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DavidNoble

21st

21st  

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3 minutes ago, old_eastender said:

With LJ staying in charge it's all about avoiding relegation, 21st will do.

I know what you mean, but that will be a move backwards from last year, so it's a 'no' from me. By the end of the season Lee will have had two of his three transfer windows with the upcoming summer making the third. How are going to attract the sort of players we need to in the summer if we've just stayed up by the skin of our teeth? This window and the remainder of the season are crucial for Lee - I hope he proves to be the man to take us forward but a 21st finish just won't cut it.

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Not a chance would I. 

We're better than that and we are better than our current form. We are better placed than most to have a good transfer window: we have cash on the hip and we have done our reputation for loan players wonders in Tammy Abraham. 

For now, and in part due to the window opening tomorrow, I genuinely have few relegation fears so no need to accept 21st. 

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Thought this season would be slightly different.  21st for me would not be progress. Gutted how things have gone so far. Lots to play for I suppose . Getting a lot like the end of Cotts days. Nothing's ever easily done at City!!

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We haven't made any progress. Lots of hot air has been spouted but we aren't even as good a team as we were at the back end of last year.

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5 minutes ago, Griffin said:

After spending 11m, I class 21st as going way backwards 

Very much so - we finished 18th last season.

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27 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Not a chance would I. 

We're better than that and we are better than our current form. We are better placed than most to have a good transfer window: we have cash on the hip and we have done our reputation for loan players wonders in Tammy Abraham. 

For now, and in part due to the window opening tomorrow, I genuinely have few relegation fears so no need to accept 21st. 

Not so sure. How many games have we played really well in (longer than 45 mins) i have watched every home game and would say hardly any. 

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13 minutes ago, Nomad said:

We haven't made any progress. Lots of hot air has been spouted but we aren't even as good a team as we were at the back end of last year.

This time last year we were what 23rd? on what? 20 points? 6 places higher and 7 points more seems an improvement especially when we've lost our main striker in the last week of the window. 

As for the main question, I'd take 21st. Staying up is important. We had no problems recruiting this year(opinions on players aside). We wouldn't have problems next summer. Our young players are a year older and wiser. It's like you guys expect top 6 every year. Our second year up and staying up is still important. You can go from relegation candidates to promotion contenders in a year. We're still progressing behind the scenes the pitch bit will catch up soon. 

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9 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

This time last year we were what 23rd? on what? 20 points? 6 places higher and 7 points more seems an improvement especially when we've lost our main striker in the last week of the window. 

As for the main question, I'd take 21st. Staying up is important. We had no problems recruiting this year(opinions on players aside). We wouldn't have problems next summer. Our young players are a year older and wiser. It's like you guys expect top 6 every year. Our second year up and staying up is still important. You can go from relegation candidates to promotion contenders in a year. We're still progressing behind the scenes the pitch bit will catch up soon. 

You can also go from relegation candidates to relegated in a year 

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15 minutes ago, Super said:

Not so sure. How many games have we played really well in (longer than 45 mins) i have watched every home game and would say hardly any. 

Same, haven't seen many opposition play well across >45m either; think that is the nature of the league pal. 

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5 minutes ago, Spoons said:

Everyone who voted no must want to get relegated ??

No, I voted "no" because I want to get higher than 21st.

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58 minutes ago, joe jordans teeth said:

You can also go from relegation candidates to relegated in a year 

That's the beauty of it though. We just don't know right now and we've been worse off as recently as last season and stayed up. Too early to write us off as many are doing. 

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14 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

That's the beauty of it though. We just don't know right now and we've been worse off as recently as last season and stayed up. Too early to write us off as many are doing. 

I`d rather be doing what we do and never know what`s going to happen than just wonder where in the premier league top four we`re going to finish this year.

Good times or bad, supporting City is much more fun.:chant6ez:

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5 minutes ago, Red Right Hand said:

I`d rather be doing what we do and never know what`s going to happen than just wonder where in the premier league top four we`re going to finish this year.

Good times or bad, supporting City is much more fun.:chant6ez:

Probably harder in the hard times but so much more rewarding in the good times. I'm either masking how I really feel or I genuinely think good times coming but I still have a good time. What would I write about on here if we won all the time? 

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4 minutes ago, JoeAman08 said:

Probably harder in the hard times but so much more rewarding in the good times. I'm either masking how I really feel or I genuinely think good times coming but I still have a good time. What would I write about on here if we won all the time? 

You only have to look at when a random thread on here somehow evolves into people reminiscing about a Tuesday night trip to Scunthorpe in 1986!

If that was a Man Utd forum it would go something like `Well, I saw us play Stoke on TV and it reminds of when I saw the game against WBA on telly three years ago`

 

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No 21st is unacceptable I'm afraid. We have to make progress in this league or watch our competitors continue to open up a gap between them and us.

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8 minutes ago, OddBallJim said:

No 21st is unacceptable I'm afraid. We have to make progress in this league or watch our competitors continue to open up a gap between them and us.

Which is fair enough but I don't think it captures the spirit of the thread. If you were offered 21st right now guaranteed would you take it? Other option being we could finish anywhere including being relegated. So one is guaranteed safety but poor position and the other means say a 10-15% chance of relegation. 

Only as you as you were the last to comment. That's how I interpreted the question posed. Guaranteed safety or take our chances? 

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I would snap your hands off for 21st at this moment. We have been in freefall with little to suggest we can turn this around. Whoever is manager they must maitain our Championship status as an absolute minimum.

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On 31/12/2016 at 20:08, JoeAman08 said:

Which is fair enough but I don't think it captures the spirit of the thread. If you were offered 21st right now guaranteed would you take it? Other option being we could finish anywhere including being relegated. So one is guaranteed safety but poor position and the other means say a 10-15% chance of relegation. 

Only as you as you were the last to comment. That's how I interpreted the question posed. Guaranteed safety or take our chances? 

Fortune favours the bold. Complacency has burdened our club for a very, very long time.

Personally, at this stage of the season I would not take 21st under the conditions you have described here. Still so much to play for, so a gamble worth taking.

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On ‎12‎/‎31‎/‎2016 at 18:27, JoeAman08 said:

This time last year we were what 23rd? on what? 20 points? 6 places higher and 7 points more seems an improvement especially when we've lost our main striker in the last week of the window. 

As for the main question, I'd take 21st. Staying up is important. We had no problems recruiting this year(opinions on players aside). We wouldn't have problems next summer. Our young players are a year older and wiser. It's like you guys expect top 6 every year. Our second year up and staying up is still important. You can go from relegation candidates to promotion contenders in a year. We're still progressing behind the scenes the pitch bit will catch up soon. 

very few expected top six, hoped maybe

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22 minutes ago, pillred said:

very few expected top six, hoped maybe

I thought that if we were in top 10 at Xmas, we could use the window to have a right go.  Alas!

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On 31/12/2016 at 18:27, JoeAman08 said:

This time last year we were what 23rd? on what? 20 points? 6 places higher and 7 points more seems an improvement especially when we've lost our main striker in the last week of the window. 

As for the main question, I'd take 21st. Staying up is important. We had no problems recruiting this year(opinions on players aside). We wouldn't have problems next summer. Our young players are a year older and wiser. It's like you guys expect top 6 every year. Our second year up and staying up is still important. You can go from relegation candidates to promotion contenders in a year. We're still progressing behind the scenes the pitch bit will catch up soon. 

This time last year we were 22nd. With 21 points. But a significantly worse goal difference, -21. So if there is "progress" it is most obvious in the "we're only losing by the one goal!" thing.

What is causing the panic is the current trajectory of our form and fortunes. What would it look like if someone knocked up one of them graphs illustrating this? Worrying? We have made some progress (two more wins than last season; a much better GD) but is it enough? And have we seen the last of it?

Our current form is ten defeats in thirteen league games, and none of us know when or if this run will end this season. This leads to anxiety and some of us flapping more than others.

 

Finally, please stop saying that we "lost" our main striker in August. That makes us sound powerless, hopeless. Like we have no say in these matters. We decided to sell him and take the money, when he had two years left on his contract (I believe?) So, we chose to take the large amount of money now (thus meeting spectacularly one of the 5 pillars requirements) before signing a replacement/or another forward, and run the risk of not getting someone in; or we thought an 18 year old and Wilbs would be enough, at least until January. 

All this in the knowledge that the new loan situation would not allow us to bring anyone under contract in until January, in the event of injury or poor form etc to our two forwards.

This was an assessment made by LJ, MA and SL. And a decision they took, just like every other club was doing. 

 

There are many things in football where we have little or no power to decide or determine what happens. Or where chance is involved. Don't add to them.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

This time last year we were 22nd. With 21 points. But a significantly worse goal difference, -21. So if there is "progress" it is most obvious in the "we're only losing by the one goal!" thing.

What is causing the panic is the current trajectory of our form and fortunes. What would it look like if someone knocked up one of them graphs illustrating this? Worrying? We have made some progress (two more wins than last season; a much better GD) but is it enough? And have we seen the last of it?

Our current form is ten defeats in thirteen league games, and none of us know when or if this run will end this season. This leads to anxiety and some of us flapping more than others.

 

Finally, please stop saying that we "lost" our main striker in August. That makes us sound powerless, hopeless. Like we have no say in these matters. We decided to sell him and take the money, when he had two years left on his contract (I believe?) So, we chose to take the large amount of money now (thus meeting spectacularly one of the 5 pillars requirements) before signing a replacement/or another forward, and run the risk of not getting someone in; or we thought an 18 year old and Wilbs would be enough, at least until January. 

All this in the knowledge that the new loan situation would not allow us to bring anyone under contract in until January, in the event of injury or poor form etc to our two forwards.

This was an assessment made by LJ, MA and SL. And a decision they took, just like every other club was doing. 

 

There are many things in football where we have little or no power to decide or determine what happens. Or where chance is involved. Don't add to them.

 

 

Re Kodjia i get that. It was a decision they made and they thought we lose our short term hopes but gain finances that help us grow for the future.That should be taken into account by the fans though. I imagine SL gives LJ some slack by knowing this. The club may have to take a step back at times to take 2 steps forward. It seems really silly now that relegation seems more possible than ever but I don't think we are serious relegation candidates. Staying up may not be progress from last year to this but we've progressed in the academy and in the young players we bought. Also shown bigger clubs we can improve their young players for loans. It's all small things that'll help us grow next year and beyond. 

The current form is shocking and I've got no problem with people being nervous about our form and prospects for staying up. Personally, while concerned with the form, think we'll end up quite comfortably mid table after this window. I just feel we as fans should be a little more patient with the club and staff. Know that not everything we do has this year in mind and have faith that we will stay up and get better in the coming years. 

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....and in fairness, playing one up top has meant even one of ther strikers we brought in, hasn't really been needed.  LJ said Paterson or Tomlin could play alongside if needed.

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2 hours ago, Jack Dawe said:

This time last year we were 22nd. With 21 points. But a significantly worse goal difference, -21. So if there is "progress" it is most obvious in the "we're only losing by the one goal!" thing.

What is causing the panic is the current trajectory of our form and fortunes. What would it look like if someone knocked up one of them graphs illustrating this? Worrying? We have made some progress (two more wins than last season; a much better GD) but is it enough? And have we seen the last of it?

Our current form is ten defeats in thirteen league games, and none of us know when or if this run will end this season. This leads to anxiety and some of us flapping more than others.

 

Finally, please stop saying that we "lost" our main striker in August. That makes us sound powerless, hopeless. Like we have no say in these matters. We decided to sell him and take the money, when he had two years left on his contract (I believe?) So, we chose to take the large amount of money now (thus meeting spectacularly one of the 5 pillars requirements) before signing a replacement/or another forward, and run the risk of not getting someone in; or we thought an 18 year old and Wilbs would be enough, at least until January. 

All this in the knowledge that the new loan situation would not allow us to bring anyone under contract in until January, in the event of injury or poor form etc to our two forwards.

This was an assessment made by LJ, MA and SL. And a decision they took, just like every other club was doing. 

 

There are many things in football where we have little or no power to decide or determine what happens. Or where chance is involved. Don't add to them.

 

 

What you fail to take account of however is Kodjia didn't want to be here and in the week before the window shut asked not to be played. When he did play prior to that he was a shadow of himself and took to social media to force the move. 

We had a choice to make but only one viable option; the one we took. We lost him no doubt by the actions he took. 

What I find refreshing however is that we didn't allow ourselves to get caught pants down and panic buy straight after. 

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5 hours ago, 29AR said:

What you fail to take account of however is Kodjia didn't want to be here and in the week before the window shut asked not to be played. When he did play prior to that he was a shadow of himself and took to social media to force the move. 

We had a choice to make but only one viable option; the one we took. We lost him no doubt by the actions he took. 

What I find refreshing however is that we didn't allow ourselves to get caught pants down and panic buy straight after. 

Oh, I have taken that into account.

If this were the first example of this sort of thing happening in football, you could understand us getting caught out. But it happens over and over. Berahino, anyone? We have a coach with "emotional intelligence." And he and Ashton didn't see a bid coming in late for a 20 goal striker? And a 20 goal striker not wanting to move to one of the big guns in this league?  How often does a 20 goal striker in any league get through a transfer window without serious bids being made for him? You are far too kind to LJ and MA.

It is the job of LJ and Ashton to be on top of exactly this sort of thing. If they are not, we are always going to struggle at this level of football. If they are incapable, we need people who are capable. What good is that £11m doing us now? 

 

We have been caught pants down - the past two months show that. To my eyes, LJ is having his "pants pulled down" by this level of football every week. Adam Matthews at centre half? 

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6 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Oh, I have taken that into account.

If this were the first example of this sort of thing happening in football, you could understand us getting caught out. But it happens over and over. Berahino, anyone? We have a coach with "emotional intelligence." And he and Ashton didn't see a bid coming in late for a 20 goal striker? And a 20 goal striker not wanting to move to one of the big guns in this league?  How often does a 20 goal striker in any league get through a transfer window without serious bids being made for him? You are far too kind to LJ and MA.

It is the job of LJ and Ashton to be on top of exactly this sort of thing. If they are not, we are always going to struggle at this level of football. If they are incapable, we need people who are capable. What good is that £11m doing us now? 

 

We have been caught pants down - the past two months show that. To my eyes, LJ is having his "pants pulled down" by this level of football every week. Adam Matthews at centre half? 

Berahino? That's the perfect example of us doing the right thing. He's now 6m of his deal left and West Brom going to get a fraction of prior offers; if even f all. 

Yes we should have planned to replace and ought to have replaced. Unfortunately until the money is in the bank we don't know what we have to spend; if we spend before suitors know what to offer for Kodjia and we might cut ourselves short. 

I agree it didn't end up perfect for us, but with Tammy stepping up as he has it did near about close enough. 

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6 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Berahino? That's the perfect example of us doing the right thing. He's now 6m of his deal left and West Brom going to get a fraction of prior offers; if even f all. 

Yes we should have planned to replace and ought to have replaced. Unfortunately until the money is in the bank we don't know what we have to spend; if we spend before suitors know what to offer for Kodjia and we might cut ourselves short. 

I agree it didn't end up perfect for us, but with Tammy stepping up as he has it did near about close enough. 

You are being very, very generous to the people that make the big decisions at this club.

To my mind, when you are relying on the January transfer window to save your neck/season, you probably made a mess of the previous window. It's not like we have been plagued with injuries. Quite the opposite, I'd say

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2 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

You are being very, very generous to the people that make the big decisions at this club.

To my mind, when you are relying on the January transfer window to save your neck/season, you probably made a mess of the previous window. It's not like we have been plagued with injuries. Quite the opposite, I'd say

Perhaps I am. But the again nigh on 75% rely upon January to save their neck or season. Half to save their neck, half to consolidate their promotion/playoff push. 

I think you're being very harsh. 

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5 minutes ago, 29AR said:

Perhaps I am. But the again nigh on 75% rely upon January to save their neck or season. Half to save their neck, half to consolidate their promotion/playoff push. 

I think you're being very harsh. 

Probably somewhere between your generosity, and my harshness, lies the truth of the matter! Not that we'll ever know, or be able to put a finger on it

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3 minutes ago, Jack Dawe said:

Probably somewhere between your generosity, and my harshness, lies the truth of the matter! Not that we'll ever know, or be able to put a finger on it

Agree.

I'm probably a bit too lenient for sure. Today really has tested my patience. I'm still seething that our club sees fit to not have Moore on the bench when a 'made of glass' rb who has flattered to deceive plays centre back (albeit AM had a respectable game). 

My patience is wearing thin; and I wanted and still want LJ. I believe Cardiff is a big game though. 

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1 hour ago, 29AR said:

Agree.

I'm probably a bit too lenient for sure. Today really has tested my patience. I'm still seething that our club sees fit to not have Moore on the bench when a 'made of glass' rb who has flattered to deceive plays centre back (albeit AM had a respectable game). 

My patience is wearing thin; and I wanted and still want LJ. I believe Cardiff is a big game though. 

Agree with pretty much all that, except I'm wavering even more than it sounds like you are on whether I still want LJ in charge.  For me we have to beat Fleetwood and Cardiff, especially given the tough run of fixtures we have coming up after that. Anything less than two wins and I think it has to be the end of the road. 

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3 minutes ago, LondonBristolian said:

Agree with pretty much all that, except I'm wavering even more than it sounds like you are on whether I still want LJ in charge.  For me we have to beat Fleetwood and Cardiff, especially given the tough run of fixtures we have coming up after that. Anything less than two wins and I think it has to be the end of the road. 

To be honest I've ran out of love with the domestic cups so I kinda ignore them - I won't be at the game. Probably why fleetwood I'm not interested in the result. As a squad for confidence can see why it's massively important. 

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3 minutes ago, 29AR said:

To be honest I've ran out of love with the domestic cups so I kinda ignore them - I won't be at the game. Probably why fleetwood I'm not interested in the result. As a squad for confidence can see why it's massively important. 

Fair enough. I won't be at the game either. As you say, it's about confidence more than the fact I want a cup run.  Losing to a team a division below us is the last thing we need at the moment (plus if we win it pushes the Villa game back a few weeks due to fixture congestion which makes our January run of games look easier!) I also think that, if LJ cannot beat a team a division below us at home, it becomes that much harder to justify him continuing in the job. 

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I think the reality is that we all expected a lot more from the team given the finish to last season and the early form shown. The loss in form has come really from nowhere and was not expected. We have picked up few points and are now in a relegation fight. We have lost winnable games and also in games from winning positions. The conceding of late goals shows a lack of composure to see games out. We need some reinforcements to strengthen the team and I think we are not as good as we thought we were. The key now is simply to stay in the division and then re-evaluate at the end of the season. This should also include the manger's position. Sacking him now is not what is needed when he was the "stand out candidate" less than 1 year ago according to MA.  

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