Stay in or back of the queue you go!

[...]

1 minute ago, Collis1 said:

We still have far more rights than people in the US do.

e.g 25 days holiday a year is a unknown luxury to a yank.

Believe me, the rights we have now are worth fighting for.  If you think its bad now it will be worse for our children.

 

 

 

 

Horse shit, you right-wing sop.

We need a revolution in this country: we need to tackle the establishment, and stand up for our hard-working comrades.

You are simply standing in our way.

 

Uncle TFR

[Up The City!]

47 minutes ago, Collis1 said:

No!

Haha!!! Of course everyone is because absolutely no one knows what will happen either way.

[BCFC Jimmer]

9 minutes ago, Just Red said:

Haha!!! Of course everyone is because absolutely no one knows what will happen either way.

Come on, think about this a bit more

Its not guessing is it? Its about weighing up the information available and making an informed decsion. Something that you clearly haven't done

 

 

 

 

 

[Barrs Court Red]

Tumblr and the Guardian are not exactly non biased information sources though.

Infact I'm yet to really find any on this issue. Plenty of opinion though. All desperately trying to influence.

[LondonBristolian]

22 hours ago, JM91 said:

Highlighted the last point because it is an important one.

The absence of a mature debate is deliberate, the government cannot offer a mature debate because on any criteria with the exception of business and the economy they do not have a leg to stand on.  

For me its a simple vote.  vote out for democracy. Of the 4 blocks of the EU (Commission, Council, Court and Parliament) we only have a say over the Parliament and Council.  And frankly the Parliament is full of politicians from Anti-EU protest parties and the Council gives such a diluted version of autonomy to individual nations that it renders it pointless.

I also laugh when the racism point is put forward, The EU allows freedom of movement between member countries, the vast majority of the population being white in these countries.  Conversely Africans, Asians and South Americans go through Immigration procedures, one rule for the whites, one rule for the rest... 

If you want to vote on behalf of big businesses then fine, vote in, it makes sense if that is your priority.  As you're from London it's safe to assume the city would be better off in the EU.  However, literally everyone who doesn't prioritise business and lives outside the M25 should be voting out.

I'd make a few points here.

Firstly, I'm not from London.  I'm from Bristol.  I live in London at the moment but my family are in Bristol and I expect to return in the next few years.  I have no interest whatsoever in doing what's in London's best interests at the expense of the rest of the country and neither is it in my interests to do so.

Secondly, I think you're making rather an error in your thinking in that London is probably one of the few places in the country that would be better off leaving.  Once again, it's worth pointing out that the EU want to tax huge financial transactions and limit tax havens.  The UK government (and this is true of both the current government and the previous Labour administration) do not support this as they would curb the super-wealthy in the City.  In this, it is very clearly the UK government protecting the wealth of the super-rich in London and the interests of big businesses where as the EU are trying to challenge these things.  The City has the most to gain from leaving the EU whilst initiatives such as the European Capital of Culture have seen investment in cities like Liverpool and Hull that the UK government has otherwise seemed deeply reluctant to invest.  Meanwhile it is under the EU that beaches in Britain's seaside resorts have raised standards significantly, despite the UK government of the 1980s trying to wheedle out of its obligations to make the quality of sea water safe for leaving.  The rest of Britain has far more to gain from staying in than London does.

Similarly, it is erroneous to think that Big business wants to stay in.  Some big businesses do, for sure.  Others do not.  The Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun and Telegraph all support leaving because it suits the oligarchs that run them to do so.  Vote Leave is run by Matthew Elliott, who is probably the most influential and effective corporate lobbyist in the UK and whose Tax Payers' Alliance is, despite its name, funded by big business. Vote Leave is funded by Peter Cruddas (who as at one point the richest man in the City of London and is worth 1.025 billion), Luke Johnson (worth £220 million) and John Mills (the biggest donor to the Labour Party).  The Leave campaign is funded by big hitters acting in their own interests and the spin that the Leave campaign is the voice of the little guy up against the establishment is simply spin and I very much hope people won't be fooled by that.

Next up, the lack of mature debate is not exactly confined only to the Remain camp.  The Leave campaign constantly deflect when asked their vision for a Britain outside the EU, frequently mislead the public (for example Gove claiming, apropos of nothing, that the EU agreement Cameron got isn't legally binding.  It is and he knows it) and cry foul whenever evidence is presented their way they don't want to refute.

I'd also point out, in terms of your point of racism, I completely agree with you except that nobody has raised the issue of racism in this thread except you.  And I can't help thinking you've done that because it's far easier to deny non-existent accusations or racism than it is to engage with the points that have been made about the economic damage of leaving which are far harder to refute. 

Also, I've acknowledged several times in this thread that the desire for self-determination and concerns about the absence of democracy in the EU are perfectly valid reasons to consider voting to leave.  However the point I would make is they are actually extremely good arguments for why it might be better if the EU didn't exist.  That option isn't on the ballot paper.  The EU will continue to exist whether we leave or not and we will still have to abide by the free market and free movement of peoples in order to trade with the EU, which we cannot afford not to do.  So all we're doing by leaving is losing what influence we do have.

Finally, I had to chuckle at this sentence:

"the government cannot offer a mature debate because on any criteria with the exception of business and the economy they do not have a leg to stand on."
 

Even if that were true - which, by the way, it clearly isn't.  There are significant benefits to staying in the EU in terms of the environment, employment rights and human rights. amongst other things - those are still two damned important legs. All the Leave campaign have is speculation and utopianism but no apparent evidence of any benefits of leaving or even a plan for what will happen if we do leave.  I'd take business and the economy of those every day of the week.

[JM91]

1 hour ago, LondonBristolian said:

"the government cannot offer a mature debate because on any criteria with the exception of business and the economy they do not have a leg to stand on."
 

Even if that were true - which, by the way, it clearly isn't.  There are significant benefits to staying in the EU in terms of the environment, employment rights and human rights. amongst other things - those are still two damned important legs. All the Leave campaign have is speculation and utopianism but no apparent evidence of any benefits of leaving or even a plan for what will happen if we do leave.  I'd take business and the economy of those every day of the week.

I'll take your point on the environment, that is fair.  but the other things you mention aren't attributable to the EU but to the European Court of Human rights which (unfortunately) we would not be leaving in the event of Brexit so cannot be used as a valid argument for staying in the EU.

[Up The City!]

11 hours ago, Collis1 said:

Come on, think about this a bit more

Its not guessing is it? Its about weighing up the information available and making an informed decsion. Something that you clearly haven't done

 

 

 

 

 

Of course it is guessing. The information available is complete bollocks from both sides. The question I asked myself was do I want to stay or leave the EU and I choose to vote leave.

Your basing your decision based on others opinions....

[Red-Robbo]

3 hours ago, LondonBristolian said:

I'd make a few points here.

Firstly, I'm not from London.  I'm from Bristol.  I live in London at the moment but my family are in Bristol and I expect to return in the next few years.  I have no interest whatsoever in doing what's in London's best interests at the expense of the rest of the country and neither is it in my interests to do so.

Secondly, I think you're making rather an error in your thinking in that London is probably one of the few places in the country that would be better off leaving.  Once again, it's worth pointing out that the EU want to tax huge financial transactions and limit tax havens.  The UK government (and this is true of both the current government and the previous Labour administration) do not support this as they would curb the super-wealthy in the City.  In this, it is very clearly the UK government protecting the wealth of the super-rich in London and the interests of big businesses where as the EU are trying to challenge these things.  The City has the most to gain from leaving the EU whilst initiatives such as the European Capital of Culture have seen investment in cities like Liverpool and Hull that the UK government has otherwise seemed deeply reluctant to invest.  Meanwhile it is under the EU that beaches in Britain's seaside resorts have raised standards significantly, despite the UK government of the 1980s trying to wheedle out of its obligations to make the quality of sea water safe for leaving.  The rest of Britain has far more to gain from staying in than London does.

Similarly, it is erroneous to think that Big business wants to stay in.  Some big businesses do, for sure.  Others do not.  The Daily Mail, Daily Express, Sun and Telegraph all support leaving because it suits the oligarchs that run them to do so.  Vote Leave is run by Matthew Elliott, who is probably the most influential and effective corporate lobbyist in the UK and whose Tax Payers' Alliance is, despite its name, funded by big business. Vote Leave is funded by Peter Cruddas (who as at one point the richest man in the City of London and is worth 1.025 billion), Luke Johnson (worth £220 million) and John Mills (the biggest donor to the Labour Party).  The Leave campaign is funded by big hitters acting in their own interests and the spin that the Leave campaign is the voice of the little guy up against the establishment is simply spin and I very much hope people won't be fooled by that.

Next up, the lack of mature debate is not exactly confined only to the Remain camp.  The Leave campaign constantly deflect when asked their vision for a Britain outside the EU, frequently mislead the public (for example Gove claiming, apropos of nothing, that the EU agreement Cameron got isn't legally binding.  It is and he knows it) and cry foul whenever evidence is presented their way they don't want to refute.

I'd also point out, in terms of your point of racism, I completely agree with you except that nobody has raised the issue of racism in this thread except you.  And I can't help thinking you've done that because it's far easier to deny non-existent accusations or racism than it is to engage with the points that have been made about the economic damage of leaving which are far harder to refute. 

Also, I've acknowledged several times in this thread that the desire for self-determination and concerns about the absence of democracy in the EU are perfectly valid reasons to consider voting to leave.  However the point I would make is they are actually extremely good arguments for why it might be better if the EU didn't exist.  That option isn't on the ballot paper.  The EU will continue to exist whether we leave or not and we will still have to abide by the free market and free movement of peoples in order to trade with the EU, which we cannot afford not to do.  So all we're doing by leaving is losing what influence we do have.

Finally, I had to chuckle at this sentence:

"the government cannot offer a mature debate because on any criteria with the exception of business and the economy they do not have a leg to stand on."
 

Even if that were true - which, by the way, it clearly isn't.  There are significant benefits to staying in the EU in terms of the environment, employment rights and human rights. amongst other things - those are still two damned important legs. All the Leave campaign have is speculation and utopianism but no apparent evidence of any benefits of leaving or even a plan for what will happen if we do leave.  I'd take business and the economy of those every day of the week.

By a factor of several trillion , the best informed contribution to this debate.  Actually argued on facts rather than uniformed opinions.

Cheers LB. 

[BCFC Jimmer]

7 hours ago, Just Red said:

Of course it is guessing. The information available is complete bollocks from both sides. The question I asked myself was do I want to stay or leave the EU and I choose to vote leave.

Your basing your decision based on others opinions....

Oh dear. 

You carry on mate...