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Evidence needed.....


Gert Mare

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There seems to be a big split appearing amongst our supporters (deja vu - SC).

Personally, I look at things in black and white and don't do fluffy fuzzy warm fantasy.

I would like to be convinced why Lee Johnson is the right long term manager for City?

For those of you in the LJ positive camp please  feel free to present your factual supporting evidence because I really want to buy into this 'long term' dream. Unfortunately at the moment though I am not feeling the love......

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5 minutes ago, Cheesleysmate said:

There seems to be a big split appearing amongst our supporters (deja vu - SC).

Personally, I look at things in black and white and don't do fluffy fuzzy warm fantasy.

I would like to be convinced why Lee Johnson is the right long term manager for City?

For those of you in the LJ positive camp please  feel free to present your factual supporting evidence because I really want to buy into this 'long term' dream. Unfortunately at the moment though I am not feeling the love......

Not sure who you think you are asking for evidence for the LJ camp??

Its simple your job as a fan is to support bcfc and there manger, how simple is that? 

Seems like you and others are kind of enjoying this losing streak a bit to much!

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2 minutes ago, Spoons said:

Not sure who you think you are asking for evidence for the LJ camp??

Its simple your job as a fan is to support bcfc and there manger, how simple is that? 

Seems like you and others are kind of enjoying this losing streak a bit to much!

I'm not enjoying it in the slightest. Like I said I am looking to be convinced otherwise. You seem to want to ridicule what I am saying so off you go, convince me otherwise.....

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There's no factual evidence that he will be successful because there's no way anyone can factually predict what will happen.

I'm a big fan of LJ and I really really want him to do well. My reasons for thinking he will are these..

1) Lansdown loves him. SL will back LJ if he's struggling because SL will want him to work out. I expect whatever LJ fees he needs in January, SL will sanction (within reason).

2) LJ is still improving. LJ, like lots of our players, is learning and improving. He's very inexperienced in this league compared to the likes of Benitez, Warnock etc and has lots of time to improve. He will be learning lots from this poor run of form.

3) Our squad isn't that bad. With a few additions I think we will have a pretty good squad. At the moment I think it's a bit overly deep in certain areas and lacks others. Address this in January and we will look much stronger.

 

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5 minutes ago, Cheesleysmate said:

I'm not enjoying it in the slightest. Like I said I am looking to be convinced otherwise. You seem to want to ridicule what I am saying so off you go, convince me otherwise.....

I can't take you seriously because you think that GJ and PJ still have an impact on our club today.

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6 minutes ago, Spoons said:

I can't take you seriously because you think that GJ and PJ still have an impact on our club today.

If I am wrong about it then happy for someone in the know to confirm otherwise. Apart from that I would like to know what people see as the positives.

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10 minutes ago, Phileas Fogg said:

There's no factual evidence that he will be successful because there's no way anyone can factually predict what will happen.

I'm a big fan of LJ and I really really want him to do well. My reasons for thinking he will are these..

1) Lansdown loves him. SL will back LJ if he's struggling because SL will want him to work out. I expect whatever LJ fees he needs in January, SL will sanction (within reason).

2) LJ is still improving. LJ, like lots of our players, is learning and improving. He's very inexperienced in this league compared to the likes of Benitez, Warnock etc and has lots of time to improve. He will be learning lots from this poor run of form.

3) Our squad isn't that bad. With a few additions I think we will have a pretty good squad. At the moment I think it's a bit overly deep in certain areas and lacks others. Address this in January and we will look much stronger.

 

Granted that no-one can predict the future.

Point 1 I agree with. This is a bit of a positive I guess?. I think SL has to back LJ because he wasn't the number 1 choice amongst the majority of supporters (if this is factually incorrect then I apologise) and so SL has to prove that he knows best, and I think that there has to be transfer window dealings and they need to be done early in the January window. 

Point 2 - I disagree. I haven't seen any evidence of improvement on the field. I think we have been poor for most of the season and got away with a few results thanks in the main to the early form of Tammy Abraham which seemed to lift the confidence of those around him. Without Tammy's goals we would be in a very real relegation dog fight right now. Lee constantly tinkers with his tactics and plays players out of position. Some of his substitutions have been questionable, and the same mistakes are costing us when we have had time in training to work on our weaknesses.   His signings have left us unbalanced and some players don't seem up it? Football is a results driven business. Sentiment and football has never gone hand in hand. How many game do you have to lose 'on the trot' before enough is enough?

Point 3 - our squad is a good league one squad but not up to Championship standard. Granted we are not getting thrashed week in and week out, but the facts are saying LLLLL and not broken up with the odd win or draw in between. We are certainly unbalanced and we are not strong or quick enough out of possion. These are things that the manager needs to address.

Point 1 does give me a bit of hope anyway so thanks.

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It's hard to feel positive about any manager on the planet after such a losing sequence.

Even if this was Ferguson in his pomp, or Mourinho, then very few of the Man U fans or Chelsea fans would have felt positive about the future of their manager.

And as we all know even Mourinho was fired after a similar poor run with Chelsea.

I think the main point is, it doesn't matter if the manager is Lee Johnson or anyone else, after such a poor run the confidence in the manager will always erode.

Only wins and more points on the board will help to restore confidence and positivity concerning the gaffer. Like I've said on my thread, I can see us beating Ipswich again.

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1 hour ago, Cheesleysmate said:

Granted that no-one can predict the future.

Point 1 I agree with. This is a bit of a positive I guess?. I think SL has to back LJ because he wasn't the number 1 choice amongst the majority of supporters (if this is factually incorrect then I apologise) and so SL has to prove that he knows best, and I think that there has to be transfer window dealings and they need to be done early in the January window. 

Point 2 - I disagree. I haven't seen any evidence of improvement on the field. I think we have been poor for most of the season and got away with a few results thanks in the main to the early form of Tammy Abraham which seemed to lift the confidence of those around him. Without Tammy's goals we would be in a very real relegation dog fight right now. Lee constantly tinkers with his tactics and plays players out of position. Some of his substitutions have been questionable, and the same mistakes are costing us when we have had time in training to work on our weaknesses.   His signings have left us unbalanced and some players don't seem up it? Football is a results driven business. Sentiment and football has never gone hand in hand. How many game do you have to lose 'on the trot' before enough is enough?

Point 3 - our squad is a good league one squad but not up to Championship standard. Granted we are not getting thrashed week in and week out, but the facts are saying LLLLL and not broken up with the odd win or draw in between. We are certainly unbalanced and we are not strong or quick enough out of possion. These are things that the manager needs to address.

Point 1 does give me a bit of hope anyway so thanks.

Point 2 I disagree with you. There has plenty of improvement in terms of performance... chances created and so on, what we lack is taking those chances, fine lines and all but if we were totally abject we would be where we were last season.... hideous GD and rooted to the bottom of the league... spanked by Rotherham, Derby, Burnley and so on.

Point 3:- absolutely appalling officiating has probably cost us a few points... Reading and yesterday are 2 prime examples of this. Some of those L's could've been D's or W's, the officiating has had some bearing on results

 

 

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10 minutes ago, Dark Wood Covert said:

Point 2 I disagree with you. There has plenty of improvement in terms of performance... chances created and so on, what we lack is taking those chances, fine lines and all but if we were totally abject we would be where we were last season.... hideous GD and rooted to the bottom of the league... spanked by Rotherham, Derby, Burnley and so on.

Point 3:- absolutely appalling officiating has probably cost us a few points... Reading and yesterday are 2 prime examples of this. Some of those L's could've been D's or W's, the officiating has had some bearing on results

 

 

I certainly agree that we have been unlucky at times but tactics have been questionable. We conceded so much last season because SC stuck with 3-5-2 and didn't trust any of his players on the bench. What worries me is that LJ talks about our problems very eloquently but then sends out his side the following week and we make the same mistakes. Where are the promising managerial skills?

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4 minutes ago, Cheesleysmate said:

I certainly agree that we have been unlucky at times but tactics have been questionable. We conceded so much last season because SC stuck with 3-5-2 and didn't trust any of his players on the bench. What worries me is that LJ talks about our problems very eloquently but then sends out his side the following week and we make the same mistakes. Where are the promising managerial skills?

Individual errors are not really the fault of the manager though... they are things that unfortunately happen, lets be honest a prime example is Flint... don't get me wrong, think he is a cult hero but he makes individual errors and not SOD, SC or LJ have been able to coach that out of him. If LJ cannot be accused of anything its rigidity of formation, he must've changed the formation 3 or 4 times this season. 

Cotterill from what posters has said on here and the signs through his more candid interviews was that he was increasingly stubborn to make a tired point to the board... his refusal to play loans, not name a full bench was down to his ego

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2 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

If I am wrong about it then happy for someone in the know to confirm otherwise. Apart from that I would like to know what people see as the positives.

The title of this thread is evidence needed. Again, if you make a claim you have to provide the evidence not ask us to prove a negative. 

I think you are on stronger ground with your other points frankly and indulging in a kind of conspiracy thinking undermines your case.

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1 hour ago, Cheesleysmate said:

Granted that no-one can predict the future.

Point 1 I agree with. This is a bit of a positive I guess?. I think SL has to back LJ because he wasn't the number 1 choice amongst the majority of supporters (if this is factually incorrect then I apologise) and so SL has to prove that he knows best, and I think that there has to be transfer window dealings and they need to be done early in the January window. 

Point 2 - I disagree. I haven't seen any evidence of improvement on the field. I think we have been poor for most of the season and got away with a few results thanks in the main to the early form of Tammy Abraham which seemed to lift the confidence of those around him. Without Tammy's goals we would be in a very real relegation dog fight right now. Lee constantly tinkers with his tactics and plays players out of position. Some of his substitutions have been questionable, and the same mistakes are costing us when we have had time in training to work on our weaknesses.   His signings have left us unbalanced and some players don't seem up it? Football is a results driven business. Sentiment and football has never gone hand in hand. How many game do you have to lose 'on the trot' before enough is enough?

Point 3 - our squad is a good league one squad but not up to Championship standard. Granted we are not getting thrashed week in and week out, but the facts are saying LLLLL and not broken up with the odd win or draw in between. We are certainly unbalanced and we are not strong or quick enough out of possion. These are things that the manager needs to address.

Point 1 does give me a bit of hope anyway so thanks.

Complete and utter nonsense.

If our squad wasn't championship we wouldn't be where we are....pretty simple really.

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5 minutes ago, Dark Wood Covert said:

Individual errors are not really the fault of the manager though... they are things that unfortunately happen, lets be honest a prime example is Flint... don't get me wrong, think he is a cult hero but he makes individual errors and not SOD, SC or LJ have been able to coach that out of him. If LJ cannot be accused of anything its rigidity of formation, he must've changed the formation 3 or 4 times this season. 

Cotterill from what posters has said on here and the signs through his more candid interviews was that he was increasingly stubborn to make a tired point to the board... his refusal to play loans, not name a full bench was down to his ego

Perhaps we should play Taylor-Moore I. The back 4 and play Aden Flint up top alongside Tammy?

What if Flint was Chris Sutton in disguise? Flinty's old man Nobby was a striker.

Unfortunately the buck stops with the manager in the end. How many times have we witnessed a team getting their manager sacked in the modern day game only to see the same players play like world beaters under a new boss? 

The heat is definitely on LJ in January. I'd prefer continuity but not in terms of LLLLLL.

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10 minutes ago, chinapig said:

The title of this thread is evidence needed. Again, if you make a claim you have to provide the evidence not ask us to prove a negative. 

I think you are on stronger ground with your other points frankly and indulging in a kind of conspiracy thinking undermines your case.

I think I have provided evidence in my responses? 

It's not about the opinions but if you want to labour the point by taking some holier than though response then carry on if it excites you. 

I am more interested in is the facts that back up why LJ is the up and coming tactical genius that people claim him to be?

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I for one think Lee is the right man for us. Ex city player who loves the club and will do all he can to make a success of this. He has gone out of his way to learn from others,  in a pressure cooker job. 

Yes we can have other managers with more experience but they never come.  They demand too much because that is what they are use to , from the other clubs they have managed. How many good managers use their knowledge of management to get the best out of players they have.  None because they have a club that throw millions of pounds on players,  to get success instead of building on the players they have and use youngsters in the academy. 

Lee has bought for the future but with a few new players in , we shall see a difference.  

It's all easy for us to say this and that but would you want somebody to tell you how to do your job ! No. 

So let's get behind Lee and the team and show everybody that Bristol City are here to stay. 

COYR 

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39 minutes ago, kiwicolin said:

I for one think Lee is the right man for us. Ex city player who loves the club and will do all he can to make a success of this. He has gone out of his way to learn from others,  in a pressure cooker job. 

Yes we can have other managers with more experience but they never come.  They demand too much because that is what they are use to , from the other clubs they have managed. How many good managers use their knowledge of management to get the best out of players they have.  None because they have a club that throw millions of pounds on players,  to get success instead of building on the players they have and use youngsters in the academy. 

Lee has bought for the future but with a few new players in , we shall see a difference.  

It's all easy for us to say this and that but would you want somebody to tell you how to do your job ! No. 

So let's get behind Lee and the team and show everybody that Bristol City are here to stay. 

COYR 

This makes us sound like the Rovers.

I know we haven't been top flight for 36 years but we are hardly tinpot. We have just been a club that has continually jumped on it's own sword through awful decisions behind the scenes over the years, so people are skeptical about joining us.

Tinman loved the club but passion for a club doesn't get you anywhere on its own. 

If he gets the right players in January then we could well pull clear but from what I have seen so far my knives are being sharpened.

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3 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

I think I have provided evidence in my responses? 

It's not about the opinions but if you want to labour the point by taking some holier than though response then carry on if it excites you. 

I am more interested in is the facts that back up why LJ is the up and coming tactical genius that people claim him to be?

If I have missed the evidence that Gary and Pete Johnson are somehow influencing current management of the club, by all means put me right and I will happily apologise and withdraw.

It just seems a red herring to me when the other points you, and many others, make about LJ when it comes to coaching and recruitment have much more substance and I am to a great extent in agreement. If our slide continues unchecked I may join in the ranks of those calling for his head.

Whatever is going wrong is certainly down to him rather than any alleged external factors and for me it at least a case of the jury still being out on LJ.

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2 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

This makes us sound like the Rovers.

I know we haven't been top flight for 36 years but we are hardly tinpot. We have just been a club that has continually jumped on it's own sword through awful decisions behind the scenes over the years, so people are skeptical about joining us.

Tinman loved the club but passion for a club doesn't get you anywhere on its own. 

If he gets the right players in January then we could well pull clear but from what I have seen so far my knives are being sharpened.

Yes Tinman did love the club but he didn't go to the lengths as Lee has , to become a better manager.  Lee has asked for guidance    from some of the best managers and professionals in other jobs , on how to cope with the pressure of being a football manager. 

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8 hours ago, Phileas Fogg said:

There's no factual evidence that he will be successful because there's no way anyone can factually predict what will happen.

I'm a big fan of LJ and I really really want him to do well. My reasons for thinking he will are these..

1) Lansdown loves him. SL will back LJ if he's struggling because SL will want him to work out. I expect whatever LJ fees he needs in January, SL will sanction (within reason).

2) LJ is still improving. LJ, like lots of our players, is learning and improving. He's very inexperienced in this league compared to the likes of Benitez, Warnock etc and has lots of time to improve. He will be learning lots from this poor run of form.

3) Our squad isn't that bad. With a few additions I think we will have a pretty good squad. At the moment I think it's a bit overly deep in certain areas and lacks others. Address this in January and we will look much stronger.

 

Quite possibly the best post I have read on OTIB. :clap:

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17 minutes ago, PolskRed said:

Quite possibly the best post I have read on OTIB. :clap:

Haha, thanks but you're easily pleased - there are some great posts on here far more articulate and knowledgeable than this! I believe in what I wrote though, and I really really want LJ to succeed.

I believe he's a genuinely good man with good intentions who actually cares about the club. I feel like the Johnsons' have unfinished business here and I'd love the poetry of it being LJ, chastised here as a player and not given a fair chance as manager by many fans, completing what his father started. Given time, I think he will achieve this. 

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9 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

There seems to be a big split appearing amongst our supporters (deja vu - SC).

Personally, I look at things in black and white and don't do fluffy fuzzy warm fantasy.

I would like to be convinced why Lee Johnson is the right long term manager for City?

For those of you in the LJ positive camp please  feel free to present your factual supporting evidence because I really want to buy into this 'long term' dream. Unfortunately at the moment though I am not feeling the love......

How about we start with you presenting our stats since LJ took over, less than a year ago (I actually don't know how they stack up because I've not bothered looking) 

Of course, they will include all the defeats during this miserable but during the last 12 games. So, jot down the facts for me and then I'll tell you if I think that he's been doing a terrible job that's worthy of all the spineless, ship jumping that's going on at the moment. 

Cheers. 

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9 hours ago, Cheesleysmate said:

I'm not enjoying it in the slightest. Like I said I am looking to be convinced otherwise. You seem to want to ridicule what I am saying so off you go, convince me otherwise.....

Perhaps I need to make this simpler for you to answer. 

Which (how many) previous City managers have had better stats at Championship level than LJ currently has in his time here..? 

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11 hours ago, Bar BS3 said:

How about we start with you presenting our stats since LJ took over, less than a year ago (I actually don't know how they stack up because I've not bothered looking) 

Of course, they will include all the defeats during this miserable but during the last 12 games. So, jot down the facts for me and then I'll tell you if I think that he's been doing a terrible job that's worthy of all the spineless, ship jumping that's going on at the moment. 

Cheers. 

I don't have the number to hand, but I believe it was roughly a 43% win rate when I looked at it after the game.

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2 hours ago, JamesBCFC said:

I don't have the number to hand, but I believe it was roughly a 43% win rate when I looked at it after the game.

So pretty much up there with our best performing managers at this level then. 

I thought that might be the case. 

Of course, current results can't continue, but we aren't getting stuffed, we have been unfortunate with some decisions, we have missed some great chances and we have made some silly individual errors. None of which can be directly attributed to LJ. 

Hopefully things click back into place and we can start picking up the results needed again to finish mid table. 

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