to be clear and concise. All we seem to be getting is a very strong pro in campaign.

So we are in but the everyday worker has problems, perhaps they might vote for the grass being greener? Perhaps they blindly see the EU as the problem. Without being educated about it, the pros and cons, how can anyone make an informed decision?

Agree on the Nationalistic approach, i don't think they are connecting with a majority there. 

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On 4/23/2016 at 21:27, marshy said:

I'm surprised he used the word 'queue', always thought they used the word 'line' over there. Makes one think the whole thing was scripted by Downing Street.

I think this is a bit of a red herring.  Obama was in the UK addressing a UK audience.  I'd imagine his advisors had briefed him on using local terminology where appropriate. 

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11 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

Embarrassingly this is what the Leave campaign has come down to.  I genuinely respect some of the reasons for leaving but the debate has turned into a load of people who cannot find any facts or evidence to back up the argument we'll be better off out of Europe so instead rubbish the evidence that does exist and make stuff up instead.

 

Genuinely embarrassing. This supposed to be a mature discussion of the future of our country, not some sort of playground argument where whoever lies the best wins. 

Highlighted the last point because it is an important one.

The absence of a mature debate is deliberate, the government cannot offer a mature debate because on any criteria with the exception of business and the economy they do not have a leg to stand on.  

For me its a simple vote.  vote out for democracy. Of the 4 blocks of the EU (Commission, Council, Court and Parliament) we only have a say over the Parliament and Council.  And frankly the Parliament is full of politicians from Anti-EU protest parties and the Council gives such a diluted version of autonomy to individual nations that it renders it pointless.

I also laugh when the racism point is put forward, The EU allows freedom of movement between member countries, the vast majority of the population being white in these countries.  Conversely Africans, Asians and South Americans go through Immigration procedures, one rule for the whites, one rule for the rest... 

If you want to vote on behalf of big businesses then fine, vote in, it makes sense if that is your priority.  As you're from London it's safe to assume the city would be better off in the EU.  However, literally everyone who doesn't prioritise business and lives outside the M25 should be voting out.

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8 hours ago, Just Red said:

Staying in or leaving will both be leaps of faith. I don't care about scare tactics from either side. When the idea of an in/out vote was first mentioned I instantly made my mind up to vote love. I want this country to stand on its own two feet.   

So you're just guessing. 

 

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9 hours ago, Just Red said:

Staying in or leaving will both be leaps of faith. I don't care about scare tactics from either side. When the idea of an in/out vote was first mentioned I instantly made my mind up to vote love. I want this country to stand on its own two feet.   

My sentiments exactly. Are you a child of the sixties by any chance?

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On 23/04/2016 at 19:37, howey_ducky said:

I'm not sure anything he says makes any difference.  He's lost the respect of lots of America during his time in office, lots of false promises and meaningless soundbites seem to be the way he operates.  

It's quite amusing to hear him speaking about Britain and the EU.  He comes across quite the has-been.  It would be more interesting to hear Clinton or Trump share their feelings on the subject.

To be fair, he's faced a Republican congress for the vast majority of his tenure that has been hell-bent on blocking everything the elected executive chief has tried to implement.

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38 minutes ago, Red-Robbo said:

To be fair, he's faced a Republican congress for the vast majority of his tenure that has been hell-bent on blocking everything the elected executive chief has tried to implement.

Exactly.  And its not just that - Right wing politics and capitalism are so deeply ingrained in American society it is very difficult to change anything for the greater good.

This is why I am so upset that the UK is copying the US way of thinking. We are just 10-20 years behind them. Maybe less.

The direction we are headed = Increase in inequality, more crime, more expensive healthcare, less workers rights.

Its so frustrating when I can see it happening before my eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Collis1 said:

Exactly.  And its not just that - Right wing politics and capitalism are so deeply ingrained in American society it is very difficult to change anything for the greater good.

This is why I am so upset that the UK is copying the US way of thinking. We are just 10-20 years behind them. Maybe less.

The direction we are headed = Increase in inequality, more crime, more expensive healthcare, less workers rights.

Its so frustrating when I can see it happening before my eyes.

 

 

 

 

 

How could there be LESS workers rights in the future, when there are, to all intents and purposes, none now?

It is one of Europe's biggest failings. Go to Italy or France, and you get rights. Come to the UK are it you verses your employer. Guess who wins 9/10?

Any of us could get sacked tomorrow, for no reason. If you don't much like this, you can take them to an ET, for limited return at a cost of £1000 a day.

Workers rights are non-existent in the UK.

Oh - that's if you have a contract in the first place.

:bruce_h4h:

 

Uncle TFR

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2 minutes ago, Taxi for Rennie said:

How could there be LESS workers rights in the future, when there are, to all intents and purposes, none now?

It is one of Europe's biggest failings. Go to Italy or France, and you get rights. Come to the UK are it you verses your employer. Guess who wins 9/10?

Any of us could get sacked tomorrow, for no reason. If you don't much like this, you can take them to an ET, for limited return at a cost of £1000 a day.

Workers rights are non-existent in the UK.

Oh - that's if you have a contract in the first place.

:bruce_h4h:

 

Uncle TFR

We still have far more rights than people in the US do.

e.g 25 days holiday a year is a unknown luxury to a yank.

Believe me, the rights we have now are worth fighting for.  If you think its bad now it will be worse for our children.

 

 

 

 

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