Ozil Goal

[Tinmans Love Child]

3 hours ago, Robbored said:

He's been at the "daily Arsenal" for long it's become the only thing that he'll be remembered for. Might even end up on his gravestone........

Im not sure that he is truly bitter about Arsenal. It's not as if he supports Spurs. 

 

 

[Mr Popodopolous]

3 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I am going to do something that is very difficult for me, I am going to agree in essence with you (god I feel dirty).

The trouble is 'world class' like the word 'legend' are highly abused labels in the modern world of football.

World class to me is Christiano Ronaldo, Lionel Messi, Luis Suarez, Gareth Bale and Sergio Aguero, the sort of players that when they actually have an odd mare of a game the football world goes crazy because it's so unusual, unlike Ozil who has 4 average games, 4 less than average games, 4 great games and the odd amazing game.

For me the proof is if he was truly world class he would still be at Real Madrid but they obviously believed that they could live without him.

Xavi, Iniesta Modric? Could also arguably add Griezmann to the world class or approaching world class stage- he gets better and better and generally scores in big games- shit penalty taker though!

[Super]

Adrian Durham is so predictable what a bellend.

[Esmond Million's Bung]

3 hours ago, Mr Popodopolous said:

Xavi, Iniesta Modric? Could also arguably add Griezmann to the world class or approaching world class stage- he gets better and better and generally scores in big games- shit penalty taker though!

Probably couldn't argue with that.

[And Its Smith]

8 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

I am going to do something that is very difficult for me, I am going to agree in essence with you (god I feel dirty).

The trouble is 'world class' like the word 'legend' are highly abused labels in the modern world of football.

World class to me is Christiano Ronaldo, Lionel Messi, Luis Suarez, Gareth Bale and Sergio Aguero, the sort of players that when they actually have an odd mare of a game the football world goes crazy because it's so unusual, unlike Ozil who has 4 average games, 4 less than average games, 4 great games and the odd amazing game.

For me the proof is if he was truly world class he would still be at Real Madrid but they obviously believed that they could live without him.

We agree once a year normally! 

Why is it that the knowledgable people tend to come to threads later in the day?  

Couldn't agree more with what you've written.  Those players are world class along with De Bryne, De Gea, Chiellini and Neymar.  Players that rarely have off nights and even rarer are those off nights in big games.  

Unfortunately the modern way is to get bogged down in stats.  

[Esmond Million's Bung]

5 minutes ago, RedDave said:

We agree once a year normally! 

Why is it that the knowledgable people tend to come to threads later in the day?  

Couldn't agree more with what you've written.  Those players are world class along with De Bryne, De Gea, Chiellini and Neymar.  Players that rarely have off nights and even rarer are those off nights in big games.  

Unfortunately the modern way is to get bogged down in stats.  

Maybe add to the list Hazard now that he's extracted his head from his arse and possibly even Costa if he sticks to just playing football and I have to say Kante just gets better and better.

[BS4 on Tour...]

22 hours ago, Robbored said:

Durnham is soooooo transparent and I'm amazed that some listeners can't see that he's only doing his job...

I agree, I work for a very large company and I get involved with media training key spokespeople. The public persona they have to put across is so far removed from how they are in private.

In the same way a lot of clowns on here openly despise Warnock, Mourinho and Big Sam when they don't realise they are just hating their media personas and not the real person...

[Esmond Million's Bung]

5 minutes ago, BS4 on Tour... said:

I agree, I work for a very large company and I get involved with media training key spokespeople. The public persona they have to put across is so far removed from how they are in private.

In the same way a lot of clowns on here openly despise Warnock, Mourinho and Big Sam when they don't realise they are just hating their media personas and not the real person...

You make it sound like they act like Christopher Biggins to get his/their annual pantomime dame gig every year, I don't like him either.

[JasonM88]

22 hours ago, RedDave said:

Not really talking stats as they are misleading.  Can't remember a big game where he has taken it by the scruff of the neck and won his team the game

I ******* hate that argument. Yes stats can be misleading to an extent, but whenever someone is clearly being proven wrong by stats they fall back on 'oh stats can display anything you want'.  

[Mr Popodopolous]

10 hours ago, Esmond Million's Bung said:

Maybe add to the list Hazard now that he's extracted his head from his arse and possibly even Costa if he sticks to just playing football and I have to say Kante just gets better and better.

All good additions. Earlier in the season when Man City won 4 on the spin I had a feeling that Conte's Chelsea would be the big threat to them- the biggest threat. Quickly thought again after their losses to Liverpool and Arsenal, but now- well who knows in this season eh but I wish I had put money on them for a top 2 when they dropped off in late September!

[And Its Smith]

32 minutes ago, JasonM88 said:

I ******* hate that argument. Yes stats can be misleading to an extent, but whenever someone is clearly being proven wrong by stats they fall back on 'oh stats can display anything you want'.  

If you score a goal when your team is 3-0 down is it as important as when you score at 0-0?  No but stats won't tell you that.  If you make a five yard square pass and your team mate rifles one in from 30 yards then well done for an excellent assist!!

Regarding Ozil, I've not been proved wrong by stats on this thread

[JasonM88]

8 minutes ago, RedDave said:

If you score a goal when your team is 3-0 down is it as important as when you score at 0-0?  No but stats won't tell you that.  If you make a five yard square pass and your team mate rifles one in from 30 yards then well done for an excellent assist!!

Regarding Ozil, I've not been proved wrong by stats on this thread

Assists against the 'big 4'. Goodbye

[And Its Smith]

4 minutes ago, JasonM88 said:

Assists against the 'big 4'. Goodbye

So you say he has made assists against the big four and that proves a point?  How many assists per game?  Did his assists come at crucial times or when game was lost? 

You stats people look at one number that you think backs up your beliefs but don't dig deeper.  Watching players closely and taking into account game situations seems so old fashioned now!

[Bar BS3]

Typical Arsenal. Always trying to walk the ball into the net..!

 

 

 

 

Just like Rovers, according to some of the callers to RB after Saturday's defeat...! 

[BRISTOL86]

To me, a 'world class' player is one who has very few rivals for the best in the world in their position. Ozil most definitely falls into that bracket. 

To those who don't consider him a world class player - who (currently playing) would you rate above Ozil in his position? I'm really struggling to think of more than maybe one or two you could argue is a better contributor to their team. 

[And Its Smith]

2 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

To me, a 'world class' player is one who has very few rivals for the best in the world in their position. Ozil most definitely falls into that bracket. 

To those who don't consider him a world class player - who (currently playing) would you rate above Ozil in his position? I'm really struggling to think of more than maybe one or two you could argue is a better contributor to their team. 

Messi, De Bryne, Bale, Griezmann, Sanchez,  Hazard,  Silva, Neymar. 

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Messi, De Bryne, Bale, Griezmann, Sanchez,  Hazard,  Silva, Neymar. 

2 of those play in Ozil's position. 1 was on my list. 

[And Its Smith]

18 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

2 of those play in Ozil's position. 1 was on my list. 

Players who play behind the striker are constantly changing places on the pitch.  All of those players have and do play where Ozil plays and he has and does play where they play.  All of those players are better than Ozil and I think most would agree with that.  

Interestingly the challenge I set @JasonM88 has been declined.  Doubt he could answer it.  Feel free to take up the mantle.

[Luxo Jr.]

On 11/2/2016 at 09:27, RedDave said:

Not really talking stats as they are misleading.  Can't remember a big game where he has taken it by the scruff of the neck and won his team the game

I feel like football generally isn't an individual-driven sport any more, so you don't often see players taking a game "by the scruff of the neck" - that feels like the way you'd describe a vintage Gerrard performance.

If you look at the Liverpool of today, however, which you'd argue is currently performing more successfully than Gerrard's Liverpool, you can see it's a well-oiled machine, where people move together. It's a style of play dictated by the work and movement rather than individual players - obviously Coutinho stands out, but not by winning the match by himself, but performing his duty successfully.

Going back to Ozil, his style of play is not one that appears like he is taking the game "by the scruff of the neck", but that doesn't mean he isn't exceptional. You don't have to be the one who visibly put the ball in the back of the net to be the biggest influence on the game, and his vision, link-up and general movement makes everything so much easier for Arsenal, and Sanchez. Lallana is similar - people are praising him now because he's added goals to his game, but he was doing very good things for Liverpool even last season.

Is there anyone who wins a game by themselves these days? Ronaldo, arguably yes (though you could argue that he tries to do so). Messi, Neymar and Suarez are an unstoppable front 3, but it wouldn't work nearly as well if they were all trying to win it by themselves. This is why Leicester won the league last season, and why people hated (but I rather enjoyed) Euro 2016. It's more a team game now than it ever was.

[And Its Smith]

3 minutes ago, Luxo Jr. said:

I feel like football generally isn't an individual-driven sport any more, so you don't often see players taking a game "by the scruff of the neck" - that feels like the way you'd describe a vintage Gerrard performance.

If you look at the Liverpool of today, however, which you'd argue is currently performing more successfully than Gerrard's Liverpool, you can see it's a well-oiled machine, where people move together. It's a style of play dictated by the work and movement rather than individual players - obviously Coutinho stands out, but not by winning the match by himself, but performing his duty successfully.

Going back to Ozil, his style of play is not one that appears like he is taking the game "by the scruff of the neck", but that doesn't mean he isn't exceptional. You don't have to be the one who visibly put the ball in the back of the net to be the biggest influence on the game, and his vision, link-up and general movement makes everything so much easier for Arsenal, and Sanchez. Lallana is similar - people are praising him now because he's added goals to his game, but he was doing very good things for Liverpool even last season.

Is there anyone who wins a game by themselves these days? Ronaldo, arguably yes (though you could argue that he tries to do so). Messi, Neymar and Suarez are an unstoppable front 3, but it wouldn't work nearly as well if they were all trying to win it by themselves. This is why Leicester won the league last season, and why people hated (but I rather enjoyed) Euro 2016. It's more a team game now than it ever was.

Leicester won the league mostly due to Mayrez, Vardy and Kante (and being organised of course).  Arsenal have better players for sure and apparently Ozil is one of their best yet they couldn't win it and haven't done anything in the time Ozil has been there. 

Ozil does win Arsenal games like last week so I don't agree with your overall point.  My point is that he doesn't do that on the big occasions.  I will repeat that I think he is an excellent player, just isn't world class and is overrated 

[BRISTOL86]

22 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Players who play behind the striker are constantly changing places on the pitch.  All of those players have and do play where Ozil plays and he has and does play where they play.  All of those players are better than Ozil and I think most would agree with that.  

Interestingly the challenge I set @JasonM88 has been declined.  Doubt he could answer it.  Feel free to take up the mantle.

Ozil's primary position (16 of his 18 appearances this season) is that of a central attacking midfielder.  That's only really true of one from your list of 8. 

Of the others you mentioned, in a collective 89 appearances, 5 of them have been in Ozil's primary position.

All very fine, world class players but largely irrelevant comparisons to Ozil, especially bringing the likes of Bale, Neymar and Messi into it. 

[And Its Smith]

33 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

Ozil's primary position (16 of his 18 appearances this season) is that of a central attacking midfielder.  That's only really true of one from your list of 8. 

Of the others you mentioned, in a collective 89 appearances, 5 of them have been in Ozil's primary position.

All very fine, world class players but largely irrelevant comparisons to Ozil, especially bringing the likes of Bale, Neymar and Messi into it. 

So because a lot of the best teams in the world play a different shape to Arsenal that means Ozil is world class?  Good logic!

Comparing attacking midfielders is fine irrespective of whether they play central, left or right as players interchange.  The game is more fluid than 5-10 years ago, something I think you probably know.

 

[BRISTOL86]

3 minutes ago, RedDave said:

So because a lot of the best teams in the world play a different shape to Arsenal that means Ozil is world class?  Good logic!

Comparing attacking midfielders is fine irrespective of whether they play central, left or right as players interchange.  The game is more fluid than 5-10 years ago, something I think you probably know.

 

To say Messi, Bale, Neymar and Ozil's respective roles in their team is the same is wrong. They're very different players in very different roles. Matthews and Flint are both defenders, does it mean Flint's a better player because he wins more headers?

Ozil has been a key contributor to his team everywhere he's played.

You obviously don't like him and that's fine. But if you can't name more than one or two players in the world who play his specific role who are better than him at what he does then I don't see how you can say he's not amongst the best at it. 

[And Its Smith]

30 minutes ago, BRISTOL86 said:

To say Messi, Bale, Neymar and Ozil's respective roles in their team is the same is wrong. They're very different players in very different roles. Matthews and Flint are both defenders, does it mean Flint's a better player because he wins more headers?

Ozil has been a key contributor to his team everywhere he's played.

You obviously don't like him and that's fine. But if you can't name more than one or two players in the world who play his specific role who are better than him at what he does then I don't see how you can say he's not amongst the best at it. 

Matthews and Flint don't swap positions so that's a ridiculous comparison.

So if you had to name a world XI and a reserve world XI playing 4-2-3-1, who would be your two sets of 3 behind the striker.  Mine would be:

Bale,  Messi,  Neymar

Hazard, De Bryne, Griezmann

Guess you'd have Ozil in the reserves!

 

[BRISTOL86]

39 minutes ago, RedDave said:

Matthews and Flint don't swap positions so that's a ridiculous comparison.

So if you had to name a world XI and a reserve world XI playing 4-2-3-1, who would be your two sets of 3 behind the striker.  Mine would be:

Bale,  Messi,  Neymar

Hazard, De Bryne, Griezmann

Guess you'd have Ozil in the reserves!

 

If a true 4231 then probably Hazard - KDB - Griezmann on form. Though Griezmann being in the mix is tenuous at best, he's used almost exclusively as an out and out central forward these days. 

If attacking wingers - more of a 433 - then Neymar and Bale probably with KDB centrally. Incidentally KDB was my one player I'd have ahead of Ozil, so yes Ozil would be on the bench. 

Which way you carve up the world's best players is irrelevant. He's still amongst the best in the world in his position thus making him world class, no? 

[And Its Smith]

2 hours ago, BRISTOL86 said:

If a true 4231 then probably Hazard - KDB - Griezmann on form. Though Griezmann being in the mix is tenuous at best, he's used almost exclusively as an out and out central forward these days. 

If attacking wingers - more of a 433 - then Neymar and Bale probably with KDB centrally. Incidentally KDB was my one player I'd have ahead of Ozil, so yes Ozil would be on the bench. 

Which way you carve up the world's best players is irrelevant. He's still amongst the best in the world in his position thus making him world class, no? 

Still nobody has been able to point to a massive game he's had a big influence on.  If he's world class there must be loads!

[JamesBCFC]

Hmm, an irrational dislike of Ozil and refusal to give Wenger any credit- methinks reddave has a problem with Arsenal more than anything

[Cunnyfunt]

Ozil is a very good player but like Arsenal when the pressure is on, he invariably goes missing. 

[JamesBCFC]

5 hours ago, RedDave said:

Messi, De Bryne, Bale, Griezmann, Sanchez,  Hazard,  Silva, Neymar. 

Here's the thing, most of those play a different position. That's not because of the team shape, its because they play a different position.

Sanchez plays wide/as a striker, Ozil is a central attacking midfielder.

Neymar plays wide/as a striker, Ozil is a CAM

Messi plays wide/as a striker, Ozil is a CAM

Bale plays wide, Ozil is a CAM

Griezmann is a striker, Ozil is a CAM

Hazard can play as a CAM, but is better on the wing, Ozil is a CAM.

Ozil is better than Silva imo, but David Silva has better players alongside him who are able to make more of what he creates.

That leaves De Bruyne

[Leveller]

On 02/11/2016 at 21:44, BS4 on Tour... said:

I agree, I work for a very large company and I get involved with media training key spokespeople. The public persona they have to put across is so far removed from how they are in private.

In the same way a lot of clowns on here openly despise Warnock, Mourinho and Big Sam when they don't realise they are just hating their media personas and not the real person...

I resent being called a clown for disliking vile Colin.

its quite clear the true Colin is the nasty piece of work you see reacting on the touch line. The media act is the cuddly Colin you see in interviews later.