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Rosenior, very harsh on our club


Ska Junkie

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19 hours ago, Super said:

Why should playing the game matter? Lots of managers have never played the game.

Really? I'm not having a go but am genuinely interested as it used to be just Lawrie McMenemy who famously hadn't played professionally (though did play a couple of seasons at non league Gateshead).

I think having played professional football helps but it shouldn't be effectively a prerequisite as I thought it still was.

My particular bugbear is when great players get parachuted into plum managerial positions despite having no managerial experience. How having a sweet left foot pass qualifies you for management escapes me.

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9 hours ago, You Do The Dziekanowski said:

 

Yes, He does have an argument as he was the most qualified but there may well be a reason other than race and qualifications for as to why he didn't get the job.

Surely not better qualified than Dave Burnside?

was Fawthrop just meant to be a stop gap anyway perhaps?

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2 minutes ago, richwwtk said:

As I remember it Fawthrop getting the job was no surprise at the time. He'd been the most 'high profile' of the three during their brief stint, and seemed the logical choice.

It was no surprise but there was general disappointment as it was felt that the club had shown its lack of ambition by appointing one of the three caretaker managers. It wasn't that people wanted Burnside or Rosenoir over Fawthrop, it was rather that an experienced external candidate was expected rather than one of the three inexperienced caretakers.

Nobody IIRC was calling for Rosenoir to be appointed and nobody was calling for the other two either.  Rosenoir would equally have been a disappointing appointment at the time.

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12 hours ago, 8menhadadream said:

While I agree with the sentiment bs3, it doesn't prove that the only reason he didn't get it was that he was black. It sullies the reputation of the club.

This takes the biscuit someone called 8menhadadream being rather precious about the reputation of our club being sullied. EVERYONE who is old enough to have experienced and taken in the events of 1982 would say that those eight men had a nightmare. Not one of them had a dream. Thus, someone who likes, as the Americans are fond of doing, to airbrush history, and perpetuate a myth about our club that 100% wasn't the case so that a romantic spin can be put on events that wasn't the case and put the club, and those players, in a better light is at it again with the airbrush because Leroy Rosenior told something about the club he perceives to have been the case, and it looks like that to a lot of us, which is at odds with what 8menhadadream sees through his rose tinted spectacles.

As The Dolman Pragmatist correctly states, Rosenior wouldn't have a letter from the Board at the time saying he didn't get the job because he was black. That sort of thing would never happen, though I would suggest that it was a bit more likely than you ever possessing a letter from one of the Ashton Gate 8 saying that back in 1982 they had a dream to save their football team by tearing up their lucrative contracts.

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19 hours ago, Super said:

Why should playing the game matter? Lots of managers have never played the game.

To the exceptional it will not.

But having played the game is of real benefit. Experiences can be shared, being able to join in and demonstrate ideas is a skilled learning style.

Being able to play is not a requisite to gain coaching badges, but being able to demonstrate what you want is of benefit.

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3 hours ago, handsofclay said:

This takes the biscuit someone called 8menhadadream being rather precious about the reputation of our club being sullied. EVERYONE who is old enough to have experienced and taken in the events of 1982 would say that those eight men had a nightmare. Not one of them had a dream. Thus, someone who likes, as the Americans are fond of doing, to airbrush history, and perpetuate a myth about our club that 100% wasn't the case so that a romantic spin can be put on events that wasn't the case and put the club, and those players, in a better light is at it again with the airbrush because Leroy Rosenior told something about the club he perceives to have been the case, and it looks like that to a lot of us, which is at odds with what 8menhadadream sees through his rose tinted spectacles.

As The Dolman Pragmatist correctly states, Rosenior wouldn't have a letter from the Board at the time saying he didn't get the job because he was black. That sort of thing would never happen, though I would suggest that it was a bit more likely than you ever possessing a letter from one of the Ashton Gate 8 saying that back in 1982 they had a dream to save their football team by tearing up their lucrative contracts.

Crikey, I will take off my 'rose tinted spectacles' then, I took it from the song by the way and remember only too well the painful goings on in 1982, not that it's relevant to this discussion.

My point was that to claim the club didn't give him the job because of his colour, without proof, sullies the name of this club and it's something I don't think is necessary, that's all. If he has proof then fine but I doubt it somehow.

Thanks for the history lesson by the way and the assumptions about me They couldn't be further from the truth but let's not worry about that eh! 

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13 minutes ago, 8menhadadream said:

Crikey, I will take off my 'rose tinted spectacles' then, I took it from the song by the way and remember only too well the painful goings on in 1982, not that it's relevant to this discussion.

My point was that to claim the club didn't give him the job because of his colour, without proof, sullies the name of this club and it's something I don't think is necessary, that's all. If he has proof then fine but I doubt it somehow.

Thanks for the history lesson by the way and the assumptions about me They couldn't be further from the truth but let's not worry about that eh! 

The assumptions are based on you using a name that clearly misrepresents what actually occurred in 1982. I do apologise for having a dig at you as I dare say you are a decent chap and a great fan of the club I too support. As a historian with a first in Classics I suppose it just gets my goat when history is rewritten until such a point where it is no longer representative of what actually occurred.

I know about the song and that gets my goat too as I fear younger supporters will end up believing that the Ashton Gate 8 fell on their swords because they had a dream to save Bristol City. They didn't. They tore up their contracts, after obtaining advice from Gordon Taylor the PFA chairman, because there was a chance they would receive a bit of money as well as the proceeds from a PFA testimonial match, whereas had they not torn them up they would've got sod all and a load of vitriol from City fans for destroying their club. For the players involved and their families it was a nightmare scenario. Hence it gets my goat when it is portrayed as something totally different. Once again, I do apologise that your name on here sparks such a reaction from me.

As for Rosenior having to prove that he was a victim of racism, as The Dolman Pragmatist so correctly said, he is hardly likely to be in possession of a letter from the board telling him that they didn't appoint him because they were racist. Just as Martin Luther King didn't have letters from State Governors saying that they were racist which he could display when he undertook his famous marches. Yet we all know now that states, particularly in the Deep South, were as good as run by the KKK. 

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2 minutes ago, handsofclay said:

The assumptions are based on you using a name that clearly misrepresents what actually occurred in 1982. I do apologise for having a dig at you as I dare say you are a decent chap and a great fan of the club I too support. As a historian with a first in Classics I suppose it just gets my goat when history is rewritten until such a point where it is no longer representative of what actually occurred.

I know about the song and that gets my goat too as I fear younger supporters will end up believing that the Ashton Gate 8 fell on their swords because they had a dream to save Bristol City. They didn't. They tore up their contracts, after obtaining advice from Gordon Taylor the PFA chairman, because there was a chance they would receive a bit of money as well as the proceeds from a PFA testimonial match, whereas had they not torn them up they would've got sod all and a load of vitriol from City fans for destroying their club. For the players involved and their families it was a nightmare scenario. Hence it gets my goat when it is portrayed as something totally different. Once again, I do apologise that your name on here sparks such a reaction from me.

As for Rosenior having to prove that he was a victim of racism, as The Dolman Pragmatist so correctly said, he is hardly likely to be in possession of a letter from the board telling him that they didn't appoint him because they were racist. Just as Martin Luther King didn't have letters from State Governors saying that they were racist which he could display when he undertook his famous marches. Yet we all know now that states, particularly in the Deep South, were as good as run by the KKK. 

I hadn't thought about the name like that HOC and you're right, it's a representation of a very dark time in our history. I will change it.

The whole 'colour' thing just doesn't sit well with me TBH. If someone you worked with insinuated racism on your part, I'm sure you wouldn't be happy and neither would I. Is this so different? It seems easy for someone to use racism as an excuse but it's only 1 way and there is no real right of reply for the club in this case.

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18 hours ago, bcfcfinker said:

He's described a situation he was in and indicated that it might be because he was not white. He has raised a legitimate concern so I have no idea why some people are getting uptight about it (some people doth protest too much). He then goes on to describe losing out to Danny Wilson and is most gracious about it.

To me, I suspect he's describing the 'old boys network' and not racism. Something I suspect most people have come up against at one time or another.

He's seems to be suggesting, publicly, that one or more of the individuals involved in not recruiting him are racist. I'm glad I'm not one of them. 

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15 minutes ago, CotswoldRed said:

He's seems to be suggesting, publicly, that one or more of the individuals involved in not recruiting him are racist. I'm glad I'm not one of them. 

Sad to play the race card. No surprise he is selling a book. Does he slag off West Ham?

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1 hour ago, Ska Junkie said:

I hadn't thought about the name like that HOC and you're right, it's a representation of a very dark time in our history. I will change it.

The whole 'colour' thing just doesn't sit well with me TBH. If someone you worked with insinuated racism on your part, I'm sure you wouldn't be happy and neither would I. Is this so different? It seems easy for someone to use racism as an excuse but it's only 1 way and there is no real right of reply for the club in this case.

That new name meets with my approval and doesn't get my goat at all. It only takes for Mike Hunt Hertz to change his name and my goat will be pretty lonely because nobody will be getting him.

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2 hours ago, Ska Junkie said:

The whole 'colour' thing just doesn't sit well with me TBH. If someone you worked with insinuated racism on your part, I'm sure you wouldn't be happy and neither would I. Is this so different? It seems easy for someone to use racism as an excuse but it's only 1 way and there is no real right of reply for the club in this case.

Well, how happy I would be would depend on whether I had been racist or not.  If I had been, it might be the wake-up call I needed.  The notion that black people use racism as an excuse for under-achieving is, to be honest, rather stereotypical discriminatory behaviour.  Rather than dismissing it out of hand, the first thing you'd want to do was examine whether there was any truth in it.  

I'm involved in higher education.  Young black men typically under-achieve in higher education in this country.  Do you think that is because they are let down by the system, or because as a whole young black men are less intelligent than young white men?  The fact is that if any minority group statistically underachieves, there is likely to be something in it.

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On 3/27/2017 at 01:02, RedDave said:

He thinks he was hard done by based on his skin colour.  Nobody can dispute that other than the decision makers at the time.  I assume he truly believes it so I don't see what's wrong with him voicing it.  

For him then to get abuse for it is astounding really 

Not sure he is getting abuse.

I think its more astounding that he draws his own conclusions and then thinks..... It can't be me that isn't good enough, it must be because its the colour of my skin. 

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9 hours ago, The Dolman Pragmatist said:

How do you know he doesn't have anything to back it up?  I think his point about the relative merits of himself, Dave Burnside and Tony Fawthrop speaks for itself.  Fawthrop was the most preposterous appointment the club has ever made; Rosenior was clearly the better qualified candidate.  Given that he presumably does not have a letter from the club saying "We're not give you the job because we're racist", I think he is entitled to suggest, based on his personal experience, that the decision was not entirely football-related.

No he's not entitled to suggest it, because TF was the clear favourite. 

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20 hours ago, shelts said:

He didn't get the job and went on to do wonders in management. Same as Ince, shite managers who aren't white. Still shite managers. The race card. Boring 

I think over the period of time there has been a very high percentage of extremely poor white managers, just saying.

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4 hours ago, handsofclay said:

The assumptions are based on you using a name that clearly misrepresents what actually occurred in 1982. I do apologise for having a dig at you as I dare say you are a decent chap and a great fan of the club I too support. As a historian with a first in Classics I suppose it just gets my goat when history is rewritten until such a point where it is no longer representative of what actually occurred.

I know about the song and that gets my goat too as I fear younger supporters will end up believing that the Ashton Gate 8 fell on their swords because they had a dream to save Bristol City. They didn't. They tore up their contracts, after obtaining advice from Gordon Taylor the PFA chairman, because there was a chance they would receive a bit of money as well as the proceeds from a PFA testimonial match, whereas had they not torn them up they would've got sod all and a load of vitriol from City fans for destroying their club. For the players involved and their families it was a nightmare scenario. Hence it gets my goat when it is portrayed as something totally different. Once again, I do apologise that your name on here sparks such a reaction from me.

As for Rosenior having to prove that he was a victim of racism, as The Dolman Pragmatist so correctly said, he is hardly likely to be in possession of a letter from the board telling him that they didn't appoint him because they were racist. Just as Martin Luther King didn't have letters from State Governors saying that they were racist which he could display when he undertook his famous marches. Yet we all know now that states, particularly in the Deep South, were as good as run by the KKK. 

What i want to know is why your involving the 'goat in all of this.......

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56 minutes ago, Robert the bruce said:

I'll go for the Alien-would give a PowerPoint presentation a whole new slant..

Surely an Alien will have the wrong DNA - or none at all!

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